"GCI Wife"'s question

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[GCI Wife]

Wondering what advice Larry (or others) would give to a woman who married a GCI man (after seven years in the church) when her husband says he only married her for the sake of the gospel

and that he never loved her– marriage was the next step on the path to being an elder (of course this is 19 years and 3 kids later)



He struggles with depression and just today logged onto this site and began to feel fresh anger towards all things GCI- and how things were managed.

[Dipping my toes in....]

GCI Wife -



Oh my goodness, that’s gotta hurt to hear….. I feel really bad for you…..I don’t really have any advice, but I feel for you. That’s a really tough situation.

[Larry Pile]

In response to GCI Wife: First, let me apologize for not getting to this much sooner. I find it difficult to believe that any GC* leader would approve or even suggest that a man marry merely for the sake of ministry and in the absence of love. However, I clearly recall Dennis Clark making the statement (on Nov. 19, 1976, to be exact!) that “The only reason for marriage is to further one’s ministry” (these are very close to his exact words). That’s funny, but I don’t see that in Genesis 1, do you? Now that I think about it, I can see how an eager and immature young man might understand a remark like that as authorizing a pragmatic if loveless marriage. What a travesty! What about the commands in Eph. 5:25 and Col. 3:19?



More to your present need, though, I agree with enevievejones that you both ought to seek professional coun-seling rather than continue to live with the status quo or take a trip to Splitsville. I’m convinced that the Holy Spirit can cause love to grow where it is absent, and I am also convinced that this is his will for you (God is a God of love, and he “hates divorce” — Mal. 2:16). I don’t mean to sound glib or uncaring, or to just toss verses at you.



The fact that your husband has started to feel anger towards GC* for his (and your) current difficulty is actu-ally a good sign. Anger is a necessary, though difficult, phase to go through on the road to healing. He is going to need all the love and understanding and support you can give him, however difficult any of those may be for you at the moment.

[calgal]

I feel for this wife.  My story is differnent by similar.  I married my husband (a leader also) as he received a 'vision'.  I didn't love him but did so because of pressure to do so.  We had no marriage but a string of church meetings and bible memorization and prayer sessions.  I started to question the church and he dug in his heels, revealing he was first married to the church and made it very obvious that he would rather divorce me. I separated from (with three boys in tow) hoping he would follow and it never happened ...

Fast forward 13 years later and my sons grapple with the divorce. He is still in the church and sat my sons down. He point blank said he married me because I had similar ministry goals and I as pretty. 

This a marriage does not make.

Calgal

[Rebekah]

I was listening to the "swerver" message from Faithwalkers 2009 with the Whitneys and the Crosswhites. It was all about how the man should wait for god to lead them in choosing a wife. I'm pretty sure they didn't ever mention falling in love with someone.

Instead, it was all about watching a person carefully to see how they serve (a woman, naturally) and how committed they are to the church's mission. Then getting the ok from a leader.

Interestingly, the idea that a man could watch, wait, pray, and then approach a woman only to be turned down was never mentioned. Because why wouldn't any woman be thrilled to serve, clean up after, and raise the children of someone as wonderful as this godly GC guy, right?!

How horrible.

[boboso]

Ah, yes, I remember seeing this.

I remember a prominent kool-aid drinker (read: wannabe leader) that had gotten the ok to pursue a kool-aid drinking girl (as most were fresh out of college) and she flatly turned him down. The funny thing is that he never considered being turned down being that he was so in-line with "leadership". He was a little full of himself, so it was (I have to admit) extra funny.

The sad part of this is that the same guy just went to the next best looking available girl and within a period of 2 months, the new girl accepted his marriage proposal! To be fair, the marriage may still work, but it doesn't seem very likely.

As I've said 1000x before, the GCx church I encountered was never about love.

The goal was simple:

1. Build the current "leader"'s franchise.
2. Do whatever leadership tells you. Turn off your mind if necessary.
3. Rinse repeat.

[calgal]

Rinse Repeat made me laugh ... thanks for that.

So, when I finally tried to get help for that marriage that had nothing to do with love, guess what directive gave me after much prayer?

"God told me that he wants me to do all the think for you from now on."

I told him "bull****" (the only swear word I had uttered in 15 years and now I don't even consider it one!) .. he convulsed as if I had shot him with a machine gun ... so I said "bull****" again ... and he shuddered again .. so I did it again!!!! and again!!! and then I told him to pack his bags and move out.  I didn't even have divorce on my mind yet but I know I couldn't and wouldn't live like that ...

Amazing that love and integrity and intimacy are not part of the picture .... sad. So sad.

Calgal

[EverAStudent]

What sad and horrible stories.  Yet, I do not doubt them to be all true.

In the mid-80's my wife's sister came to live with us, and even though she likely was not a Christian (she valued her rebellious nature) she fell into the GCI community.  A male wanna-be leader in-grooming found her to be the most attractive female in the herd and started hitting on her. 

At just that time, we left GCI.  The leader wanna-be admitted he was only marrying my wife's sister because our elders had told him that marriage was a qualification of the pastorate.  We advised against it.  They married.  Within hours of their departure from the church to their honeymoon it was announced by the elders that the church was dividing, one splitting off GCI, the other staying under McCotter as the apostle.

Ultimately, both "churches" closed their doors, neither being truly viable.  The couple had a child, then divorced two years later. 

Oh yeah, GCI is very compassionate toward people...NOT

I still do not think my wife's sister ever came to know the Lord...GCI used her and spit her out...

[Linda]

I was thinking about the statistics quoted about the divorce rate in GC and was wondering if they include pastors and others who have been divorced and/or had affairs. Right off the bat, I can think of 4 current GC pastors who would have to say yes if asked that question. For example, I would imagine calgal's marriage is not included in that statistic.

[AgathaL'Orange]

The leader wanna-be admitted he was only marrying my wife's sister because our elders had told him that marriage was a qualification of the pastorate.

Huh?  That is very strange.  What about the Apostle Paul?  Or Jesus?  What a dumb idea.  They probably were using the qualifications of elder in scripture when it said, "husband of one wife" and thought that meant that you had to be married.  But oddly, the Bible also says that it's better never to marry if you can, simply because you'll have more time to devote to God.  Anyway, that is a very strange application on GC's part and a very sad story!

Also, Linda, I too thought of the statistics given recently on divorce.  I think the study would not be accurate because it would only include GCxers who stayed with the movement.  That would be rare, due to the social pressures in GCx.

[calgal]

I really appreciate all your support.  As of late, my three sons (17, 20 and 21 years of age) have been struggling with the aftermath of the divorce which happened 13 years ago.  They know my story and recently heard their dad's.  The only reason their dad gave for marrying me ... I think I posted it on another thread was that I was "bananas for the gospel' ..... it had nothing to do with love nor had nothing to do with who I was as a person.  He even told them he had two other women he was considering!

When I started questioning the church, he couldn't get rid of me soon enough.  I've received a few private emails from members who know who I am, hearing stories about how he "tried and tried to make the marriage work." What a martry for the church leadership!  I laugh as when ever I would approach him to talk about our marriage (which consisted of bible verse memorizations and payer sessions only - there was nothing social or personal about our marriage!) he would sit to "listen" to me and then nod off to sleep!.  We NEVER talked about any problem EVER!   He was married to church, he was never married to me.  And he will never 'divorce' that cult.

Calgal 

[AgathaL'Orange]

I think I posted it on another thread was that I was "bananas for the gospel' ..... it had nothing to do with love nor had nothing to do with who I was as a person.  He even told them he had two other women he was considering!

This is still going on today.  I don't understand it.  It's so practical, almost like checking a horse's teeth before buying. 

Wouldn't you feel just a little bit better about GC as a movement if they erred on the side of emotion, just once?  When I say that I mean a parent having mercy on a child who has done wrong and instead of spanking the child gives mercy by way of hugs or loving attention.  This would be viewed as inconsistency.  Or a man who was so head over heels in love with his future wife that he didn't much care if he had permission, that was the woman for him!  Or perhaps a father whose child doesn't want him to go on the men's retreat for the weekend, and instead stays home and play video games with said child.

GC makes the same kinds of mistakes robots might.  "Does not compute, does not compute.... Mercy is not consistent.  Love is a choice not an emotion.  Does not compute."

[Rebekah]

Good point.

At my old church, there was a joke about the marriage lottery: Girl A was the #1 draft; someone else was the #2, etc. It was mostly a joke started by the married guys with the unmarried ones who were trying to figure out who they were supposed to marry. The sad thing is that it was kind of true. I remember hearing about 1 guy who was considering 3 of the first-round draft picks at the same time. Poor girls!

God forbid you actually decide who to marry WITH the person in question and that you consider how you two feel about each other.

[EverAStudent]

As everyone who regularly reads the forum knows, I am no fan of the GC overlord-shepherding techniques.  Still, I also want to go on record with the following assertions:

1) Any marriage can work, even if you never knew the person before you married them (e.g. arranged marriage)
2) Love is a choice, it is a choice to do good for someone else regardless of the personal costs ( http://thefaithfulword.org/2006juneblogarchives.html#28 )
3) Emotions (of affection) tend to follow actions of love (love being defined as doing good for another -- http://thefaithfulword.org/2006julyblogarchives.html#8 )

That said, both marriage partners must want the marriage to work.  The Bible is filled with principles of communication, gracious speech, kind conduct, and pragmatic directives (like make sure you are employed so as to feed your family).  Any marriage can work if both folks work at it  ( http://thefaithfulword.org/2006julyblogarchives.html#26 ).  

In other words, I do not get too concerned so much that GC leadership pushed people together (though I think it is an abuse of power) but they never taught these folks how to live in a good marriage!  That I have a problem with.

[Linda]

EAS, I think I know what you mean.

IF, people are thinking clearly and understand what they are doing, and decide that they want to have an "arranged" marriage, I believe with God's help they can make that work and it's none of my business.

I think what I've seen that bothers me is in GC, it's not that clear what is happening and the men on the leadership path get the "pick of the litter" and also get the "fast pass" to marriage from leadership.

In addition, I've observed people having to wait a couple years to marry because the leadership wanted them to even though their parents thought it was a good idea. I totally understand a pastor saying he won't marry someone if he has Biblical reasons (unequally yoked, etc.), but the case I am thinking about wasn't that, it seemed more because the pastor "didn't feel the time was right yet".

[wastedyearsthere]

There is something wrong with picking a wife by how evangelistic they are (and that evangelism judged by handing out tracts or going door to door)  As you know things happen and we can't always go door-to-door or be handing out tracts.

I remember a "sister" being told by a brother (praying about marriage and getting counsel) that he wouldn't marry her and the leaders were counselling him not to marry her because she wasn't handing out tracts and doing cold turkey evangelism enough.  This gal had just lost a sister to death and was grieving.  

How disturbing is this?  Men only marrying for their own positions in leadership?!!!  I'm surprised the divorce rate is not higher (it probably is -- but GCx does so many things that are dishonest for the sake of the Gospel.  No women would want to know they were chosen because of how evangelistic they are!!  

[EverAStudent]

Hi Linda, I think you are closing in my meaning.  But it is my belief that the Bible is a bit more "extreme" than even that. 

Let's say one day a GCx spouse (husband or wife) comes to their senses and realizes they married under pressure from the leadership, and they married for all the wrong reasons, and worse, now they want to leave GCx.  Regardless of the poor planning, poor motives, and poor church environment of the marriage, that marriage is legitimate.  These two people are obligated to not merely "stay together," but to make it a real marriage relationship that edifies, comforts, and enriches each other.

Most young people already marry "for the wrong reasons."  They marry the prettiest girl in school.  Or they marry the team quarterback because of the prestige.  Or they marry the richest or most ambitious guy in the office.  So, marrying a person because they are a good evangelist is no worse than that.  In every case, is it not God's expectations that they strive to make the marriage work?

Sadly, many, even in GCx, have bought into the idea that Scriptures are silent on the matter and that divorce is fine when you outgrow your original spouse.  Or they believe divorce is fine if your spouse cannot conform to your church (my elders wanted my wife and I to split up because they found me too opinionated near the end of our time there and they wanted her and her music skills to attach themselves to another GCx buck--grrrrrr).

Marriage is a lifelong relationship to which one commits.  But to be a "good marriage" requires the willing effort of both persons.  Every problem can be solved in a marriage, IF both are willing to do everything necessary for the good of the other to solve them.

All that said, many of my present friends are divorced (about half of them, maybe more).  It is not a matter of retroactively judging such people, I don't do that, nor do I wish to.  They are already in a world of hurt.  What I do want to do is work to encourage everyone who is presently married today, or re-married, to work to turn their marriage into a good relationship.

[-end of sermon -]

[calgal]

The problem in GC is these guys aren't married to their wives, they are married to the church ... so how are the marriages to work? OR worse, how are these wives to be happy and fullfilled?  The loneliness is unbearable!!

[EverAStudent]

Insert Quote
The problem in GC is these guys aren't married to their wives, they are married to the church ... so how are the marriages to work? OR worse, how are these wives to be happy and fullfilled?  The loneliness is unbearable!!

No joke.

That comes from the problem that they do not understand what Paul said about making marriage a priority relationship.  Bad theology leads to bad practice and bad relationships.

[Linda]

Let's say one day a GCx spouse (husband or wife) comes to their senses and realizes they married under pressure from the leadership, and they married for all the wrong reasons, and worse, now they want to leave GCx.  Regardless of the poor planning, poor motives, and poor church environment of the marriage, that marriage is legitimate.  These two people are obligated to not merely "stay together," but to make it a real marriage relationship that edifies, comforts, and enriches each other.

I agree with this. Didn't mean to imply that I didn't in my comment.

Sadly, many, even in GCx, have bought into the idea that Scriptures are silent on the matter and that divorce is fine when you outgrow your original spouse.  Or they believe divorce is fine if your spouse cannot conform to your church (my elders wanted my wife and I to split up because they found me too opinionated near the end of our time there and they wanted her and her music skills to attach themselves to another GCx buck--grrrrrr).

Wow! I never heard of this happening in my church, but there was a lot I didn't know. For example, I went there 10 years and it took me til one month before we left to learn that to be a GCLI guy you had to be tapped on the back and invited into the fraternity to sit at the feet of your master pastor. I always thought that if you wanted to be a pastor you just expressed that desire to the leaders and they gave you some extra jobs to do to see if you could manage them well. So, obviously, I was in the dark on a lot of things.