Closet LGBTQ within GCx

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[FeministRebel]

Back in the early 90s, and way before 'The Rock' and a bunch of the modern ways these churches have of pulling college kids into their web, there were Bible studies in someone's dorm room. I remember we went, I think every Wednesday evening around 8ish or so in the evening, and we discussed some pre-canned lessons on handouts about various cultural topics, with college kids on all parts of the faith spectrum or lack-thereof. Some of the topics were of a serious nature, and some more lighthearted.

On one of the discussion nights, the elder (who back then, at his own admission, was not allowed to be a pastor by the other pastors because he was too arrogant), admitted to everyone that he had homosexual relations with his roommate in college. That it had been 'the devil' who had tempted him. And it just makes me wonder -- considering how Joshua Harris is now no longer a Christian and there are rumors about him being gay, and many other men who have come out and left the church.. It makes me wonder how many men or women within the church are LGBTQ and married, out of peer pressure, and religious obligation.

//Disclosure: I am pro lgbtq rights, and freedoms. I am not a Christian myself, so I do not personally consider these things to be wrong. I do, however, worry about people leading double lives and hurting their families, and themselves.

[blonde]

You mean this Joshua Harris: https://www.christianpost.com/news/joshua-harris-falling-away-from-faith-i-am-not-a-christian.html

Crazy. I know so many men and women who did date EVER based on his book, Kissed Dating Goodbye. If anyone really knows, he was a real womanizer in high school early college.. Sexually aware and charged persona? Yes. Now maybe he is gay. Wow. Fine. But all the lives he influenced not to date, nor look in a man’s direction. He maybe wrong again with this move. Sad.

Stay away from his writings and thoughts. He has a troubled life and soul.

[Janet Easson Martin]

“Transgender to Transformed”

God’s Real Love Changes Everything

It did seem the unhealthy separation of the sexes and the unhealthy codependence of same sex friendships in GCx produced an environment that could feed homosexuality. I think their culture attracted such behaviors. Then there was at least one public teaching where McCotter said that one should boast in this weaknesses, not hide it. VERY STRANGE.

The real life story below helps us be compassionate toward some who have struggled with this, but can ultimately change because of the REAL LOVE of God, not RULES, shown by those filled with his Spirit. This should also be encouraging to parents praying for their children continually exposed to the false hope of taking on unnatural sex identities or living in this lifestyle to find love and peace in their life.

Here’s Laura Perry’s story:

https://youtu.be/EVTYhfWr9u0

[Janet Easson Martin]

A Real Story Worth Considering

There is always hope in Our Good God for understanding, compassion, mercy, reconciliation and transformation for any who struggle with LGBTQ. I know very little about this area, but I know my God. Sounds like there are a number of people out there who are willing to share their story of redemption to encourage others. Jackie Hill Perry also seems to be one of them.

Listened to an interview with Jackie Hill Perry, who once lived as gay girl and then encountered God. His gospel and his goodness caused her to begin walking in her new identity in Christ. She is the author of the book, “Gay Girl, Good God” which is for anyone gay or straight, Non-Christian or Christian to overcome or just to gain understanding. Her foreword is written by another Christian author, Nancy DeMoss, who she felt discipled by in her writings.

Just found this story and this book this evening so I have not yet read her book, but wanted to pass on. From her interview she seems a very grounded believer.



Link to Book on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Gay-Girl-Good-God-Always/dp/1462751229

[Janet Easson Martin]

Jackie Hill Perry’s Powerful and Insightful Testimony

Oh my goodness!  How helpful this is for the Church to hear and understand! Wow!! It is very motivational no matter where you’re at. So glad I watched this. It’s only about 20 minutes long.


Link to her story on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANlI2k-ThwU&feature=youtu.be

[Janet Easson Martin]

“Who Told You That Was Who You Are?”

That is what this precious man heard the Holy Spirit say to him. He also heard him say, “That is not who you are.” How incredibly compassionate Jesus is toward this person. In his journey of leaving a LGBT life he also learned that God had called him lovingly to holiness.

He was raised in a Christian home, Christian Church, and even homeschooled but inwardly struggled with same-sex attraction and desires. He kept this from his family. He didn’t know what to do with these strange desires. His story describes his growing up and “acting out” these struggles, God’s faithfulness and unconditional love in his life, and the Holy Spirit helping him break from what he labels destructive behavior. Here is the link to his story.


Episode 6 - The Drip

https://youtu.be/Vu4fL0vyR9g

[Janet Easson Martin]

God Will Guide Us No Matter Where We Go

Even If We Make Our Bed in Sheol

Psalm 139

God knew he wouldn’t get my attention in a church. Churches didn’t care too well for people like me. Me, being a gay girl. A gay girl who knew better than to let my feet take me where I didn’t feel welcomed. So God came to my house. I was having a very “unspiritual” kind of night. The TV was on. The morning was hours away. My thoughts were boring and typical until they turned on me. As suddenly and randomly as Paul was struck blind on the Damascus Road, I had the unsettling thought that my sin would be “the death of me.”
-Jackie Hill Perry



Jackie Hill Perry: I Loved My Girlfriend—but God Loved Me More
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/september/jackie-hill-perry-gay-girl-good-god.html

Leaving Homosexuality and Finding Forgiveness - Jackie Hill Perry
https://youtu.be/8k9ajsiOaD4

[Janet Easson Martin]

This podcast about transitioning and detransitioning is SO encouraging. This person talks about the lie that people will be happy if they transition to a different gender. He warns of future emotional and physical damage to anyone investing in this deceptive physical mutilation. He is grateful to the Christian community for their compassion and support. If kids and adults are getting only one side of the story, they most definitely NEED TO HEAR the other side, especially from those who have experienced first hand this mentally, emotionally, and physically dangerous “change.”



Detransitioner Oli London Credits Jesus, Church… - CBN News
https://youtu.be/rKDbPkTcObE

[silasnelson]

Janet, I don't understand why you feel the need to continue to preach about issues that have no relation to you. Everything you're saying about detransitioning is entirely uncompassionate, misinformed, and very irresponsible. The stories you're cherry picking do not at all represent the larger body of science that supports transitioning as a way to bring down suicide rates in the LGBT and trans community.

Maybe if you don't know what you're talking about, it's not something you should speak authoritatively on. That's the same arrogance and self righteousness that makes GCC so toxic.

Posts like this drive away LGBTQ people from this form and make it a hostile place for them. Christians who are LGBT or ex-Christians who are queer done nothing to you so why do you feel the need to speak on the issue? As an LGBTQ person myself, every time i read one of your preachy devotional posts about the queer community, I so degraded and judged by you. Your posts drive hate. I know your intentions are probably not bad, but consider the effect of your actions. Everything you're saying about the queer community is destructive, harmful, and completely unnecessary.

[Huldah]

Hi, Silas,

Janet, I don't understand why you feel the need to continue to preach about issues that have no relation to you.

Speaking strictly for myself, these issues may not affect me directly, but I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of those who are affected. For example, when I see women athletes losing competitions, prizes, and scholarships to men who identify as women, I feel a tremendous sense of injustice on behalf of those women. They've spent their lives training to excel, but then they lose out to competitors who've gone through male puberty, with all the advantages of size, strength, and muscle mass that testosterone confers.

Or take the case of my grandchild's school. The teacher asked the class which students believe that homosexuality is a sin, and told them to raise their hands if they did. This had the effect of setting up  the kids from religious homes to be bullied by the other students. The kids were only nine years old. At their age, why are they discussing sexuality in school at all? It's mental and emotional child abuse to put children in the middle of an adult debate like that. But the LGBT lobby is way stronger than the Christian/conservative lobby in my state, so I not only have to hear about children being treated this way, I have to help fund it through my taxes.

These are some of the reasons people who have no direct relationship to the issues feel compelled to speak out. I could list so many more examples.

The stories you're cherry picking do not at all represent the larger body of science that supports transitioning as a way to bring down suicide rates in the LGBT and trans community.

You might want to look further into the actual science. I read recently that suicides are at their highest rate several years after transitioning, when the transitioner figures out that transitioning didn't actually resolve their problems in the way they were expecting. I'm sorry I don't remember the source, but you could certainly look into this further if you're interested.

I don't want trans people to die, any more than you do, but the de-transitioners have some important warnings to share, and they shouldn't be shut down or marginalized. Medical transtioning is a serious, life-altering decision. Some procedures are irreversible. Don't you at least believe that people deserve to hear both sides of the story before they go down that road? Or if you truly don't believe that, please explain why they aren't entitled to full disclosure. This is not a rhetorical question. If you really believe that potential transitioners don't deserve to hear both sides, I'd like to understand why.

Posts like this drive away LGBTQ people from this form and make it a hostile place for them.

This forum neither forbids LGTBQ advocacy, nor protects it. It's pretty much a free-speech zone. That means that sometimes we will engage in vigorous debate. I get that many people (Christians included) are conflict-averse, and I admit that I don't much care for online arguing myself. But just as you feel compelled to advocate for what you believe, those of us who hold to Biblical teachings on sex and marriage also feel compelled to speak up. So, I guess what I would say to LGBT folks is, they're welcome to join in the debate here, as long as they're arguing in good faith and not just making ad hominem attacks. This is not a "safe space" for anyone, not even for Christians, really. It never has been. This forum by nature attracts a certain level of conflict. There have been plenty of attacks and quarrels here in the past (although I wish that weren't the case), and there are no exceptions made for any particular group.

Perhaps honest debates about contentious issues are best had in person, between people with an already-established relationship of respect. Online forums, where strangers argue with other strangers, are probably the least productive way to go about it. But this is what we've got to work with, so here we are.

[silasnelson]

I won't spend a lot of time on your comments about trans women in sports or your own personal story from school because... I mean let's be honest you definitely don't know a trans athelete so that doesn't have anything to do with you. And that's definitely a weird story from your grandchild's school, but... too bad! Teachers do the wrong things sometimes. Both my parents have taught in public schools with the express intent of hopefully converting kids to fundamentalist Chrstianity, and that's bad too but nobody's losing their heads about it, it's just if a gay person does it then suddenly all gay people are groomers (which, just in case you didn't know, ALSO an idea totally not backed up by any data).
 

You might want to look further into the actual science.

You are completely and absolutely wrong about this. Why would you post something like that with confidence without researching it first?

"Data indicate that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth."

When the numbers are that high "I don't remember the source" isn't gonna cut it.

The following is from a 2019 study conducted by the UCLA Williams Institute, which is the largest study of transgender people as of 2015...

Unique Risk Factors

In addition to general risk factors, transgender people have additional risk factors, such as experiences of discrimination, stigma, family rejection, and lack of access to gender-affirming health care. Findings regarding these unique factors include the following:

• Experiencing discrimination or mistreatment in education, employment, housing, health care, in places of public accommodations, or from law enforcement is associated with a higher prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. For example, the prevalence of past-year suicide attempts by those who reported that they had been denied equal treatment in the past year because they are transgender was more than double that of those who had not experienced such treatment (13.4% compared to 6.3%).
  
• Those who reported that their spouses, partners, or children rejected them because they are transgender reported a higher prevalence of lifetime and past-year suicide attempts. Thosewho reported rejection by their family of origin, for example, reported twice the prevalence of past-year suicide attempts compared to those who had not experienced such rejection (10.5%compared to 5.1%).
• Respondents who had been rejected by their religious communities or had undergone conversion therapy were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts. For instance, 13.1 percent of those who had experienced religious rejection in the past year had attempted suicide in the past year; by contrast, 6.3 percent of respondents who had experienced religious acceptance in the past year attempted suicide in the past year.
• Experiences of violence, including intimate partner violence (IPV) are associated with higher prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. Over 30 percent of those who were physically attacked in a place of public accommodation reported attempting suicide in the past year, which is over four times the prevalence among respondents who were not similarly attacked.
• Those who had “de-transitioned” at some point, meaning having gone back to living according to their sex assigned at birth, were significantly more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts, both past-year and lifetime, than those who had never “de-transitioned.” Nearly 12 percent of those who “de-transitioned” attempted suicide in the past year compared to 6.7 percent of those who have not “de-transitioned.”
• People who are not viewed by others as transgender and those who do not disclose to others that they are transgender reported a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. For instance, 6.3 percent of those who reported that others can never tell they are transgender attempted suicide in the past year compared to 12.2 percent of those who reported that others can always tell they are transgender.
• The cumulative effect of minority stress is associated with a higher prevalence of suicidality. For instance, 97.7 percent of those who had experienced four discriminatory or violence experiences in the past year (being fired or forced to resign from a job, eviction, experiencing homelessness, and physical attack) reported seriously thinking about suicide in the past year and 51.2 percent made a suicide attempt in the past year.

We also found that there are some factors that are associated with lower risk of suicide thoughts and attempts for USTS respondents:

• Respondents with supportive families reported lower prevalence of past-year and lifetime suicide thoughts and attempts.
• Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had a substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.
• A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without such a statute.

The truth of trans suicide is not hard to find, and it's not hard to see what kind of talking helps or hurts the suicide rate if you do any research at all.

Or if you truly don't believe that, please explain why they aren't entitled to full disclosure. This is not a rhetorical question. If you really believe that potential transitioners don't deserve to hear both sides, I'd like to understand why.

Trans people are fully aware of the other side, Huldah, obviously. Everyone who transition makes a huge decision with a lot of thought and consulting with their loved ones and doctors. They know the changes are permanent. They're experts on it. They know far more about the pros and cons than you ever will. Saying that detransitioned people are happier or that people commit suicide more if they don't transition IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE. Listen, when these are made up people it's easy to make up your own narrative but like I have trans friends. Many. I know a ton of trans people. Trust, the story you're being sold is absolute bull****. It's completely divorced from reality.

But my main point regardless of your relevance to anything to do with LGBTQ people: why are these posts being made on the GCM forum? What do they have to do with GCC? The original post wasn't about this at all, so I don't understand why this is becoming just another place to preach your own flavor of Christianity vs a resource with actual information that relates to the topic at hand.... GCC. This isn't facebook, I don't understand what sharing detransitioning stories -- from OLI LONDON of all people are you KIDDING me -- does to further any conversation about GCC. Just seems like more proselytizing to me.

[Huldah]

There's a great deal I'd like to engage with in your last post, but because my time is so limited, I'm going to try to keep it short. Or at least short-ish.

I won't spend a lot of time on your comments about trans women in sports or your own personal story from school because... I mean let's be honest you definitely don't know a trans athelete so that doesn't have anything to do with you.

But why is it that you claim the right to stand up for other LGBT people, while at the same time telling me I have no right to stand up for other women? Why the double standard? Misogyny and sexism have everything to do with me.  I've certainly experienced my share of both. I have every right, and in fact a duty, to stand up for other women.

And that's definitely a weird story from your grandchild's school, but... too bad! Teachers do the wrong things sometimes.

This wasn't just a teacher doing the wrong thing. This was the natural outgrowth of my state's educational policies, which push developmentally inappropriate sexual information at young children. Besides, if a trans student were singled out and bullied for his beliefs, and if my reaction were, "Too bad! Teachers make mistakes sometimes," you'd be upset at my flippancy, and rightfully so.

You might want to look further into the actual science.

You are completely and absolutely wrong about this. Why would you post something like that with confidence without researching it first?

What makes you think I didn't? I read and listen to a lot of material. I don't take notes on any of it.

There was a time when I would painstakingly document things I post, with extensive links.  I would literally spend hours searching out the links to back up what I said. But then I realized that the documenting never made any difference to the other person, so I no longer go to the trouble.

However, if you're interested in following up on the idea, I suggest starting with some of Jordan Peterson's videos. He does cite studies and documentation. He interviews experts on the subject who probably see it from angles you've never even considered. For example, Jordan & his guests have cited data that shows that young people who identify as trans will typically reconcile with their biological sex by the time they're adults, as long as no attempts are made to transition them. But I don't take notes and I don't have time to go back and listen to several dozen hours of video, just to document who said what when. It's up to whoever reads this to follow up on it if they're interested. If they're not, so be it. Either way, the information is out there. And there are plenty of speakers and authors you could find if Peterson isn't your cup of tea. I mean people with actual research and academic credentials, not just preachers.

But my main point regardless of your relevance to anything to do with LGBTQ people: why are these posts being made on the GCM forum? What do they have to do with GCC?

But this was not the point you made in your first post. It would have been a fair point, with some merit to it, but the point you actually went for was saying that someone who isn't LGBT shouldn't comment on LGBT issues.

But that's not how we operate on this forum. Anyone can comment on anything. Opposing viewpoints are tolerated. (Your presence here is proof of that.) Men can have an opinion on abortion; Democrats can have an opinion on Trump and deSantis; non-Christians can have an opinion on the Bible. There's give and take. Pushback is expected. The one thing you can't do is come here and shut down opinions you disagree with. As you informed us earlier, there's now an ex-GCC group on Reddit. Their rules are much closer to your ideals, which is fine, because the mod there is entitled to run his own group as he pleases. But this is someone else's forum, paid for and maintained by someone who apparently supports the free exchange of ideas. He sets the rules here.

To be honest, reading your post, being told what I can or can't say, and told I'm too ignorant to be allowed any opinion (edit to add: and especially having my concerns about the welfare of women minimized! which was a big part of why l left GC), well, it was like a flashback to my time at Solid Rock (my GCx church). While you've rejected the teachings of GCx, there are echoes in your posts that suggest you may have internalized their authoritarianism. I can kind of understand that, to a degree, because it's very hard to throw off the baggage from that kind of experience. It's probably a lot worse for you because you were raised in it.

There's so much more I'd like to say, but I'm out of time, so I'll leave it at that.

[Huldah]

One quick addition: now that I know there's an audience (so to speak) for it, I will try to come back here and post sources as I encounter them in the future. But that won't be today and probably not tomorrow, either. It could be weeks or months in the future. Just whenever I come across relevant information.

Signing off for now.

[Lost Creature_Final]

I am with silasnelson on this.

How did a forum thread about LGBTQ ex-GCC members feeling unwelcome in GCx become highjacked by conspiracy theories, disinformation, and actual transphobia?

Is this not a place where ex-members can find support from others who have left?
Is this not a place where our commonality is the destructive system of GCx?

If this becomes just a place for Conservative leaning Evangelical ex-GCx members, does that mean that any other type of ex-GCx Member is not welcome?

If we have come to that, what sanctuary do we have to offer to those who are leaving or those who feel lost after leaving their GCx church?

[Janet Easson Martin]

We are each entitled to our opinion on here, just as people writing here have been entitled to theirs. There are usually rules to follow on Forums for the well-being of the Forum and the people reading and writing there, including keeping in mind it’s original purpose. Those who bash the real stories of others’ spiritual abuse in GCx; as in diminishing their experience, calling them liars, denying their pain, labeling them as “not following the Lord,” or practicing vengeance on their perpetrator; go against the purposes of this Forum. Much grace has been practiced here in allowing some very misplaced emotion and language to be posted. Other posts necessitate being removed.

As I understand there are other public sites that address the spiritual abuse of GCx Churches. At least one of these sites does not permit the posting of scripture from the Bible, and discourages or disallows some biblical points of view. That is the choice of the “owner/manager” of that site. So free speech is not fully in practice there.

Posting about spiritual abuse without the plumb line of the Bible gets awful messy. As we witnessed in GCx, not allowing certain truths of the Bible to be discussed or taught; and then, silencing questions and concerns of very unhealthy misuses of scripture by the leaders (which damaged believers’ faith and personal walk with Jesus) —created a dangerous mess. Telling others what they read in scripture must be interpreted by a select few, and they are wrong to follow what God is individually showing them and is supported by many sound christian teachers outside their “group” (and does not violate God’s truth in general) is crippling to say the least, and often harmfully imprisoning.  

Because we are imperfect people as God’s children still on this earth (awaiting a perfect body), the Bible will at times make our flesh uncomfortable and sometimes even offended. One of the most godly men on the earth was John The Baptist. Yet, when he was locked in prison with no deliverance in sight and sent his followers to confirm that Jesus was indeed the Messiah; Jesus sent him a message back instructing him not to be offended. Perhaps, it was not his Father’s will to rescue John. Believers can be offended by God maybe until they trust him implicitly in their very difficult situation. Satan wants us to lean on our own understanding so that we no longer trust God with our very real struggles.

[Linda]

How did a forum thread about LGBTQ ex-GCC members feeling unwelcome in GCx become highjacked by conspiracy theories, disinformation, and actual transphobia?

I have a couple thoughts.

First, this thread was started 3 years ago and went nowhere at the time. But the original poster, Feminist Rebel, had concerns about people leading double lives and hurting their families and themselves. This is a valid concern. It was not about LGBTQ ex-GCC members feeling unwelcome in GCx.

Why is it that disagreement leads to ad hominem?

Can't we discuss in facts and not speculation while passing judgment? A big issue here is that a church that teaches traditional marriage and that there are only two genders gets labeled as transphobic. Why is this? It is possible to believe someone is sinning and leave them alone. In fact, no-one can stop anyone else from sinning. We can, however, publicly state that we think certain things are sin and are harmful to people.

For example, if I publicly declare that I believe all these things on the list are things that when practiced keep people out of the Kingdom, am I hate filled?

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5: 19-21

If I am a Bible teacher or preacher or parent or friend shouldn't I be teaching people what I believe to be true? It doesn't mean they hate people to teach these things, in fact, it might be done out of love. Calling people haters shuts down the discussion and ends the argument because no-one can possibly prove they don't hate.

[Lost Creature_Final]

As I understand there are other public sites that address the spiritual abuse of GCx Churches. At least one of these sites does not permit the posting of scripture from the Bible, and discourages or disallows some biblical points of view. That is the choice of the “owner/manager” of that site. So free speech is not fully in practice there.

If you are referring to the ex-GCC subreddit, then you are mistaken in reading of those rules and why they are in place, as well as your definition of free speech.

In GCx, the Bible was used as a weapon and a way to bring others into submission under the leaders and their agenda.
As a result, it can be traumatizing for a lot of survivors, even Christian survivors to hear others use those same verses in their healing, even if it was used with good intentions.

Those rules are in place not to limit free speech, but to respect those who are still struggling in their journey as a result of the spiritual abuse that they struggled. This does not mean that Christians are not welcome there. It just means they have to be aware that not everyone in that space is Christian and that showing the love of Christ means not pushing boundaries in the same way that GCx pushed our boundaries.

In that way, everyone doesn't need to agree on everything. A few weeks ago, we had a good conversation about complementarianism vs egalitarianism in the Christian church. It was done in such a way that was respectful and in good faith, and a good conversation was had.

To paraphrase what Paul says in one of his letters, If I have free speech, but have not love, I am nothing.
And I believe that is what is lacking here on this forum.
There may be free speech. But, without love, it will only drive others away.

[Lost Creature_Final]

Can't we discuss in facts and not speculation while passing judgment? A big issue here is that a church that teaches traditional marriage and that there are only two genders gets labeled as transphobic. Why is this? It is possible to believe someone is sinning and leave them alone. In fact, no-one can stop anyone else from sinning. We can, however, publicly state that we think certain things are sin and are harmful to people.

For example, if I publicly declare that I believe all these things on the list are things that when practiced keep people out of the Kingdom, am I hate filled?

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5: 19-21

If I am a Bible teacher or preacher or parent or friend shouldn't I be teaching people what I believe to be true? It doesn't mean they hate people to teach these things, in fact, it might be done out of love. Calling people haters shuts down the discussion and ends the argument because no-one can possible prove they don't hate.

Here is the issue. Just like GCx used the Bible as a way for Christians to submit to their will and agenda, so do Christians often use these verses and others to do the same towards the LGBTQ Community.

While I do not believe your intent is to harm anyone in the LGBTQ Community, I do believe that the view that you are expressing does not take into consideration their history and that many have been killed by others using that same logic. So, of course anyone from the LGBTQ Community is going to be suspicious and scared when someone uses a bible verse to tell them why they are wrong.

Do you know anyone in your personal life who came out?
If so, have you listened to their stories?
So many of them are scared of the very real threat of losing their lives, which is not only recent history, but has been history for a while.
Many of them know people who have been killed or injured or threatened and the last thing they need is a Christian telling them that they are wrong.

If we are to show Christ's love, it means listening, even if we don't fully understand or fully agree.

[Linda]

If we are to show Christ's love, it means listening, even if we don't fully understand or fully agree.

Absolutely. And I hope you feel the same way about those with whom you don’t fully understand or agree with.

[silasnelson]

Can't we discuss in facts and not speculation while passing judgment? A big issue here is that a church that teaches traditional marriage and that there are only two genders gets labeled as transphobic.

This is very rich coming from you Linda. That is not at all the big issue here. The big issue here is that you all won't shut up about political talking points that have NOTHING to do with GCC. You're spamming the forum, making info harder to find, and creating a hostile environment for anyone who believes differently than you.

Linda in another thread you were complaining about LGBTQ wanting a safe place and saying this is a forum for free speech, not safety. Surely you can recognize how hateful rhetoric makes a place unwelcome. If I came on this forum EVERY DAY and posted about how Linda Janet and Huldah are out of line women who need to submit under the authority of their husbands and need to stop speaking and teaching publicly on this forum (1 Timothy 2:12), I think you could somehow recognize how horrific and judgemental that is. That's what ya'll do to LGBTQ people on this forum... FOR NO REASON. None of your anti-trans anti-gay talking points pertain to GCC at all. Go get a blog or a pulpit but like some people actually want to read about GCC. You're making that impossible.