Let's Talk About Sex

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[exshep]

The dress code issue struck me a being arbitrary and legalistic. The comment about Turtlenecks versus V necks did have me rolling my eyes. It can be a thorny issue as well.

We have no dress code. Come as you are. I know what our summers are like. Somehow I have to draw the line at shorts and tank tops on both men and women. It is a matter of personal preference and I decided to live with it.

We have some attractive sisters at church. Such is life in the big city. I would hope that I mature enough to set my own personal boundaries and to be a respectful gentleman about it.

The best piece of wisdom that I ever heard was actually in a support group:

One agian with the warmer weather comes the issue of dress. While we never advocate a dress code, we do ask that you be mindful of what you are wearing. … We are not telling you what to wear, but to be aware.

One clothing issue which did take me years to process were the elders telling a friend not wear a T-shirt with a cute innocous slogan because “it was not spiritual” I must confess I had to process a lot of anger over that one.

[AgathaL'Orange]

“We have some attractive sisters at church. Such is life in the big city. ”

There are cute girls in the country too!

And in small midwestern towns and cities!

[exshep]

“We have some attractive sisters at church. Such is life in the big city. ”

There are cute girls in the country too!

And in small midwestern towns and cities!

Ten points that was good. There is a campus fellowship I love and adore. I have found myself studying the cross beams in the ceiling of the hall where they meet. Of course having a wife and two cats does keep one on the straight and narrow.

[Adam Hirschhorn]

Boy those cats are tough customers.

[exshep]

Boy those cats are tough customers

Now that was an interesting rejoiner. Got a good chuckle out of it.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Adam, I think there was no response because perhaps we feel confusion? I am not sure what you mean by the Steve Bush, Steve Nelson thing. Do you mean that if we talk about Steve Bush, Steve Nelson will come by? Or do you think it’s innapropriate to talk about Steve Bush without him here to defend himself?

I think if there’s one thing Americans can talk about, think about, watch shows about, laugh about, and read about … it’s sex. I think we have talked about it quite a bit on this thread… and I hope we talk about it more.

I think the main point Gene was making in his original post was the invasive manner in which sex was talked about in GC. I would have to completely agree. I honestly can’t believe the obsession with it. Dating, courtship, purity, sex, etc. take up a lot of conversations, small group topics, etc. in GC. And quite frankly I was sick of it.

I, as well as many friends, really don’t feel the need to share at church functions any facet of my sexuality. It’s not because it’s dirty, it’s because it’s none of their business.

I really think that the church does not need to intrude in personal life unless they are asked. You call the pastor/priest when you need to talk about your sex life… the pastor doesn’t need to come to you. That’s inappropriate and offensive.

So anyway, I am not sure what you are expecting from us… but GC used to try to get us to talk about sex when we just wanted to hang out with our Christian friends having a normal time. So forgive us if we don’t want to constantly talk about it here.

I personally wish our society would keep sacred things like sex private and special instead of cheapening it by constantly focusing on it. That’s how I always felt after marriage conferences. I felt almost violated sometimes by the forced intimacy of the gathering. My husband and I are so much more than this facet of our relationship, and I always felt really intruded on. I quit going to marriage conferences. Actually, I’ve quit going to all conferences and retreats.

Am I the only person in the world that doesn’t want my “church life” to feel like “my family life.” GC seems to think that’s a perk… “We’re a family.” “We’re your brothers.” “We’re here to protect you.” Etc. etc. etc.

And all the while they said things like that I wanted to say out loud in church to the cloying, in your business pastors and leaders:

“GET AWAY. I have a mom and dad. I have siblings. I have a husband and kids. I have my mentors. I have my life. I have God. YOU are simply my church. Don’t overstep your bounds. Don’t tell me how to live out my marriage. Don’t talk to me about sex. Don’t tell me to spank my kids for every infraction. Point me to God. The rest is up to me.”

[nateswinton]

Agatha,

You summarized my thoughts much better than I could have in many ways. Sarah and I only went to one marriage conference and felt very uncomfortable the whole time. We talked again afterwards and agreed that one time was enough for us.

Alot of our reasoning also had to do with the fact that we don’t want to run our family like we see alot of our peers running their families. And I’m not diss-ing on my peers (Hi guys!), I’m just saying that Sarah and I stick out like a sore thumb sometimes, and we’re unique in some ways. And we don’t feel like “unique” means “crisis” or “unsubmissive”. It just means “unique”. So while we have been more than willing to ask questions on a huge range of issues, we aren’t on the lookout for unsolicited advice.

I grew up a missionary kid with parents who by their own words wanted to “burn out for Christ”. It was the cool thing to do in the 70’s and 80’s (non-GC*). I don’t want my kids to have the counseling and wounding I grew up with. The best advice I’ve gotten from my pastor that I’m gonna carry in the forefront of my mind: “Make sure you keep your wife and family as #1.” I appreciated that. That was very good.

[Kirsten]

Nate — You might not have gotten a completely balanced perspective of what all the marriage conferences are like though…since the one you went to was the one Mark Darling spoke at, right?

I’ve been to a few marriage conferences and listened to tapes of quite a few others…and i do have to say they vary A LOT based on who is speaking. Mark definitely has a “love it or hate it” style any time he speaks, and the marriage conference last year was no different. I bet if you listened to the tapes on the one a couple years ago by Herschel Martindale, you might get a really different feel. Another one that was really outstanding was the one maybe three years ago by Craig Coria. That one in particular was less “run your life this way” and more a lot of helpful insights into communication, etc.

Maybe this is a personality difference (so I don’t fault those of you who feel differently about it), but I guess I love getting as many insights as possible on a subject, whether its marriage or whatever…and then from there I can sort through those insights and compare them to my own understanding of scripture. I also just love hearing various speakers’ stories.

I definitely see things too in the lives of people around me, whether its pastors or church members or friends that I don’t want to emulate, and I see other things that I do want to absorb and possibly emulate. Sometimes its seeing the negative (or just “not my preference”) type of examples that most motivate me to want to try something different. Believe me, Tony and I have had conversations where I have cried and made him promise that we would never doing a certain thing the way family x or person y has done it, because it bothered me so much.

[Dipping my toes in....]

I really think that the church does not need to intrude in personal life unless they are asked. You call the pastor/priest when you need to talk about your sex life… the pastor doesn’t need to come to you. That’s inappropriate and offensive.



I mostly agree with this. But I think that it isn’t always necessarily inappropriate or offensive - i.e., I think there are shades of grey. There may be circumstances where it IS completely appropriate for a pastor to ask someone about their sex life without the individual going to the pastor first. And ya know, to me, it’s all about HOW and WHY the pastor brings up the topic. If I went to a pastor for pre-marital counseling and he/she said “And by the way, marriage is a big transition in a lot of ways. If you ever need any perspective, advice, etc. on any aspects of your marriage, even on your sex life, my door is open, ” I wouldn’t mind in the least. But if the pastor just pulled me aside one Sunday and asked me how my sex life was in a heavy-handed manner, well, that would NOT fly…..



Maybe this is a personality difference (so I don’t fault those of you who feel differently about it), but I guess I love getting as many insights as possible on a subject, whether its marriage or whatever…and then from there I can sort through those insights and compare them to my own understanding of scripture. I also just love hearing various speakers’ stories.



I tend to be this way, too. I’ve gone to several marriage conferences of varying structure and message, and it’s always been a mixed bag for my husband and I. We gained some helpful info and also heard some garbage. But at the end of the day, it was helpful to find out the good things, and learn some things we just don’t go for. Even more interesting have been the times when we disagree over whether some advice is garbage or not! But seriously, those conversations were valuable in helping us recognize some areas where we disagree and work towards compromises.

[nateswinton]

Kirsten,

That’s fair. It was Mark Darling, and I had a fairly good impression of him up until that conference. So many of the things he said made me want to cry and promise Sarah I’d never, ever be like that (even though it’d be completely against my nature in the first place). I remember being overwhelmed, “triggered”, and even flushed and sweaty a few times during that conference. Definately not my thing.

That might have been paired with some of the books that we tried to read and just didn’t like at all.

Maybe this analogy would make sense: A couple lives on the edge of a particluar village. The village tends to have alot of travelers come through on a regular basis. The couple makes a habit of inviting people in to spend the night for free, out of the goodness of their hearts. One night they accidentally let a rowdy man into their house who yells through dinner, advocates philosophies the couple can’t agree with on principle, and scares their children.

The couple are very hesitant from that night on to let anyone into their house.

There are alot of generalizations and summaries there, and I don’t want to be unfair and say who or what was what in the anaolgy, I’m trying to demonstrate a vague concept.

Sarah and I are hesitant to go for advice on several marriage, family and parenting issues, because we’re afraid of the rowdy homeless guy that trashed our house in the analogy.

The same couple might still be willing to go out into the village and feed the homeless and show travelers new to the town to the hotel and restaurants, they’re just cautious about inviting people into their home.

We’re quick to note ideas we really like, but we’re also quick to shy away from certain things. For example, we’ve really respected the way you and Tony talk to Madeline in “adult speak” rather than “goobidy goo” baby talk. There are actually a ton of parenting tips we’ve picked up from watching you and Tony. We really missed coming over the last few months there. We miss you guys in general.

At the same time, though, we don’t know many authors personally, and we don’t usually know the speaker at conferences personally. It makes us pretty jumpy being around people we don’t know who want to give us advice. I’m cautious about alot of “good ideas” that I haven’t seen tested first-hand.

[Anonymous]

The best advice I’ve gotten from my pastor that I’m gonna carry in the forefront of my mind: “Make sure you keep your wife and family as #1.”

I have to laugh at that, remembering my time in GC when a pastor brought up 1 Corinthians 29, “What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who are married should live as if they were not” as justification for a husband to rarely be home with the wife and kids because he is busy with his ministry (ie: more important things).

[nateswinton]

Sounds like your pastor and mine thought differently. I’m planning on doing a 3-week summer break trip to help out a regional church this summer. I barely got it OK’d with the pastors because my wife won’t be able to come.

The general thing is, do it with your family, or don’t do it. That’s how we roll in Ames, yo.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like your pastor and mine thought differently.

Yeah. Unfortunately he frequently speaks at GC national conferences and visits other churches many times a year to teach.

[exshep]

I have to laugh at that, remembering my time in GC when a pastor brought up 1 Corinthians 29, “What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who are married should live as if they were not” as justification for a husband to rarely be home with the wife and kids because he is busy with his ministry (ie: more important things).

The variances in GC churches never ceases to amaze me. Where I go, children are an important asset. Parental involvement with the children is to be cherished. The high school group is tight knit collaboration of parents and teens.
Many of the small groups are tight knit family affairs parents and children.

Curious group GC is. I can only imagine what the Thanksgiving dinners must be like.

[Adam Hirschhorn]

This thread is about sex. Sleeping in bunk-beds with your discipler to make sure you don’t get any…sex…crying like a little girl if someone shows an extra square inch of skin because you don’t want to think about…sex…wedding night woes because all they taught you was mediterranean fairy tales about…sex…or personally–doing so well at evading all of the thoughts and pressures until one miraculous night in your mid-thirties you wake up dreaming about a diamond and realize in a wet and palpable way that there is no avoiding the topic of sex.



Go hide in a hole if you want to. Cover your eyes and ears and mouth if you want to. Think about dead kittens if you think you need to. It isn’t going away.

[exshep]

This thread is about sex. Sleeping in bunk-beds with your discipler to make sure you don’t get any…..

Adam,

I can relate. The sexual repression was something else. Between GC and the groups I was involved, it did feel like ascetic flagellation. When I came out my hormones were really out of control. I was waiting for the lighten bolts. It was explained that happens when one leaves a sexually repressive enviroment. A woman who was in the Washington DC church wanted to date every man she met on the street. She was going crazy. Thankfully we were able to talk each other through that withdrawal period.

I had to find a healthy medium between turn or burn or engaging in sexual free for all. I finally came up with I thank God for my sexuality and leave it at that.

[Adam Hirschhorn]

I really think that the church does not need to intrude in personal life unless they are asked. You call the pastor/priest when you need to talk about your sex life… the pastor doesn’t need to come to you. That’s inappropriate and offensive.



I mostly agree with this. But I think that it isn’t always necessarily inappropriate or offensive - i.e., I think there are shades of grey. There may be circumstances where it IS completely appropriate for a pastor to ask someone about their sex life without the individual going to the pastor first.



I think it’s safe to say that lines were crossed when my small group leader, who was discipling the guy who was trying to disciple me, spent several hours one night giving me unsolicited council on why I shouldn’t make plans with a good-looking nonbeliever they found me lunching with downtown. Lo and behold, when I came back to town, I found that she was attending a different church in town. The question of why she and others were choosing Christ but choosing different churches was the first thing that got me really thinking.

[Miss Current]

Recently I read a post where someone mentioned that one of the early national leaders had an issue with sexual sin...I'm not sure if it was on the old forum or this new one.

Anyone remember where that post is?  I tried a few searches on this new forum but couldn't find it.

[puff of purple smoke]

Recently I read a post where someone mentioned that one of the early national leaders had an issue with sexual sin...I'm not sure if it was on the old forum or this new one.

Anyone remember where that post is?  I tried a few searches on this new forum but couldn't find it.

Try here: http://gcmwarning.com:8080/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=39

[Miss Current]

Does anyone know how I can get in touch with Gary Matthew Miller who posted on the orginal De-Commissioned blog site?

He had mentioned that one of the foremost leaders in the GC movement (an "apostle") was involved in some type of sexual sin.