the "Hate Me" phenomena

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[theresearchpersona]

I once heard a [GC's] pastor-in-training's own story about the gal he liked for years and who he started not "treating"...i.e. not interacting with at all because he liked her and it really really got to him/stayed on his mind and he had hard time even being in around her.

One day he was sitting right next to her but was turned to the left (she on his right) and completely ignored her as usual...and she asked him point-blank, "do you hate me"? And after this he said he realized how aweful it was that he wasn't even treating her like a sister.

Have you guys ever seen this in GC among people? I think it's symptomatic. From my own experience I can say that (prior to learning about the messed-up and evils of GC and its leadership etc.) I remember talking to a brother about a gal who I was thinking of talking to (we were both silent but things were getting awkward) and I noticed that he advised me to say nothing and referred me to the above-mentioned message (which in there too the pastor-in-training said "you shouldn't say anything" to someone if you're in love because it gets "awkward"). Personally I think GC tends to by nature and structure and teaching make things awkward for people rather than the other way around...for instance, I wonder about this thing where they refer to a man who started a worship-time with his wife even before she was his wife and use that to say be faithful in having a worship time with your family, but then of course there's all the taboo and teaching not to be alone with a woman...?

And has this, perhaps, ever become the case between leaders and non-leaders, i.e., not a "love" thing, but perhaps leadership for some reason just begins to neglect people?

[wastedyearsthere]

I had to chuckle at this post.  

This was DEFINITELY the way it was at the GCC church I was at.  If a "brother" liked a sister he would ignore her and not spend any time with her.  It was WEIRD in my opinion.  There were couples that got together that never had any time together at all -- they never dated, courted.  The brother got counsel for years and then went to a sister out of the blue and proposed marriage.  I know of at least 15 couples that was the case with.  

The relationships are very dysfunctional.  I wish I had left years earlier.

[Immortal_Raven]

I agree that it turned out to be dysfunctional.  I'd be hanging out with a couple guys and we be chatting.  Then one of them would say, "Did you know so -and-so are courting now?"  And my reaction was shocked, I wondered to myself, "I didn't even think they knew each other?  Am I not in the loop?  Do I want to be in the loop?  This is weird."  It's one of those out of the blue things that just took you by total surprise.

-Immortal_Raven

[wastedyearsthere]

Well at least they are now allowed to court!

In the 80's and 90's -- you got approached by a brother out of nowhere and proposed marriage!!  Seriously -- there were couples I knew of they barely knew each other and they married without courting/dating.  It is amazing they are still married (who knows if it is happily though)

You were not allowed to spend time with the opposite sex -- that was partiality.  I broke lots of rules -- but then I was not allowed to be a leader either!

[Linda]

In the 80's and 90's -- you got approached by a brother out of nowhere and proposed marriage!!

How widespread do you think this type of "arranged marriage" was?

The way I find myself picturing it is that the leaders sat around and decided who they liked and told the other leaders they thought God wanted them to marry this person (by the way, isn't that showing partiality just to come up in their mind with a person they liked and wanted to marry?), asked each other for "counsel" (permission), asked the girl (who had carefully been taught that obeying the leader was obeying God), and presto, the leader gets the girl he wants.

To quote Mel Brooks, "It's good to be the king."

I'm guessing the groom to be ran it by the elders rather than the bride's parents first.

This getting approached by the brother out of nowhere method is only a small step from what is happening in Texas at the moment. At least the girl got to say, "No." But, how hard would it be to say no to someone who you had been taught was speaking for God.

When a leader stands up and says you are to give the controls of your life to him in order to be in obedience, and you want to follow God, it would be really hard to say no to the "brother".

I was there 10 years and had no idea that this was common. I knew of one case where this had happened, but assumed it was the exception and not the rule.

Next time, I'll ask more questions and assume less.

[Captain Bible]

I once heard a [GC's] pastor-in-training's own story about the gal he liked for years and who he started not "treating"...i.e. not interacting with at all because he liked her and it really really got to him/stayed on his mind and he had hard time even being in around her.

One day he was sitting right next to her but was turned to the left (she on his right) and completely ignored her as usual...and she asked him point-blank, "do you hate me"? And after this he said he realized how aweful it was that he wasn't even treating her like a sister.

Have you guys ever seen this in GC among people? I think it's symptomatic. From my own experience I can say that (prior to learning about the messed-up and evils of GC and its leadership etc.) I remember talking to a brother about a gal who I was thinking of talking to (we were both silent but things were getting awkward) and I noticed that he advised me to say nothing and referred me to the above-mentioned message (which in there too the pastor-in-training said "you shouldn't say anything" to someone if you're in love because it gets "awkward"). Personally I think GC tends to by nature and structure and teaching make things awkward for people rather than the other way around...for instance, I wonder about this thing where they refer to a man who started a worship-time with his wife even before she was his wife and use that to say be faithful in having a worship time with your family, but then of course there's all the taboo and teaching not to be alone with a woman...?

And has this, perhaps, ever become the case between leaders and non-leaders, i.e., not a "love" thing, but perhaps leadership for some reason just begins to neglect people?

This strikes a chord with me. I remember all the mind games that we played with each other. The pool of women I could marry was limited to my fellowship team. No body would talk about who they liked because there where more guys than girls on the team. The leader would always talk about doing special things for "The Girls" because no one could act independently. One girl waited for the man she wanted for a long time. She could never tell him out right, she had to drop hints over and over again. I was so trapped in that system. I heard a girl complain once that if we boys married girls from other churches that left no one for them to marry in the church, than they would have to marry someone else (from another non GC church ) and leave the local church that they had pledged themselves to. Now I see that the women where trapped too. They had to wait, wait, wait, wait. And the guys had to wait too. "Till they heard from God." In reality the whole thing was F@#*ed  up.

Do you want some motivation to shire the gospel? Every young person that comes to the Lord is a prize for your fellowship team. Your pool of women or men goes up.... pretty bad huh? It is just so childish: "I think so and so likes you." Why? because they are ignoring you, but don't worry....    every one is masturbating  like crazy!  I had leaders tell me to give them a phone call after I had done the deed. (to confess and so forth.) Only made that mistake once... Holy s%$t I was crazy!  The whole thing was a racket! My worst memories come from a leaders meeting when a young man was brought in weeping. God... I hate to remember it.

It was like a pride of lions ripping apart a antelope. He slept with a sister! The sister was crying he was crying the whole thing was a mess. I tried to crawl into some dark corner inside myself as the confession took place. F#$%ed up.  ....        the Pastor saying something about forgiveness... than we all prayed for them, that was the feeding frenzy. Evey one praying for the fallen brother and sister just eviscerating them. Sometimes I fantasize that I had walked out of the room, or started to cuss my pastor out, anything to stop the "spiritual stoning". In the end the young man moved out of state, west coast maybe? The young lady went to live with her GC parents. I think about them a lot. I did not know ether of them that well but I hope they have found some kind of healing from our sick cult.

To those hurt: I would like you to know that I am sorry that I did nothing. I am sorry I did not stand up for you and do the right thing. I hope you are doing well far from the church and if you are sill in the movement I hope you can find the courage to leave. I wish I could have done so sooner myself. cheers.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I am so glad you are free.  The abuse you experienced in your group makes me so angry.  I wish I could go tell them off personally.  Unbelievable.  Even in my church that has a sacrament of confession, there is never ever ever a case for specific enumeration of sins.  General terms like, "I have struggled with impure thoughts and behaviors/actions" is totally legit and even that is pretty specific but yet could cover a multitude of things from movies to speech to anything really.  The point is that God knows and that you are addressing them, confessing them, and repenting.  Truly, even, in the most conservative and traditional denominations, the kinds of things you experienced would NEVER be found except maybe in an abusive sect or a monastery.  Those would not be GOOD, but you *might* find them. 


I am so surprised sometimes at the lengths GC takes to control it's members and to make them dependent tools in every way.  It's heartbreaking to me, yet we all experienced it in one form or another.

After I left, I experienced some shame for participation, but I have since come to see that across human groups, all kinds of funky things creep up to control or propagate, and we are not unique, more naive, or less intelligent than your average joe, if anything we might be more sincere or devoted as a rule or very idealistic.

I hope you can enjoy being YOU.  You sound like an amazing person, and if you are who I think you are, I KNOW you are an amazing person.  Have a wonderful weekend and enjoy your freedom!

[G_Prince]

I once heard a [GC's] pastor-in-training's own story about the gal he liked for years and who he started not "treating"...i.e. not interacting with at all because he liked her and it really really got to him/stayed on his mind and he had hard time even being in around her.

One day he was sitting right next to her but was turned to the left (she on his right) and completely ignored her as usual...and she asked him point-blank, "do you hate me"? And after this he said he realized how aweful it was that he wasn't even treating her like a sister.

Have you guys ever seen this in GC among people? I think it's symptomatic. From my own experience I can say that (prior to learning about the messed-up and evils of GC and its leadership etc.) I remember talking to a brother about a gal who I was thinking of talking to (we were both silent but things were getting awkward) and I noticed that he advised me to say nothing and referred me to the above-mentioned message (which in there too the pastor-in-training said "you shouldn't say anything" to someone if you're in love because it gets "awkward"). Personally I think GC tends to by nature and structure and teaching make things awkward for people rather than the other way around...for instance, I wonder about this thing where they refer to a man who started a worship-time with his wife even before she was his wife and use that to say be faithful in having a worship time with your family, but then of course there's all the taboo and teaching not to be alone with a woman...?

And has this, perhaps, ever become the case between leaders and non-leaders, i.e., not a "love" thing, but perhaps leadership for some reason just begins to neglect people?

This strikes a chord with me. I remember all the mind games that we played with each other. The pool of women I could marry was limited to my fellowship team. No body would talk about who they liked because there where more guys than girls on the team. The leader would always talk about doing special things for "The Girls" because no one could act independently. One girl waited for the man she wanted for a long time. She could never tell him out right, she had to drop hints over and over again. I was so trapped in that system. I heard a girl complain once that if we boys married girls from other churches that left no one for them to marry in the church, than they would have to marry someone else (from another non GC church ) and leave the local church that they had pledged themselves to. Now I see that the women where trapped too. They had to wait, wait, wait, wait. And the guys had to wait too. "Till they heard from God." In reality the whole thing was F@#*ed  up.

Do you want some motivation to shire the gospel? Every young person that comes to the Lord is a prize for your fellowship team. Your pool of women or men goes up.... pretty bad huh? It is just so childish: "I think so and so likes you." Why? because they are ignoring you, but don't worry....    every one is masturbating  like crazy!  I had leaders tell me to give them a phone call after I had done the deed. (to confess and so forth.) Only made that mistake once... Holy s%$t I was crazy!  The whole thing was a racket! My worst memories come from a leaders meeting when a young man was brought in weeping. God... I hate to remember it.

It was like a pride of lions ripping apart a antelope. He slept with a sister! The sister was crying he was crying the whole thing was a mess. I tried to crawl into some dark corner inside myself as the confession took place. F#$%ed up.  ....        the Pastor saying something about forgiveness... than we all prayed for them, that was the feeding frenzy. Evey one praying for the fallen brother and sister just eviscerating them. Sometimes I fantasize that I had walked out of the room, or started to cuss my pastor out, anything to stop the "spiritual stoning". In the end the young man moved out of state, west coast maybe? The young lady went to live with her GC parents. I think about them a lot. I did not know ether of them that well but I hope they have found some kind of healing from our sick cult.

To those hurt: I would like you to know that I am sorry that I did nothing. I am sorry I did not stand up for you and do the right thing. I hope you are doing well far from the church and if you are sill in the movement I hope you can find the courage to leave. I wish I could have done so sooner myself. cheers.

Thinking back to the reasons we originally left the church...the only one I clearly remember was a similar "spiritual stoning" that happend to good friends of ours. Nothing like a Wednesday night gathering spent pawing threw someone else's dirty laundry to make you feel good about your church!
Everyone of course new it was coming (we all heard the rumor, but pretended like we didn't'); you could see the hot shots in the audience weighing their Bibles in their hands ready to hurl a slew of scripture at the victims. When it was over I just remember walking back to the car thinking "what the f*ck just happened?" That was the beginning of the end for us...and the definitive end for my friends who later divorced after a hasty marriage.

Also, I don't know if the ladies here experienced this, but for us gents one could pretty much always count on some kind of quasi-public confession of all one's sexual fantasies (imagined or acted out) on a monthly or bi-weekly basis. Inevitably, someone in your life group would start in on their lusts of the week and this confession would always turn into much more general sexual inquisition of all present. I always hated those people who started the flagellation. Nothing is more awkward then lying point blank to a group of church friends when they all know you're lying. "oh yea...um doing fine...sex...don't even think about it...really guys I got this! Can we move on?" For once I would have liked to have just said, "none of your damn business!" Or even been unrepentantly honest, "Yea, I cheated...I lied...can we rap this up? I'm meeting a hooker in ten minuets!" (KIDDING OF COURSE. This is a line from Jim Gaffigan about Catholic confession).

As far as being complacent in such things...I was born into the system and brainwashed. I feel sorry for many of the things I participated in...but I don't much blame myself since in that situational context what other choices could I have made? It's the old catch 22 of "if I only knew then.." Can't do much about it now...except try to learn from all those mistakes and treat people I still know from those dark days with honesty and respect. 

[AgathaL'Orange]

Did you know that whole thing about Men think about sex a certain number of times every few minutes/seconds whatever has been recently found to be completely misleading?  First, they found they really didn't think about sex any more than they did about food and sleeping.  How funny is that?  Are they going to make people start confessing that they watched the food network? 

Honestly, the more you think and talk about these things publicly and in detail, I see two things inevitably occuring, 1.  You will be tempted way more than ever or 2.  You might develop a dysfunctional relationship with sex because behaviorally speaking, it is always "paired" with an aversive.  Therefore, you might start taking that "aversive" feeling of shame with you into a healthy marriage. 

That's not right for people to do that to you.  It is abuse, plain and simple... there is no other way around it.  And this is true if it is in a cult, an Orthodox church, a Catholic church, and Episcopal church, with your parents, or with a weird friend.  No one has this right to have this kind of control over you.


I feel sad for the men who are made to feel like dirty, perverted animals for something that is a normal part of human behavior.  Seriously.  We are programmed to reproduce!  That was what God even said in the Garden of Eden.  GC is so weird.

[Linda]

The other sad part of the confession is that once you confess, they've got "something" on you that can be used against you in the future. When someone says, "Why did so and so leave," they can say, "So and so struggled with sexual impurity and didn't want to take our advice..."

I never heard any public confessions at our church, but then my husband wasn't on the pastor track. (That's why I'm so jealous and bitter. ) GP, I'm curious, did pastors ever confess to anything publicly? Or, just the underlings?

It's not like I'm against the idea of confessing sins. After all, the Bible tells us to do this. I am reminded of another bit of bad teaching. MD's teaching on grace. It goes something like this.

Once you become a Christian, you are forgiven for every sin. Past, present, and future. Therefore, Christians NEVER have to confess anything. In fact, it is wrong to confess. I've heard him give a variation of this talk several times. (He says 1 John was written for non-Christians to get around verse 1:9) Here is a quote from the message he gave to our church in July 2005, shortly before we left.

When Christ died for you and I all of our sins of the entire span of our life our bc sins, before Christ sins and our ac sins our after christ sins were also put on Christ and we stand before God blameless and faultless without one spot or stain of sin in our lives. Most Christians go through their lives feeling constant guilt for what they’ve done now as a Christian. This is what Paul writes about in Romans chapter 7 and chapter 8...

Contrast that with many Christians that believe Romans 1:9 (I think he meant 1 John) is for Christians, it’s not, it’s for non-Christians. Therefore they call it the Christian bar of soap. If we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. My friend, if you are not already cleansed from all unrighteousness you’re not going to heaven. If you’re not already all forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ, you’re not going to heaven...

So, it is interesting that they have people publicly confess their sins on the one hand, and on the other they teach that if you have to confess your sins you are not a Christian. Which is it, boys?

Also interesting, if you look at the context, it seems to me that 1 John was written to believers. Lots of "we" pronouns, "my little children" I am writing so you might not sin. Again, context seems to indicate that MD has this verse wrong. At least to me, it seems like the audience is fellow Christians.

I think MD is confusing becoming a Christian, with dealing with sin once you are a Christian. Acknowledging sin before God is an act of humility which is always a good thing.

The teaching on confession must be all over the map in GC. Some churches require it, one of the leaders thinks it is wrong. So strange.

[EverAStudent]

First, yes, our church fairly well forced the guys to huddle into confession circles at times.  Even though I had consumed the KoolAid, I never bought into the confession circle--that was one of the things that branded me as a rebel.  And no, the elders always confessed the most inocuous silly stuff (e.g. I work too hard, I forgot to kiss my wife before I left yesterday...).  Do a word study on "accountability" sometime and you quickly learn that we are accountable to God alone, not to each other and have no valid need for every church member to be in an accountability group.

Second, the "once forgiven always forgiven" heresy is rife throughout the contemporary church, not just in GC.  It is actually a tengent doctrine from the error of hyper-dispensationalism which shreds the New Testament into sections: "for Jews only," "for pre-Pauline Gentiles only," and "for post-Pauline Gentiles only."  In the "post-Pauline" era, we are saved by grace and need never repent, need not be baptized (Paul did not come to baptize), and should not take any of our "Christian" doctrine from the Gospels, Hebrews, James, Peter, or Jude.  Well, most pastors understand how the no-baptism thing is wrong and how the anti-Gospels thing is messed up, but they cling to the no-repentance thing as "logical." 

My adivce: if you encounter someone who wants to introduce confession circles (accountability groups) or the "no need to repent" doctrine, run for the nearest church exit, do not look behind you, and deposit the LookAid cup in the nearest trash can you find.  Pastors who cannot recognize bad doctrine ought not to be your pastor.

[MidnightRider]

I was also taught the bit about not having to confess your sins after you became a Christian. That was not just one pastor's teaching. When I asked about the Lord's Prayer, my pastor said that it applied to a different dispensation. 

[Innerlight]

Applied to a "different dispensation".........good grief.

[EverAStudent]

Yup, that is hyper-dispensationalism.  Pat that pastor on the back, turn on your heel, and head for the door. 

Just to be clear, there are two obvious dispensations:  the Old Covenant, and the New Convenant.  In the Old Covenant believers had to convert to Judaism (the Law) to "work out their faith."  In the New Covenant a believer must convert to Christ, obey His commandments, and can ignore the Law to "work out their faith."  In both dispensations salvation was granted on the basis of faith alone, not on any merit of works or Law keeping.

Trying to cut dispensations any finer than Old (the Law age) and New (the Church age) is generally what leads to error.  Future stuff is future stuff and could be seen as another dispensation, but, salvation will still be the same even in the future and they will still be living under Christ's New Testament commandments until time comes to an end and eternity begins.

[Innerlight]

Did God setup two dispensations, or did he have one plan all along? 

[MidnightRider]

Yup, that is hyper-dispensationalism.  Pat that pastor on the back, turn on your heel, and head for the door. 

Thanks. I wish someone would have told me that 30 years ago.   

[EverAStudent]

Dear Innerlight,

Good question.  Always ask for definitions in spiritual discussions.

In general, in theological discussions a dispensation is just some block of time that is bounded by some parameters.  In the broadest possible sense the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are the two best known dispensations.  But of course, there had to be at least one more for the time from Adam until Moses, before the Old Covenant. 

Dispensations are supposed to be used to explain the different obligations which God imposes on humanity, such as: "I have one rule, don't eat from that one tree," or "I have for you these 5 books of the Law that you should obey." or "I have only the commands of Christ for you to obey." 

Somewhere the idea of dispensations gets improperly conflated with a misunderstanding of the plan of salvation.  Salvation has never changed: believe on the Lord God as your personal savior and He will remit your sins.  Salvation, in all dispensations, has always been the same.  But what God expects us to DO after we believe is what characterizes the differences in dispensations. 

Some people improperly assume that the means of salvation was different in the different dispensations.  These people are incorrect.  The Law never saved.  Works never saved.  It has always been by faith alone, in any dispensation.

[Innerlight]

I know what it means, I wanted to hear your answer.  I am not a big proponent of dispensationalism, and it is losing favor among the prof's I have had.

[EverAStudent]

  Blessings! 

[Innerlight]

I agree with all that you say, especially about hyper-dispensationalism (what a word), but would take issue on the so-called dispensations (or blocks of time/strategy), that God used to work out his plan.  Certainly the Law and Grace are two different things, but dispensationalism has taken end times i.e. eschatology to new and bewildering heights of end times forecasting, especially as it relates to the temple, Jews, Israel, etc...  but it has rasied the awareness of eschatology, which is a good thing, in it's properr context.

watch the video below, and let me know what you think...

 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/rapture-ready-the-unauth_b_57826.html