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Author Topic: The Swerver "Suggestion"  (Read 10719 times)
AgathaL'Orange
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« on: January 25, 2010, 06:09:20 pm »

06.30.04 The Next Level  Swerver: Why Wouldn't Jesus Date?  Bill Young 

http://www.experiencetherock.com/mp3/message/special/swerver.mp3

06.30.04 The Next Level  Swerver: Why Wouldn't Jesus Date?
Q & A  Bill Young 
http://www.experiencetherock.com/mp3/message/special/swerverqa.mp3

Faithwalkers 2008  Swerver Reloaded Bill Young
http://www.harvest-ne.org/Site/Podcast/Entries/2008/12/27_Faithwalkers_2008-_Bill_Young_and_Steele_Crosswhite_-_Swerver_Reloaded.html




Faithwalkers 2009 Server  Bill Young, Mary Young, Steel Crosswhite, and a few other people
http://gccweb.org/podcasts/episode-803/swerver.mp3
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 06:36:31 pm »

I was a member college/singles small groups during my time at GC. The term Swerver was bandied about by our small group leaders quite often, with tapes on the message passed out to anyone who wasn't convinced that dating was equivalent to worldliness/sin. Godly dating or dating with a purpose was lumped in with promiscuity. The idea was that you should "guard your heart" and thus not even consider a relationship with anyone of the opposite sex (until you get counsel, your elder approves, and you basically propose). Do not even talk to one female more than the others, it was often said. Do not show "partiality!" The swearing metaphor: having a crush on Girl A and talking a lot to her, and then later changing your mind and pursuing Girl B, and then Girl C, swerving all over the place with your heart, but each time showing partiality to one girl over the rest of your sisters in Christ. It got to the point where they asked all single members of the church to never be alone in another room with somebody of the opposite sex without having two members of both sexes in the room with you. This was not a junior high group, we were in our 20's!

The biblical justification they used, I later came to find out, was the exact same verse Jim McCotter used when he first introduced the principle under a different name in the beginning of the movement. McCotter first advocated GC's courtship methods. His words:
Quote
What we call 'dating,' the Bible may call 'partiality' (James 2:9). What we call 'boyfriend/girlfriend,' the Bible may call a 'clique' or a 'faction' (Galatians 5:20).
John Meyer of Summitview Community Church in Fort Collins has a booklet published that they handed out, which used the exact same verse and reasoning as Jim's ancient teaching, without mentioning Jim at all.

The funniest thing about it is that even among the most "plugged in" members, it seemed like EVERYONE had a crush on somebody else. With so much pressure to act like nobody cared, it simply pushed everything underground and made it secretive. Leaders and non-leaders alike knew who had a crush on who, and the people who liked each other had to act like they didn't even when it was so blatantly obvious that they did. I've never been in a church with so much gossip and so many secrets. Most of them time the people who you thought would end up together, simply based on how they acted around each other, did. It really created this atmosphere of incredible sexual tension, awkwardness, and ultimately provides an incentive to tow the GC line because if you do a leader might finally approve of you asking the person you like to marry you.

Make no mistake, however, that most of the people I knew that got together "The GC Way" spent plenty of time beforehand flirting with each other, pretending like they weren't really flirting, and otherwise putting on this whole charade of "I'm godlier than thou." Also, if you are a male small group leader paired with a female small group leader, your chances of marrying are very very very high. Smiley
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 06:43:03 pm »

The Swerver Supremacy Faithwalkers 2007 Tan Tar A  Bill Young and Steele Crosswhite

http://www.gccweb.org/podcasts/episode-325/the-swerver-supremacy_bill-young-_-steele-crosswhite.mp3

Swerver II  Godly Relationships Revisited  Faithwalkers 2005  Bill Young

https://gccweb.markupfactory.com/podcasts/episode-178/swerver-ii-godly-relationships-revisited-bill-young.mp3

Also, Anonymous, I appreciate your post.  You hit the ball out of the ballpark I think when you said

Quote
It ... ultimately provides an incentive to tow the GC line because if you do a leader might finally approve of you asking the person you like to marry you.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 06:45:34 pm by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Anonymous
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2010, 06:48:09 pm »

Quote
Make no mistake, however, that most of the people I knew that got together "The GC Way" spent plenty of time beforehand flirting with each other, pretending like they weren't really flirting, and otherwise putting on this whole charade of "I'm godlier than thou." Also, if you are a male small group leader paired with a female small group leader, your chances of marrying are very very very high. Smiley

Come to think of it there was one exception I remember where a very GC-loyal friend of ours started courting someone in another small group, and all anybody could do was express shock. Nobody had ever even seen him talking to her, and apparently the proposal had shocked even her. She said yes, and a couple of months later they were married!
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2010, 06:50:36 pm »

Swerver Q and A  Faithwalkers 2006  Bill Young and Steel Crosswhite.  Steel and Kim's Story

https://gccweb.markupfactory.com/podcasts/episode-221/swerver-q-a-steel-kim-s-story_young-and-crosswhite.mp3

Sorry to post so much on this, but I think it's safe to say this is a "Doctrine of the Movement" either that or they get tired of finding new things to talk about to young, impressionable people.
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wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 01:09:39 pm »

same old stuff.  New term -- swerver -- used to be called impartiality in the 80's-90's. 

Dating though used to be called "sin"  now it is likened to eating McDonalds hamburgers every day (is this the best, sister?)

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 03:30:51 pm »

Exactly, GC says, "Oh No NO No NOOOO!  This is not a command!" 

And then go one to show how there Non Swerver Approach is:

1.  A better way.
2.  More God honoring.
3.  Scriptural.
4.  Not selfish.
5.  The way that God's family should behave.
6.  What Jesus would do.

Dating is (according to GC):
1.  Selfish.
2.  Partial.
3.  Compared with familial incest.
4. The World's Deception.

Now, what self respecting Christian who hears and believes this would make any other choice than to find a mate the GC way.

My own personal take?  The concept of Dating with a Purpose (Bill Young in GC calls it DWAP-ing) is a good concept on it's face, outside of GCx.  Until you realize that it's really asking for permission from people who aren't your parents, only allowed with someone who is a GC Christian (usually), very controlling, oddly unnatural in the the GC APPLICATION, then Dating With a Purpose according to them becomes seriously cultic.

When authoritarian groups control information and who gets to have sex... then they can control a large portion of people's lives!  And when people are trying to remain pure, it's temptation, in my opinion, to make them wait years to be able to married.  Wasn't it the Apostle Paul who said, "It's better to marry than to burn (with passion)"? 

I'm all for wise dating or courtship.  I believe in "waiting" until you are married.  I believe in marrying a Christian!  From your Christian group is even better.  But to say that college kids who are away from home, parents, home churches, etc need to pursue this legalistic, burdensome way of finding a mate is just strange.  It's not that it's WRONG, necessarily.  It's just that it's controlling and people have KNOW IDEA what they are getting into when they join up.  I believe it's a way to continue to get people to "Plant their flag and die there" a la Rick Whitney etc.
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GC No More
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2011, 11:39:48 pm »

This article from Boundless on Biblical Dating sounds a lot like the Swerver messages: http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001401.cfm

From the article:
Quote
Differences Between Modern Dating and Biblical Dating

So what's the real difference? Here are some fundamentals:

Modern dating philosophy assumes that there will be several intimate romantic relationships in a person's life before marriage. In fact, it advocates "playing the field" in order to determine "what one wants" in a mate. Biblical dating has as its goal to be emotionally and physically intimate with only one member of the opposite sex ... your spouse.

Modern dating tends to be egalitarian (no differences between men and women in spiritual or emotional "wiring" or God-given roles). Biblical dating tends to be complimentarian (God has created men and women differently and has ordained each of these spiritual equals to play different and valuable roles in the church and in the family).

Modern dating tends to assume that you will spend a great deal of time together (most of it alone). Biblical dating tends to encourage time spent in group activities or with other people the couple knows well.

Modern dating tends to assume that you need to get to know a person more deeply than anyone else in the world to figure out whether you should be with him or her. The biblical approach suggests that real commitment to the other person should precede such a high level of intimacy.

Modern dating tends to assume that a good relationship will "meet all my needs and desires," and a bad one won't it's essentially a self-centered approach. Biblical dating approaches relationships from a completely different perspective one of ministry and service and bringing glory to God.

Modern dating tends to assume that there will be a high level of emotional involvement in a dating relationship, and some level of physical involvement as well. Biblical dating assumes NO physical intimacy, and more limited emotional intimacy outside of marriage.

Modern Dating assumes that what I do and who I date as an adult is entirely up to me and is private (my family or the church has no formal or practical authority). Biblical dating assumes a context of spiritual accountability, as is true in every other area of the Christian life.
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2011, 08:09:14 am »

There are a lot of good principles listed there. The suggestions are rather good ones. Notice, however, that a principle of favoritism is reached by taking a verse out of context. The "partiality" principle is lifted from James 2. However, if you study that verse in context, it is not talking about dating at all. Rather it is talking about religious favoritism that is given to some over others (like maybe a pastor's kid).

Point being, principles are fine. The dangerous thing about GC is that you are in a performance based system and so the more you conform to the guy on stage, the more props you get.

They copy a lot of things and pass them off as original thoughts. Maybe the reason they haven't posted "Cost of Discipleship 1" is because it plagiarized "33 things that happen at the moment of salvation".

Good observation GC No More. Good user name too. Let me know if you ever want to trade  Wink.
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Linda
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 10:25:09 am »

Were there any "Swerver" talks this year?

The thing that strikes me about so much of GC teaching is that they are a master of the "Either-Or" fallacy.

Either you date like the world and have premarital sex, OR you get the permission of your elder and randomly go up to someone and ask them to marry you.

Either you obey the elders that are part of a plurality of self-perpetuating elders started by founding apostle, Jim McCotter, OR you go to a traditional church where there is a senior pastor who is having an affair with the church secretary (actually heard this example used to defend their method).

Either you commit to a GC church for the rest of your life, OR you live a shallow life, dating other churches and doing nothing of lasting importance for God.

Either you agree 100% with what the elder teaches and if he is wrong you don't correct his error, but you stay silent so as not to make him look bad, OR you are a slanderer deserving of shunning a la Titus 3:10.
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G_Prince
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 11:39:40 am »

"Biblical dating" doesn't exist. This term is really just somone's opinion on dating using a piecemeal application of scripture. If you really wanted to find a spouse(s) the Bible's way you would have an arranged marriage. Maybe this is what they are actually getting at.
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Linda
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2011, 12:28:28 pm »

Quote from: GP
Maybe this is what they are actually getting at.
Except instead of the parents arranging the marriage it is the elders (who can trace their elder credentials back to founding self-proclaimed apostle Jim McCotter--I like to keep reminding people of this fact, can you tell? Smiley ) who do the arranging.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 12:39:08 pm by Linda » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2011, 01:03:55 pm »

the elders (who can trace their elder credentials back to founding self-proclaimed apostle Jim McCotter--I like to keep reminding people of this fact, can you tell? Smiley

A sense of history is a wonderful gift.

 Smiley
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GC No More
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 05:37:38 pm »

Were there any "Swerver" talks this year?

The Faithwalkers West had one: Swerver Man II: The Super-Dating Sequel - Bill & Mary Young, Steele & Kim Croswhite, Josh & Krista Whitney. I haven't listened to it yet but I'm guessing it's the same stuff.
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 05:41:33 pm »

Either you agree 100% with what the elder teaches and if he is wrong you don't correct his error, but you stay silent so as not to make him look bad, OR you are a slanderer deserving of shunning a la Titus 3:10.

The Bereans were praised for examining Paul's messages to see if they lined up scripture (Acts 17:11). Shouldn't the same apply to the teachings of elders now?
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2011, 09:25:27 pm »

The thing that strikes me about so much of GC teaching is that they are a master of the "Either-Or" fallacy.

Either you date like the world and have premarital sex, OR you get the permission of your elder and randomly go up to someone and ask them to marry you.

Either you obey the elders that are part of a plurality of self-perpetuating elders started by founding apostle, Jim McCotter, OR you go to a traditional church where there is a senior pastor who is having an affair with the church secretary (actually heard this example used to defend their method).

Either you commit to a GC church for the rest of your life, OR you live a shallow life, dating other churches and doing nothing of lasting importance for God.

Either you agree 100% with what the elder teaches and if he is wrong you don't correct his error, but you stay silent so as not to make him look bad, OR you are a slanderer deserving of shunning a la Titus 3:10.

This is very true. GC seems to see things in black and white. They think that their way is right and best and that anything else has to be less right. There doesn't seem to be room for individual perspectives and convictions. They don't seem to think that people can come up with the right answer unless they are guiding them. I do think that they genuinely want people to lead godly lives but they're just going about it the wrong way.
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MidnightRider
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2011, 10:11:10 pm »

I am sorry to be slow on the uptake. What does this term "swerver" mean? Where did it come from? Is it another example of GCx jargon?

I never heard this term when I was in GCx long ago.
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trthskr
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2011, 06:03:22 pm »

"swerver" is the dating-is-sin message.

when you go shopping and you pick up a cart with one bad wheel on it, it swerves when  you are walking. 

Dating is a bad wheel, and it will make you swerve in your walk with God.

It doesn't matter if that's not mentioned in the Bible.  Marry who we say you should marry, ok?
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2011, 09:51:47 pm »

Bill Young named it and used to (maybe still does) do all kinds of talks with Steele Crosswhite about it.
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Innerlight
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2011, 10:58:43 am »

so glad I can offer myself a living sacrifice to God, and that he is pleased by that.  God loves us, and expects us to love him and our neighbors, with our whole hearts, and as we love ourselves.  While the Law is still with us, it is a law, coming from our renewed mind, wanting to offer ourselves as an acceptable sacrifice.  The do's and dont's of legalism are gone.  I hope GCC "got the memo". 
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