Walking Wombs

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[Genevieve]

Women: you can’t live with ‘em, can’t live without ‘em. The “woman” issue is a big one is GCM. There’s always controversy about this. Most claim that submission, homeschooling, and droves of children are a blessing, and I think they all can be. However, it feels forced sometimes. Do all those women REALLY want 8 kids? Or are they just not sure what else they’re good for in the church?

Was there a verse more preached than “wives submit to your husbands?” What about the Proverbs 31 woman who was used like a cudgel to beat us into shape?

But the thing that bothers me the most is the issue of careers for women. We all know that practicality is a key issue in GCM. Both men and women choose careers that take little time or passion so they can funnel that all into the church. But what that means for women is especially heartbreaking.

The Feminist Movement? A joke, a thorn in their side. What GCM needed was pre-Feminine Mystique worker bees. The only thing worth choosing in their minds is the home. So, the women and girls that I know in GCM mostly choose hospitality careers: cooking and teaching. One friend switched from a challenging architecture major she enjoyed and was good at to an easy journalism major late in college simply so she could spend more time at church. Another is going to community college in hotel and restaurant management because it will transfer easily to the home.

Now, of course, lots of girls and women truly want to homeschool, cook, clean, raise lots of children; it really is their dream. But I get the feeling that some girls don’t realize they could do something different that is also meaningul, that they could have passions outside of children or service. This obviously is true in lots of places, but what I don’t like is that it seems like other, more challenging careers aren’t even considered because they take too much time and energy.

This certainly isn’t just a GCM issue because many girls I knew in high school went to Bible college for their “MRS” degree, but at least I think they felt like they had a choice. Here I’m not so sure.

In the home, of course, the husband was the voice of God (similar to the pastor in the church). You don’t question. (See Gene’s “Be a Man” post in September for more on masculinity in GCM.) Even if the woman was better at finances, it was the man’s responsibility and what he wanted to do was right. I remember one woman in the church say that she had stopped saying “I’ll have my husband call you back” when she took a phone message for him. It seemed disrespectful. Instead she said, “I’ll tell my husband you called” so he could decide whether to call back or not. Whoa.

I personally found myself trying to make myself smaller so my husband could be bigger. I was meeker, quieter, more agreeable than I really was, just so he could “be the head of the house.” A real man loves a strong woman who knows her mind and chooses her path, just like a real woman loves a strong man who knows his mind and chooses his path.

I didn’t have children while at GCM, but sometimes I wanted them just so I knew I was doing something important. I think being a mother really is one of the most important things a woman can do with her life, but not the ONLY or THE important thing she does. I think some GCM girls don’t see that.

[nateswinton]

I came across this blog a few nights ago when a friend showed it to me. This morning was the first time I’ve been able to really read it and I really feel like I ought to contribute.

First, though, I want to introduce myself. And please don’t make any assumptions about me if you can avoid it. I hope we all know that our present state is not our identity, our identity is in Christ.

I grew up a missionary kid in Africa. I think I knew God, because I remember feeling His protection over me during some very difficult and fearful experiences growing up. My family moved back to America a week or two before my freshman year of Highschool. Highschool was very hard on me. I found the great hypocrisy that the rest of the world hates about America: American christianity. I could write books about how burned I was and how jaded I became during highschool and early college.

The day I moved into the dorms at Iowa State University, I met a guy from The Rock (the GCM college group in town). For the next year he invited me to his small group (”lifegroup”), but I wasn’t interested. I was more concerned with my girlfriend, my video games, and my failing grades.

The next year I agreed to check it out once. I showed up and experienced honesty for the first time from believers my age. A few people in the room had just gone through a horribly awkward team split within The Rock and were jaded. We talked through it. I talked through my past, and I remember saying “I’m sorry guys, but I’ve just learned from experience to hate christians”.

That night I experienced genuine grace and acceptance.

I’m on staff with The Rock now. It’s been four and a half years…

Alot of the issues I’m seeing brought up here have truth to them. I’ll be honest here (since it seems that’s the agressive culture on this blog): my wife has felt these pressures as well to some extent.

And maybe this is where the rub is, and maybe this is why I’ve been able to stick things out where I am, and even how I’ve managed to be on staff with this group…

Yes, there is that pressure. I haven’t heard it on Sunday morning explicitly, but it’s in the one-on-one discipleship that it’s been passed on. I was taught it. All of my wife’s friends were taught it. But we are able to think indepenantly.

I’m on staff because I really love discipling young men. I’m really excited about The Great Commission, but I’m aware that it’s inseparable from the Greatest Commandment. And I’m able to put them in context of each other.

If unbalanced teaching is reason to leave, we ought not go to college as well. Think about your past professors honestly. Let’s carry this line of thought to the end of it’s rational conclusion.

I’m not here because “the teaching is *right on*”. I’m here because I have an opportunity to serve God in my church body. I mean heck, you wanna talk about bad teaching? I’ve been to messages in a GC church where the pastor endorsed Bush publicly and with authority before the re-election. I voted for Bush, don’t get me wrong. But now I’m watching GC pastors around me slowly back away from the war and the president. Anyway, I digress…

My wife has a degree from Johnson and Wales University (Ivy League of sorts Culinary Arts School), and has a job as a baker in probably the most fancy restaurants in town. She’s independant and intelligent.

We are painfully aware of the whole “don’t use birth control” conviction. We are painfully aware that “families ought to have as many children as possible - don’t you want a blessing?” conviction. We are aware that it’s generally (but not always) frowned upon to have the woman working outside of the home. We are well aware that “women ought to sumbit”. Heck, I’ve heard “be silent” and “passive” used there too.

But it’s wrong teaching, so we let it bounce off us. Those might be principles, but they’re not commands. So we take them as such, and hold on to grace, that even if we’re dead wrong, “God justified the wicked” (Romans 4:4-5).

I’m not sure it’s wise or edifying to make sweeping statements about GCM as a whole. I’m finding that it’s a handful of key individuals and their following that lead to alot of those principles becoming commands and alot of those truths become lies.

It’s not the entire Great Commission Association of Churches making those claims or forcing or even strongly leading people to do those things. It’s a handful of people that get carried away.

I’ve been to all the Faithwalkers conferences, and I’ve heard some apallingly elitist talk from the stage about “Our Movement”. But it’s not an accurate measurement of the whole movement. It’s a few loud people.

Kinda like the “God Hates Fags” movement. God clearly doesn’t hate homosexuals, and I don’t personally know any believers that would even entertain the idea that He feels like that. But there’s always a handful of very loud obnoxious people at funerals and plays and demonstrations making the rest of Christ’s Body look bad.

Please believe that all GCM pastors are not like the ones that you’ve had your awful experiences with. I will not reduce or try to make light of what made you feel like you did. I’ve seen similar things happen to people dear to me, and it’s possible I will have the same experience some day.

My pastors are loving, reasonable, caring, hard working, and disciplined. Yes, they are just men, and they make mistakes, and they confess them publicly. I remember a few years ago one of our pastors made an off-the-cuff remark to a reporter that cost us the venue of our large group meeting place. He apologized to the whole Rock, and told the whole story to us of how it happened. He was completely humble.

I remember going to GCLI a few years ago and watching a pastor from another church step down publicly because he felt he was neglicting his family and wanted to be a more loving, caring husband and father. I was deeply moved at his openness and humility.

The whole “movement” is not necessarily subject to the same failings you’ve experienced. I meet on a regular basis with Dave Bovenmeyer, who drafted the famous 1991 letter. Things *are* different. Things will never be perfect, and that’s just healthy realism. There still ought to be repentance *and* grace when we and others fail. But it’s not right to be upset at others failing us, and withold the same grace that Christ gave us.

I mean think about the Lord’s Prayer. If you’ve been sinned (trespassed) against, forgive. Sarcastic, unedifying posts on this blog are not part of God’s perfect will. It’s very right to get those feelings out, but even for the sake of your own edification, it might be wise to vent to a close friend. That way you are never ashamed of something you’ve said in a passionate moment that the entire internet was able to read, and also so that younger believers don’t stumble.

I know reading this blog and gcmwarning.com concern me because I know I know I’m not immune to any of these things, and I am genuinely concerned for this association of churches. But I want you to all know that this is not a lost battle, and these mistakes made by leaders are not washed over. Bring them into the light and let God deal with things. But when you bring things into the light, do it in a loving, caring way.

The best rebukes I’ve gotten (and some rebukes are very very good) are the ones that make me feel loved and cared for, and feel like there’s alot of room for growth, and alot of help in that growth process. So if we’re going to rebuke or point out sin, lets try and do it God’s way, not our flesh’s way.

How could we ever make men stop acting out of their flesh - using our own flesh? We can’t.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s quite common for this kind of thinking to be taught to girls in GCM. I’ve talked to a lot of women who have been discouraged from pursuing a career, for reasons which can only be speculated, but the idea seems to be that as a women you will eventually marry a man in the church, and he will provide for you while you have babies and homeschool etc. One example of how I think this kind of message was portrayed: Someone was asked on stage during a service, a new wife who had just finished her Ph.D. She got up before the congregation to announce she was giving up her academic and professional dreams to become a full time stay at home mother, followed by praise from pastors and the audience. Without much explaination for why she was doing this I was a little baffled, didn’t she just throw 10-12 years of her life down the drain? Why the pastors asked her to speak is up for speculation, but I think the message is obvious. Again, this is another one of those things that is not very outright, but you start to notice after being around long enough. I know some women who could probably give a much more detailed account of how this sort of stuff plays out, so I may ask them to post here on their experiences.

[nateswinton]

Anonymous,

I clearly miscommunicated. I am aware that these things are being taught (by example, but rarely explicitly from the stage). I believe that all my pastors wives have stayed at home to homeschool their kids.

For the sake of balance, I think it’s necessary to ask the question: “Did those women want to do that?”

I know for certain that at least two of my pastor’s wives did. I just don’t know about the other two, so I can’t say. They aren’t brainwashed at all, they’re sharp and intelligent, and thought that it’d be the best thing to do with at least the first decade or so of their children’s lives.

“The Rub” lies where people who don’t have that conviction feel the pressure to do the same thing.

Like I asked before, do you think it’s possible that that women you refered to maybe *wanted* to do that? Maybe God was leading her? I’m not saying AT ALL that God desires all women to stay at home and homeschool their dozen children. PLEASE BELIEVE ME that I don’t think that’s *necessarily* God’s will. I certainly don’t believe that God want’s that for my wife. She loves her career, and I’m encouraging her to live out her dreams.

I am asking though, did that woman say why she had decided to do that? Did she view it as a painful sacrifice, or a joy? Are you bringing in a certain bias to your interpretation of the situation? Could it be possible that she felt she was obeying God in her particular situation and everyone was praising that faith and obedience?

I’m just asking questions.

I’m not going to try to refute that really could be some sketchy, if not straight up “bad” teaching going on. But lets work hard to find explicit examples prior to our judgement calls.

[a lurker]

Hello Nate,



I’m a blog lurker.



I seem to remember coming across your blog several months ago and reading some comments about your GCM church, or a conference you attended. Maybe it involved daydreaming during one of the talks. Something like that comes to mind.



Then, a few posts later, you decided to quit blogging.



I am just curious, did you quit your blog on your own without any other input. Or, were you asked to quit blogging by GCM leaders who were “over” you?



Moving on to something else. You said, “If unbalanced teaching is reason to leave, we ought not go to college as well.” Of course, you realize that teaching at a university is a whole different thing than teaching at church where doctrine is something that an elder is to guard in addition to his life. Right?



You also say, “I’m not here because “the teaching is *right on*”. I’m here because I have an opportunity to serve God in my church body.” I would say to that, especially since you say you are on staff, that you have an obligation to FIX ANY TEACHING THAT ISN’T RIGHT ON! You, as a leader, after all, will have to give an account. The best possible way you can serve in your church body is to make sure the teaching is “right on”.



And, as a fellow believer, I would also say, if you can’t fix it, RUN, GET OUT OF THERE, AND FAST!



Now, it’s back lurking for me.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Nate,
I feel your sincerity in your comments. I agree with the “lurker” who said as a leader you should guard doctrine as your life.

You might be strong. Your wife might be strong. But there are probably a lot of people in your church who are new Christians. They are looking to the leadership for direction. If that direction is wrong, they may be in for a lot of sorrow in the future. And it’s one thing to overlook something a member does. A leader or an elder is held to a very high standard. They must not teach things that are wrong. This is a really, really big deal.

So use your position to make sure teaching is right. This is precisely the reason many of us would like to see more leaders seminary trained.

I hope you can see that we are sincere in our efforts to expose the wrong teaching in GCM. And possibly to even spur on right teaching.

For if you don’t have the message right, why would you be willing to give your life for it?

Thanks for posting… hope to hear more from you!

[AgathaL'Orange]

Nate,
I feel your sincerity in your comments. I agree with the “lurker” who said as a leader you should guard doctrine as your life.

You might be strong. Your wife might be strong. But there are probably a lot of people in your church who are new Christians. They are looking to the leadership for direction. If that direction is wrong, they may be in for a lot of sorrow in the future. And it’s one thing to overlook something a member does. A leader or an elder is held to a very high standard. They must not teach things that are wrong. This is a really, really big deal.

So use your position to make sure teaching is right. This is precisely the reason many of us would like to see more leaders seminary trained.

I hope you can see that we are sincere in our efforts to expose the wrong teaching in GCM. And possibly to even spur on right teaching.

For if you don’t have the message right, why would you be willing to give your life for it?

Thanks for posting… hope to hear more from you!

[MamaD]

We came to a GCM church as a big family that homeschooled. It probably had a lot to do with why we felt so at home there in the beginning. I really appreciated that.

I’m one of those “I think everyone who has kids should homeschool” people. I don’t push it on the outside, I just believe it on the inside. It’s based on Deuteronomy 6 and not on any GCM philosophy.

Also, I am against women having careers. But, then, I am also against men having careers. I am an equal opportunity career disliker!

I believe that if our identity is in Christ, then He is all sufficient. The word “career” is a selfish word to me. It means that someone is getting their recognition, value, worth, and joy from the abilities and skills that God gave them rather than from God Himself.

Having said all that, I really do agree with you Genevieve! I think you hit upon something when you said,”Both men and women choose careers that take little time or passion so they can funnel that all into the church.”

I think making a career of the church is equally bad as making a career of anything else. It just seems more spiritual on the outside.

There is more to Christianity than “work” for the church. Much more.

I recently came across a talk that John Piper gave to some church leaders.

Here are some choice excerpts:

We have all told our people to serve God. Scripture says to “serve the Lord with gladness.” But now it may be time to tell them not to serve God. For Scripture also says: “The Son of Man . . . came not to be served.”

He goes on to say:

Nor should we think that after justification our labor for God begins. Those who make a work out of sanctification cry down the glory of God. Jesus Christ is “our righteousness and sanctification” (1 Cor. 1:30). “Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?” (Gal. 3:2-3). God was the workman in our justification, and He will be the workman in our sanctification.

Religious “flesh” always wants to work for God. But “if you live according to the flesh you will die” (Rom. 8:13). That is why our very lives hang on not working for God, both in justification and sanctification.

Isn’t that line “Religious flesh always wants to work for God” amazing. I think it gets at the heart of something big. It’s God that works in us. God is big. When we think we need to “work for God” we unintentionally make him small.

[nateswinton]

Lurker,

Good questions, and good memory. Sometimes I wish I could be an anonymous lurker too.

I’ve had 3 blogs in the past, and I’m helping Admin another group one right now.

My first blog I deleted because I told a vague story that hurt some people’s feelings. I didn’t think that they even knew about the blog I had back then, and when I found out, I took great pains to be reconciled to them, and deleted it.

My second blog ended with me bringing up a deep concern about the state of our student group. I gave up blogging because of the division it was causing. My leaders honestly didn’t “get it” and I think they wanted to, honestly. I deleted it out of frustration and while I wish I could say that all my work within The Rock has been 100% purely motivated by my affection for Christ, some has been for the sake of helping people see the things I pointed out in my second-to-last post (my final one being a farewell one).

My third blog lasted all of two weeks. It was a silly and somewhat innapropriate blog that I posted funny and outrageous stories and videos on. One afternoon I got an email from a guy I’m leading who read the blog regularly and found another guy reading it who was badly stumbled by a video I’d posted (long story). Anyway, I deleted the blog that day, realizing that it was selfish and immature of me to have made it in the first place, and I didn’t want to cause anyone to stumble. It should have been a private thing between friends anyway. It was mostly inside jokes with 3-4 of my closest friends, some of whom have moved away.

So no, my blog was never silenced. I have been asked to submit in a few things around here, but it’s always been in things where I had a bad attitude or relational drama and they were asking me to submit to a verse that was in context. I’ve never been asked to sumbit to man’s authority outright.

Just because all the teaching isn’t “right on” doesn’t mean that most of the teaching is right. This is a great place to bring up all the weak points of GCM’s leadership, but I wish some of you could see what’s going well. If you want, I could post my last prayer letter or a few anecdotes of what God’s done here even in the last few weeks. He is obviously working among us, *even in GCM*!

Now, is Satan among us, lying, decieving, influencing and causing strife? Yes. Very much so. Painfully so. I bet that I could compile a much more complete list than most of you. I’m not leaving though. And that’s no knock on you guys, or a pride statement from me. It’s a commitment, not a statement about my or your quality. It’s a commitment to the work that God has given me, and a on a selfish level, it’s a commitment to the people around me. Alot of the people around me are my best friends. I’m committed to them, but more so to God

Please let me show you how the “loyalty/commitment” deception evolves. You take my above thought and slightly twist it.

Satan comes in and I go from being first committed to God and then to the people around me, to combining the two. Then I get a little bit of pride, because I’m more loyal than alot of others that have wandered off for the last several years. Then I think that I should teach the people I’m leading to be committed to each other, and especially to my church, because I am. I want them to have my spiritual DNA.

That’s how it evolves. It’s not evolving in me, and I hope it never does. But I’m not dumb enough to think I’m immune. I need to be vigilant with my own heart and watch that I’m not giving my deepest affection and loyalty to anything but Christ, and that I’m reproducing *that* in others.

And I can say with honesty, even referring to the last two weeks of my life, that I’m bearing the fruit of that. The young men I’m discipling are moving out of The Rock. Not because they’re jaded, but because they’re growing up spiritually. One is going to Latin America, and the other one is persuing working with homeless people in Ames, and looking to eventually phase out of the Rock. I’ve never called them to commit to this church for life, I see God working all over the place, and I believe that He’ll be in in them when they go.

Does that answer your question about fixing everything that isn’t right on?

If you knew me personally you’d know what a “fixer” I am. If you knew my wife, she’d tell you that I space off while driving and lay awake at night praying about these issues and the responsibilities God has given me. I’m persuing these things very very hard, but I’m doing it within the (sometimes tight) confines of love and unity. I don’t think that I will have accomplished anything great or Godly if I am able to root out all the lies and deceptions and several people are hurt as a result. Especially if pastors are teaching wrong things (which usually turns out to be a miscommunication in my church), I think it needs to be addressed tenatively and with much sensitivity. Think about it, if a brother is decieved, how should we treat them? Beat the lies from their stupid heads? Of course not. The Bible tells us how to rebuke an older man…

If you or anyone else felt that God was leading them to leave, then holy crap, I’m totally behind you and I’ll stand up and congratulate you on your decision to be obedient! I’m all about the Great Commission - “teaching them to obey everything I’ve commanded you”. I sure hope all of us are obeying. I hope all of us are growing in Love too. These things (love and obedience) are critical, and are clear fruit of our relationship with God.

I remember a young woman sitting across a table from me once and telling me what an awful leader and person I was. She was angry because I was asked to step in and replace someone who went on a church plant. She happened to miss him in a not-so-pure sense, and I could never meet her expectations. I remember telling her with a wink after a while that her list of my shortcomings was imcomplete, and I helped her find many more things wrong with me that she’d never known about. I’m aware that I’m just a man and very weak. This isn’t a new truth to anyone that’s read the Bible.

I’m also very aware that I will give an account. I want to be able to give a complete, well-thought-out account. I will give an account for everyone that I’ve influenced as a spiritual leader.

Most of the people I’m leading right now are “maverick” type people. Always thinking outside the box and questioning everything. I want them to see that change can come from within the body, and it can come with peace and reconciliation. Only the world thinks that revolution and war are necessarily intertwined. My war isn’t against people, it’s against lies that Satan has brought to the table, and decieved my friends and family with. So I’m taking great pains not to be a “rhino in a china shop” when it comes to addressing these things, but to be more like a surgeon.

You are also assuming that alot of these lies are directly passed on in an active sense from person to person. Most lies going on in our church are miscommunications that get gossiped about and amplified. I think all of you might be aware of how Satan uses those kinds of things to destroy unity.

The dating issue *gasp*, the loyalty issue *gasp*, and even the freakishly heavy emphasis on evengelism (quick memorize these 75 verses and quote them to your nearest 10 friends - and I’m not exagerating at all) are all issues that come up and my concience is clean as someone that publicly challenges extra-Biblical thought, and teaches reasonable (read: still obedient) and acceptable (read: still obedient) doctrine.

I’m not going to take the stance of “I don’t need to defend myself to you guys” or “I know their hearts” because you don’t know their hearts, and I want to be a blessing to all of you on this blog.

I can say that while lies do exist in our student group, and in our community church, they are not lies that are hidden or un-addressed. They are not lies that anyone in leadership genuinely believes to be truth, either. And when new teachings or leadings come up, there is a very Berean response. Usually from my team in particular, not just me.

I write these things to give you hope. I know you have been wronged, and I want you to see that these wrongs (at least within my field of view) are not continuing indefinately. There are wise leaders overseeing alot of these things.

I’m especially encouraged with Dave Bovenmeyer in the last year. The more I get to know him, the more impressed I am with his balanced and reasonable approaches to everything. We might never weed out everything in this “movement”, but by God we won’t stop trying.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Nate said–
“We are painfully aware of the whole “don’t use birth control” conviction. We are painfully aware that “families ought to have as many children as possible - don’t you want a blessing?” conviction. We are aware that it’s generally (but not always) frowned upon to have the woman working outside of the home. We are well aware that “women ought to sumbit”. Heck, I’ve heard “be silent” and “passive” used there too.

But it’s wrong teaching, so we let it bounce off us. Those might be principles, but they’re not commands.”

Thank you for acknowledging that this teaching is there and not denying it. If a girl grows into woman hearing this often from church and from her parents, she is likely to assimilate this kind of thinking into her worldview. Thus perpetuating the teaching to the next generation. That is why we can’t just let it bounce off us. Maybe, Nate, if you had a little girl, this kind of teaching would bother you more. But for now, you can be concerned for other women who are trying very hard to do the right thing and are perhaps being led down the wrong path.

This is me talking not any official belief of anyone… just me. But I believe that God gives us predilections to different life choices. I do not believe that the will of God for me is a dot that I must fight hard to find. God knows what I will choose, but from my perspective, I’ve got a buffet of choices. So, we must make sure that we are using the gifts of the women too. And not just our own wives, but the women whom we are leading. This is so important. Listen to the women here who’ve been there done that. And I would say we’ve got very strong minds and personalities, we even knew sometimes that the teachings were wrong… and yet we were still plagues by them.

I have to be very careful when I read anything from GCM, because often when I do, I get carried right back there. I am harsher with my children on these days, I find myself demanding instant obedience with no grace and a cheerful disposition– even when I know this isn’t right and it’s just old stuff I have learned that I need to chuck. I find myself feeling bad because gosh, maybe I am disloyal.

And then I surround myself with good teaching, and I am on the peaceful path again.

As we’ve said many times, GCM has so many wonderful things going for it. But the message must be right. If no one’s guarding the message where will the church be in 35 more years? It is going to be very different. There has to be a standard for teaching and doctrine. The statement of errors needs to be applied even today.

[AgathaL'Orange]

“because you don’t know their hearts”

Oh, but we do, we do! We know them very well… And as we’ve said before, they are very good hearts! They mean well. They are sincere, they’re on fire, they want to do what’s right.

But as the old adage says, “You may be sincere, but you are sincerely wrong.”

[nateswinton]

Agatha?

Have I said something that gives you the impression that I’m being passive or dismissive on these issues?

I’m confused by your last post, I had an intention with my last post to make it clear that I’m being very active to correct this thinking and teaching.

My wife is *not* a “standard GCM wife”. My children will not be taught any of the things you’re mentioning. And not only that, but like I said, within the bounds of love and unity, I’m doing everything I can to make sure that no one else falls prey to those things.

Could you help me understand what you’re getting at? What are you trying to convince me of? I think I might just be dense here, but I feel like I’m missing something.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Sorry, Nate…
It’s not that I think you’re being dismissive, it’s just that between the four of us, we have approximately forty years of GCM experience… and we’ve never seen a change implemented in these areas–or to my knowledge, the areas mentioned on this blog. Also, I do believe that Dave Bovenmyer is trying to change things, but he’s been publicly trying since 1992, and probably before that and even he hasn’t been able to keep these things from happening. Sam tried to change things and he was in national leadership and with the movement for 25 years. Read mamad’s posts, they’re illuminating. This covers at least four churches of the people who have made themselves publicly known. There are others who have posted, others who are lurking, others who haven’t found us yet, and still others who are afraid. We’re not making it up.

I guess, my point in my posts is… yes, people have good hearts. Yes, there are some that want to change. But do you, now on the cusp of a new life with your wife, really want to devote yourself to a movement that needs changing so desperately? And if you can’t change it, how will you protect your children from hearing the teachings of others that you disagree with?

Why not go to a movement that you can get behind 100%? I am just wondering this. Maybe you will be the one who can help bring about change. But first you might want to investigate the history since the seventies, and then compare with things you see today, and then look ahead. Check out GCM warning. Check out the Blitz Papers. Check out Marching to Zion. Read the Statement of Errors. Read Cult Proofing Your Kids. Check out the history of Paul Martin at the Wellspring Retreat Center. Listen to the sermons by Jim McCotter. Listen to the history presented at Faithwalkers (there are links to all of these and more). And then decide whether or not you want to be with this movement for good. Decide whether or not you want to follow this movement to Madison.

We’re good people here too. You would like us if you knew us. We’re trustworthy. We love God. We love the church. We’re not out to perpetuate evil. We want truth and integrity to prevail. I appreciate your optimism, and if you feel up to it… we could probably work together on things that need to be addressed. Maybe change will happen this time and maybe it will stick. May God bless you.

[G_Prince]

Nate,

Be wary! GCIA (Great Commission Intelligence Agency) is watching! Your words here could easily be deemed divisive by headquarters. You may be surprised by how many people have been asked to delete blogs which contained “hurtful” material. You might also be surprised by slander spread by GCM leaders against people who left GCM. I suggest you post anonymously; you’re in unstable territory.

[Anonymous]

Be wary! GCIA (Great Commission Intelligence Agency) is watching!

I was thinking of saying the same thing, not quite like that though. More like, I will be surprised if nate’s comments are not deleted within a few weeks for “mysterious reasons” as that’s what usually happens when somebody posts something about GCM and attaches their name to it.. (it’s happened many times recently.) I do appreciate what you’ve said so far Nate, and I hope you keep posting.

[nateswinton]

gene -

ever hear the quote that “idealism increases in direct proportion to one’s distance from the problem”?

i’m a very sick individual in that i can sometimes be idealistic in the middle of problems. i speak partly in jest, which i would guess you also did (in part) in your post just now.

if anyone you vaguely alluded to approaches me like you say they might, i think i will gain a great deal of clarity on this issue. as it is though, i’ve already contacted two of my pastors and the guy that discipled me for the last two years and i’m wanting to open a dialogue with them on these things. this isn’t the only site i’ve been visiting, and they know.

God built me a certain way for a certain purpose. i’ve been steadily growing in my sense of identity in the last few years. i know he’s built me to be a tenacious bulldog, and a stickler for truth and justice, no matter how dirty or painful they are.

i don’t think i am where i am for nothing. i don’t think that’s part of a biblical world view. i think that God put me where I am so that I can glorify him. i’m very willing, even eager to dive deeply into this and bring things into the light. i won’t be an elder any time soon because i’m constantly walking a fine line between being civil and “pugnacious”, but that’s not going to jeprodize my ability to be a staffer.

i’m going to continue to innocently believe that this movement will not do the same things to me that happened to many of you, and to many many others. perhaps this will be an experiment. maybe my wife and i will join your ranks, or maybe you’ll all be able to see something concrete to hope in for GCM.

i’ll keep you all updated.

right now i’m helping to plan spring breaks, summer outreaches, and a church plant (madisonplant.wordpress.com). i’m discipling The Rock’s last two band leaders. i’m a new staffer. i personally know a dozen pastors from a dozen gcm churches. we’ll all find out in the next few months if i get silenced or rebuked. i’ve got nothing to hide from anyone.

[Anonymous]

I finally got around listened to the dating sermon mentioned in the marriage blog (Bill Young on Oct 1, 2006. “The Power of Distraction”), and there was a quote from it I couldn’t believe I was hearing, and I think it’s applicable to the topic of women being devalued:

“I evaluate all my relationships. I evaluate my wife’s relationships. I often have to sit down and- and we get a list of her friends, I say, ‘well.. these are your priorities. You don’t have enough time to meet with all these women but, here’s your priorities.’ - Bill Young

Does anyone else think telling your wife which of her friends she does and doesn’t have time for is going a bit overboard?

[nateswinton]

Oh man…

I just wrote that in an email as an example of “too much” from the stage like less than 20 minutes ago. This is too funny. (Maybe not funny at all?)

I’m on staff with GCM and am working toward becoming a pastor and planting a church and I think that’s totally overboard. I have no idea the full context in his life of how that all works out with him and his wife, but if I did that with my wife, I’d keep it a secret, honestly. Just being honest… about my potential dishonesty

My wife and I have a dual veto policy in our home. Both of us reach a 100% mutual agreement on everything. We both submit all the time to each other, but it’s always on things like “I have a prefrence and you have a need, so your need trumps my prefrence”. I’d never, ever tell her what to do with her relationships.

I’m also an emo-hippie though. So take that for what it’s worth

[AgathaL'Orange]

Oh yeah. That was one I wrote down too. If I heard this statement out of the context, I might brush it off as a just an odd way of wording it, but in light of the rest of the message? I just can’t believe he would say that. I’ll be honest, I don’t know the man. Maybe he is an absolutely great guy, but this is overboard I agree.

[Kirsten]

Maybe I am just too much the eternal optimist, but when I heard that I assumed it was something she wanted or asked him to do. There have definitely been times where I have asked my husband to help me make a decision on something, help me figure out priorities, etc. He knows me better than pretty much any other person, and I appreciate his insight and even *gasp* leadership.

I guess without asking Bill Young we really don’t know exactly where he was coming from on that.