"It was fun for them as long as they weren't getting spanked."

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[AgathaL'Orange]

Sigh.  Bill Young tells about a fun training "game" with his kids.  

I think it's about 17:30 in or so to "Laying it All Down" found at the Epicenter site.

http://epicenter.alivecf.com/

What is he thinking?

I'm also skeptical of anyone who uses the story of Abraham and Isaac and the "sacrifice" story to teach people unquestioning obedience.  I'm actually horrified.  This is extreme stuff.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Note to GC parents:  Candyland, Cranium, Life, and Go Fish are games.

Games don't involve physically punishing your children for not playing it right.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Bill Young "Lay It All Down"  (Pastor of The Rock Church, Salt Lake City)6/30/2010 at Epicenter Des Moines a ministry of Walnut Creek Community Church (member of Great Commission):

As we've raised our four boys, one of the things that we've tried to train them, not just hope, but train them is quick obedience.  

When we tell them to do something we want them to do it quickly, and we train them to do it quickly.  And what I mean is this:  My wife would train them literally, she get them all lined up when they were little just four of em she would train them for an hour, she would stand there and she'd give them commands in our house.  We homeschool so we could do this.  We'd take a break.  

And she'd tell J_______, "J_____ go grab that can of corn in the cupboard and take it up to your bedroom and then come back down."  

He would say "Okay Mommy". And he would go do it.  If he didn't, he would get disciplined.  It was a fun game for them when they weren't getting spanked.  It was a fun game for them.  

And then she would say to S______, "I want you to go outside. I want you to get the newspaper, and bring it back, and put it on the table and come back here."  

"Okay Mommy."  No arguing.  No complaining.  No questioning. Just do it.  Even if we said silly things.  If we said "Get a cup and put it on your head and stand there for one minute."   They were not allowed to ask a question when they're little.

[Linda]

This is awful, horrible, terrible, and teaches all sorts of bad things about God in the process. God is capricious. God is always demanding that we serve him. On the other hand, it probably explains why the errors of the McCotter era go uncorrected and why the group continues as it does.

No arguing. No complaining. No questioning.

I think every child has the right to ask why after they obey. And, the answer better not be, because I told you to and you have to obey me and serve me.

Child (after he/she stopped running): Why did you tell me to stop running? Parent: Because you were headed for the street and I don't want you to get hurt. = Good

Child (after putting a cup on his head and standing there for one minute): Why did you have me put a cup on my head? Parent: Don't question me. God wants you to obey me. = Very bad

Church member: Why did you tell me to never leave this church? Pastor: Because God wants you to give the controls of your life to me. Now stop complaining and obey me and if you leave I'm going to tell people that your are rebellious and they shouldn't associate with you. = GC

I remember a man in our small group once said, "We are supposed to obey our pastors. If my pastor told me to steal "Joe's" Beanie Babies (Joe was collecting Beanie Babies in the hopes they would go up in value.) and throw them at his (the pastor's) window, I would do it without questioning."

That should have been a clue. In fact, it was, and I was so troubled I said something like this to the pastor. "Hey, did you know that Joe thinks he is supposed to obey you to the point that he told the group he would steal some Beanie Babies and throw them at your window if you asked him to. I thought you should know." The assumption was that the pastor would kindly thank Joe for his misguided loyalty and then explain that he shouldn't violate his conscience to do anything, no matter who asked.

Looking back, I think that exchange proved me to be a rebel, and bumped Joe up on the pastor track!

[LucyB]

Fun?  An hour? These children are being abused in the worst way. This is insidious because the parents convince the child that unquestioning obedience pleases God. It is emotional and spiritual bullying behavior. These children will learn to be emotionally detached bullies, like their parents. Sickening.

[Huldah]

The assumption was that the pastor would kindly thank Joe for his misguided loyalty and then explain that he shouldn't violate his conscience to do anything, no matter who asked.

About a year after leaving my GC church, I was reading The Chronicles of Narnia for the first time. There's a scene in one of the books where Lucy is making excuses to Aslan for why she stayed with her brothers and sisters, even though Aslan had clearly called her to leave them and follow him. Finally, Lucy repents and confesses that she ought to have obeyed Aslan, no matter who wanted her to do otherwise. I was still so deeply under GC's influence at that time that my first thought was, "How amazing that someone like CS Lewis could get it so wrong. God would never call us to step outside His delegated authority."

[Linda]

Huldah, Narnia was also very helpful to me in painting a clear picture. The Lucy and Aslan dialogue that you referred to and also the donkey/fake Aslan in The Last Battle.

LucyB, I listened to the part of the message Agatha mentioned.The idea of a mom "training" her child for an hour each day also struck me. An hour? Teaching your children about God for an hour a day, fine. Reading books and playing "normal" childhood games for an hour, fine. Teaching obedience for an hour--truly cult like.

Of course, those deeply submerged in the GC way will label these posts as persecution. It is my hope, though, that some parent reading this, who is having doubts about the wisdom of this misguided training will understand that there are people who love the Lord (who believe the Gospel is everything and bringing glory to God in all we do is the only thing that matters in life) who are willing to shout loudly that this type of training is absolutely wrong.

[Huldah]

I'm also skeptical of anyone who uses the story of Abraham and Isaac and the "sacrifice" story to teach people unquestioning obedience.  I'm actually horrified.  This is extreme stuff.

Just remembered this. Not GC-related but in a similar vein.

I heard a Christian talk show once where someone called in to ask the name of Jephthah's daughter.  (She was the one who was sacrificed by her father, either to death or to perpetual virginity, depending on which interpretation you accept.) The caller's wife was expecting a little girl, whom he wanted to name in honor of Jephthah's daughter's spirit of unquestioning obedience.

Pretty extreme, in my opinion.

[G_Prince]

When you think about it GCx is really just a big cirucus so why wouldn't they train their kids like circus animals?

"all right kids, line up against the wall! For the next hour you will stand there and do what I tell you or I will hit you. No questions allowed, just do what I say. Okay, Joey, bring me that can of corn..no no..noo! The creamed corn! Okay now balance it on your head...what!??? You're only two? Stop making excuses Joey, for it grieves the Lord! When God told Abraham to slit his son's throat he didn't whine about it, he just obayed God and sharped his knife. If God tells me to make you balance a can of creamed corn on your head you better do it or you are going to get wacked!"

Some fun huh kids!

I really shouldn't ask this question because it is one in the morning, I have insomnia, and I am upset...but should these people really be allowed to have kids? Wouldn't social services at least be interested in this kind of "training"? Who do I have to call to check in on these parent monsters?   

[G_Prince]

Bill Young must be dead inside. No one could think or advocate the bullsh that constantly spews out of his mouth without their heart looking like a crumpled up pepsi can. I don't mean to judge other people...but really, how can this guy get up every morning. ....I know what you'd say Bill...."by the grace of God.." Well, I guess we'd both agree then that your life and idiology could only be sustained through supernatural means. So I guess you bum around Utah like a deflated miracle, sharing your holy gloom and sowing God's storm clouds in your wake. It must be tough...I feel sorry for you anyone who knows you.   

[AgathaL'Orange]

Their website is so full of misguided sermons.  When I get time I'll post the message about how God shares his power with leaders, husbands, and presidents so that they can do what God wants instead of God doing it all Himself.  It was a GCLI Q and A under special message at Experience the Rock Salt Lake City.  I mean they really believe they are STANDING IN FOR GOD.

(Edited to take out "trash" because I don't wish to be inflammatory.)  

[Linda]

I would be interested in listening to that, Agatha. Teaching God's Word, does not equal speaking for God. Also, some who teach God's Word are false teachers. Just because someone says they were chosen by God because a group of men who also said they were recognized by God recognized them does not a pastor make! My general rule of thumb now is that if someone is constantly asking for your money, your time, or your commitment to them (and by them I mean their particular organization), proceed very carefully or maybe turn and run.

Our children may be tiny people, who I think we all will agree need to be trained and disciplined (and by trained and disciplined I don't mean blind obedience and constant spanking), but nevertheless, they are human beings, made in the image of God. I am reminded of this quote.

There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations--these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit--immortal horrors or everlasting splendours. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of the kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously--no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption. And our charity must be real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinners--no mere tolerance, or indulgence which parodies love as flippancy parodies merriment. Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses. If he is your Christian neighbour, he is holy in almost the same way, for in him also Christ vere latitat, the glorifier and the glorified, Glory Himself, is truly hidden.

Matthew 18:10 also comes to mind.

See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

[Immortal_Raven]

Wow, just wow.  This practice sounds no better than instilling Stockholm Syndrome in someone.  Prisoners forced to cooperate in hopes of avoiding a beating.  I fail to see the different between a prison and Bill Young's parenting techniques.  Intentionally scarring a child for life is not ok, in fact, it should be criminally prosecuted.

-Immortal_Raven

[wastedyearsthere]

I remember at GCx leader telling me the reason he doesn't have trials or need a spiritual "spanking" as he called it was because he does EVERYTHING God tells him to.  No wonder everytime something bad happens I automatically think what did I do to deserve this from God?  That is must be God's "discipline/spanking".    Being in that church too long taught me to always expect God to be spanking me when I wasn't perfectly obedient. 

The way the church uses spanking I believe is abusive.  Testing children and then spanking them?  This is atrocious.

[Linda]

I listened to part of that Laying it All Down Sermon today and something struck me that had nothing to do with spanking. At one point, he asked the listener something like, what is it that you won't give to God, what area of your life do you say to God, this is mine. He went on to say that for some it might be porn, or finances by not being willing to tithe, etc., but it dawned on me that there is something very glaring with GC teachers that they hang on to and will not surrender to God. They have made an idol of their movement of churches. And, worse yet, they equate their movement with God to the point that they don't see GC as an idol at all, but as God. Serving GC IS serving God. Their movement is different--it's not just a church it's "special". Furthermore, they malign the true Bride of Christ when they put down other churches and denominations which they do on a regular basis.