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Author Topic: Any Spiritual Danger?  (Read 16394 times)
skewed_grace
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« on: January 06, 2008, 05:52:08 pm »

Even though i just joined the forum, i've been reading a lot of threads, and almost feel like i know each one of you personally. with that said, i wanted to hear what you think about the following:


while i am aware of the negative effects of the GCx's structure on one's behavior socially, i am struggling to clearly delineate the spiritual consequences of such a system.

the facade of the lives of those heart and soul commited to the church is impeccable. they genuinely seem to be striving to lead a righteous life. to the best of their ability they read the bible, pray for those around, serve, and etc.  the reason i am asking is because i still keep in touch with one of the members of the church. we talk about why i left. he is fine with it. he just says it's not my type of church. however, somewhere deep in me i feel like it's not just a matter of preference. i can't always put my finger on why though. even though i disagree with a lot of their theology, for the most part it's pretty common for evangelicals.

so, i'd be interested to hear what you guys think about it (and if possible, let's not make this conversation strictly doctrinal).

thanks
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theresearchpersona
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2008, 09:20:33 pm »

Today's "evangelicals" are properly the "neo-evangelicals", whereas the originals were separatists for the sake of the gospel (which did have to do with doctrine).

Remember Paul warning that people would gather to themselves teachers that would tickle their ears? The Church Growth models GCM built on attracts people this way...and keeps people this way. It's really sad. You're right when what's at stake here isn't just a matter of preference...but what people are doing is preferentially selecting what they want to hear and/or obey.

This is an excellent topic to bring up and I'm very glad that you did; I'd like to say more, but at least for now want to wait for others to chime-in and discuss things. Maybe they might say it better.  : )
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maranatha
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2008, 09:36:04 pm »

Do you think it comes down to results of  poor biblical theology?

"If man does not live on bread alone, but on the Word of God (Matt 4:4), then whether or not we get our theology right...will have an effect on the health of our churches.
• Biblical theology is like multi-grain bread - there's stuff in there that's really good for you. When we water down the theology of the Bible to avoid conflict, we bleach out the spiritual nutrients that cause growth, and begin to feed people on a white bread theology that has nearly no nutritional value."

http://content.christianity.com/2/38077/2_38077_TeachersNotesMark2.Teacher_Notes.pdf
(above quote is from www.9marks.com )

Not sure if this really is related to your question, though, skewed grace, about negative spiritual consequenses.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2008, 10:33:19 pm »

I spent the evening with my former priest and my current priest, and we had a great conversation about evangelicals, mainline protestants, catholics, and eastern orthodoxy.  

Some big differences in belief that affect the way the eastern church and the western church practice Christianity come down to a fundamental difference in WHO we are as humans.  It seems that a greater emphasis is placed in the eastern church on man moving towards God rather than God moving towards man.  The belief is that God has ALREADY moved towards man by becoming a man, being baptized and by dying on the cross (and of course other things too!)  Today was the Blessing of the Waters, and at this time our priest discussed how Christ's baptism was a sanctification of creation and how OUR baptism was a sanctification OF us.  How Christ's baptism was actually a BIG deal, not just a model for us to follow, but an actual blessing of the waters and creation.  As to the difference in belief of WHO we are as humans, there is a huge emphasis on how we as Christians are created in God's image.

These are just a few fundamental differences that have been reshaping my thinking as I exited a Protestant evangelical fundamentalism (TACO should be inserted here!!!) church.

I guess what I am trying to say is, "Yes, my spiritual walk is much different than when I was in GC."  But I would like to say that I am not completely "recovered" yet.  I am exerting about one tenth of the effort in my current Christian walk, which I am certainly not proud of!  At the same time, I feel more spiritually sane than ever before.  I would like to become more like Jesus and to become more divinely connected with God, but I am willing to see this emerge gradually over time.  Before I wanted it NOW.

I also personally believe that the "best" expression of Christianity is found in the Orthodox church, BUT I am not so naive or narrow to think that Christians are only found here!  Of course not!  I will be the first to say that Christians are found in all sorts of churches EVERYWHERE!  And I feel that I am in unity with many of you on here!  

I am sorry this is long, but I am still mulling these things over in my thinking as well.
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skewed_grace
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2008, 11:30:45 pm »

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skewed_grace
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 11:33:59 pm »

Thanks a lot to everybody who replied so far.


Theresearchpersona,
i agree with you. GCx and other similar churches have created a culture which caters to the needs of the instant gratification mentality. thus, a lot of times people select which church to go to based on the promises it gives. the bigger the promises, the larger turn-outs there will be. i think it's been said on this forums multiple of times that the theology GCx churches preach is very pleasing to the ears. it's very simple, yet very-very rewarding.


Maranatha,
i have no doubt that poor biblical theology has far-reaching consequences. after all, the truth that is supposed to set us free won't. if i ever had to choose my favorite verse ever, that would be it. i don't know exactly how this freedom should feel, but i know that whatever i felt  before was
nothing close to freedom. every sunday i would emulate the feeling though. it was very easy to convince everybody around, but i could never convince myself. i would go to bed and think that everything i was doing was a role i'd been assigned in this master-game. i became really good at it: i knew the rules of the game and had my own tactics how to advance. but then again, when left alone with myself, i felt uneasy. finally, i grew out of my role...so, my point, i guess, is that because of the GCx's emphasis on shepherding, the experience people get is second-hand, i.e. not exactly their own. and even though believers are encouraged to study the bible themselves, their thinking is subject to subtle manipulation of the leaders. ultimately, i am not sure if everybody is able to, at any given moment, peel off their own experience of finding god from the ones of their leaders.

AgathaL'Orange,
excellent post. it wasn't long. as a matter of fact, it wasn't long enough. i agree with you on so many things and am sure would agree even more if you share your experience in greater details. my understanding of god and the truth has become somewhat intuitive (definitely something i am not proud of) since i left the GCM church. to me, you are so right when saying that none of the christian churches are the ultimate representation of the original apostolic church; however, i feel that the churches today are like pieces of a broken vessel. you look at some - and have a better idea of what the original shape was. others are so small and awkward-looking that it's almost impossible to tell anything about what they used to be a part of. furthermore, the orthdox church seems to me the biggest piece i've been able to find so far. the one that's preserved the color and somewhat of a shape of the once whole vessel.


I will be waiting to see what other people think about the original question i posted in this thread.

Thanks
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Linda
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2008, 10:39:54 am »

Quote
the spiritual consequences of such a system

Things that come to mind off the bat are:

A works righteousness

A misunderstanding of grace

A system that puts men between believers and God

Quote
they genuinely seem to be striving to lead a righteous life. to the best of their ability they read the bible, pray for those around, serve, and etc.

Ultimately, the Gospel isn't about what we can do for God, it's about what God did for us.

Agatha wrote:
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It seems that a greater emphasis is placed in the eastern church on man moving towards God rather than God moving towards man.

Reminds me of these verses from Hebrews:
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Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,  by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
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Daisy
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2008, 10:42:12 pm »

I felt isolated and disgusted by God's people, so it drove me away from wanting to seek Him regularly, though He still drew me to Him and so I continued to irregularly read His Word.

I still have a hard time trusting in fellowship, telling others what I struggle with and getting accountability is something I am just now trying two years after I have left.

The first while after I was ready to start trying church again I felt frightened, sometimes even panicked that the new church would be just like my GC experience.  Along with this is a distrust of pastors and teachings, though I have found that I have a very heightened sense of works based salvation now.

These are the ways that I was spiritually altered by GC..not permanently but I was changed and it changed how I see God.

I also have to remember that God will not throw people out of His Kingdom, nor them based on sin (particularly repetitive sin).
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skewed_grace
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2008, 11:47:28 pm »

Linda,

to be honest, even though what you assumed about works righteousness seems very logical, it was the opposite in the church i was a part of. which kind of seems logical if you come to think of it more :wink: i felt like all the attempts to emulate righteousness were out of spiritual complacency. and the spiritual maturity exerted, in my opinion, was a little forced, and thus had a touch of discarded kindness. sort of like a duty, socially assumed but emotionally not internalized. I think it was a result of the over-confidence in your own salvation...often it was the salvation preached, and not Christ.


Daisy,

i can, for sure, share the sentiment. the whole accountability thing will probably haunt me for the rest of my life. i am all for a naturally evolved relationship where people feel comfortable to share the struggles, but i will always have a hard time understanding an artificially created friendship...


thanks for the comments so far,
later
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G_Prince
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 02:49:53 pm »

This church is spiritually harmful.

It taught me that God is a very unforgiving judge set to burn 99% of humanity and that our task as Christians is to be little saviors to the world by sharing the gospel and having our lives be a witness to non-believers. GCx taught me that if you really sell out you can save your friends from hell's fiery bowels by convincing them to (a.) say "the prayer" (b.) go to a GCx church (C.) give up on all their dreams and ambitions and ultimately on themselves and (d.) go to a s***-ton of meetings.

Never mind that God has given us an impossible task to accomplish, reach the entire world before everyone dies and goes to hell...go out and try! "Do it because you love God and others!" "What kind of person selfishly sits around  and enjoys life while the world is perishing and millions of people are daily being added to Hell's furnace?" "Get out there and save!"  

GCx never let me stop and wonder why God, in his infinite power and wisdom along with his desire for all men to be saved, didn't come up with a better plan than to rely so heavily on GCx to save the world. And why this God was burning so many people in the first place...What kind of spiritual tyrant were we serving? Let's just say that question was rather taboo.

So in order to fulfill the impossible we had better at least get organized. GCx taught me that thinking for myself and deciding what I wanted to do with my life was extremely inefficient. In order to best placate the God-tyrant it would work best if you emulated your leaders in every facet of their life, and that you obey whatever they told you without question...never mind if there is no scriptural basis for what they are telling you, they are your LEADERS not your advisers or recommenders.

GCx taught me to give up on myself and my dreams. If your talents weren't spiritually useful or couldn't make lots of money which you could then give to the church then you had best just hunker down and go on staff. "What? you have poor personal skills and no concept of theology or church history?  No problem we can work with that, do it all the time in fact...as long as you can go through our simple seven year process of eradicating your free will and taking on ours, you can be a leader!!!"

Finally GCx also taught me not to trust others, especially other Christians who might "gasp" invite you to their church. The world was a very evil dangerous place, and almost all other churches were influanced and swayed by it. That is why you had to stay in the last remaining bastion of Christianity...the GCx church. Don't wander or the wolves will get you.

Spiritually harmful?...yes.
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skewed_grace
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 08:47:00 pm »

Quote from: "G_Prince"

It taught me that God is a very unforgiving judge set to burn 99% of humanity and that our task as Christians is to be little saviors to the world by sharing the gospel and having our lives be a witness to non-believers.


thank you for voicing it out. this whole "god is a just judge" interpretation could never sit well with me either.
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theresearchpersona
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2008, 01:52:51 am »

God is, of course, a judge. I think, however, that un-taught Christians often do not understand the ways (ways, not "way") "judge" and "judgement" etc. are used in the word. It even says the righteous "judge the fatherless". Scripture's use of the word is nuanced...in a way english typically isn't, and it requires good teaching and prayer to come to understanding that, and what those different nuances are.

God is a just judge, mind you, for he knows not only actions, but even the hearts of men; and He judges with righteous judgment without fail. Jesus actually uses a command to us to "judge", but he says "judge with righteous judgment"; and unlike God we do not determine men's fates, only declare the judgments God has already declared: and given men warning of.

It is God says that he will punish unrighteousness; and that blood is required to wash away sin. The animal sacrifices...only covered it; Christ's washes it away. Jesus said that few find the way to life (and it isn't talking about "your best life now" or some way of living: he's talking about himself, personally). The narrow road, remember?

But here's an important part that gets missed. We're not "little saviors". Does the world need to hear the gospel preached unadulterated, with a Christ that's no other, and not twisted, yes. But what did Christ say the world would do toward His sheep? Hate them. Persecute them. And etc...GCM takes any criticism as that persecution (when it happens to be coming from Christians...) and then preaches we're to be a friend to the world. And supposedly this is our witness, in GCM's system.

And we're not to live solely to be witnesses...a Christian who lives for the worship of God (this does not mean making music and dancing around...though those are good praise) in EVERYTHING...as we're commended, will naturally by the GRACE of God's Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of Christ, according to knowledge and Truth (His word): be a witness. And they won't deny Him, either, nor fail, I think, to profess Jesus: the real Jesus, not the many the world wants to fabricate.

It's not our task to build the Church; we do have duties, but as Jesus said, to those who love the Lord, His commands are not burdensome. They're a joy. All the "Church Growth", "Seeker Sensitive", "Small groups", and so on...is about men building a church, but not Christ's church. I'd venture to say Christ's Church is very small.

And God is unforgiving: sin demands penalty; however he's the God who said "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice" to those who skewed his judgment to make themselves a works-righteousness. God has forgiven those that believed...at a cost He paid. He doesn't, however, fail to say that those that don't are "condemned already".

Leaving either of those parts out...leaves the counsel of God incomplete and twisted. Here's another example. Rick Warren wrote "The Purpose Driven Church/Life" books. In the second (...Life) he quotes the New Living Translation (a poor paraphrase):

Quote
“The intelligent man is always open to  new ideas. In fact, he looks for them” (Proverbs 18:15).


But here's the whole translation:

“The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.”

How many times did people hear about not being too into getting knowledge, in GCM? Where the pastors said it was selfish to want to be Bible Scholars (which I rarely ever saw people attempt...they just wanted the food God prepared for them; besides, it says "study thyself approved, a workman unto the Lord, rightly dividing the word of Truth, so that you will not be ashamed") in order to push people away from study the word too much. Then another pastor would come along saying the a chapter a day wasn't enough...hours a day wasn't enough. No wonder some people who left have hatred: they've been thoroughly messed with.

Here's another scripture Rick wrests:

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"The Lord has made everything for his own purposes." (Proverbs 16:4, NLT)


And here's the full quote from the NLT:

Quote
“The Lord has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for punishment.”


And here's it from the KJV:

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“The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil”


and the NASB:

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“The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”


and this is one (of many) non-biblical wolfish influences from which GCM directly draws teachings and often whole books of materials, forms, "commitment" agreements...which incidently the PD Church books says one of the purposes of that covenant is to determine what kind of people will stay at "your" church or go: but Jesus said not to take oaths, and James 5:12 says not to "above all else" so that you will not fall into condemnation: those "commitments" (covenants) are especially made so that you will when you cross their own agenda for the "church". What's troubling is that GCM teaches in the same style as Warren...wresting scripture, and falsely.

I think GCM has a serious problem whereby enthusiasm they preach a lot of nonsense, and not enough gospel, and often a false one depending on the current "christian" fad (like the PD models the group has so thoroughly imbibed), and then create attendants, enthusiastic participants, but not converts; and these people will be not only deceived, but being unborn, heavily burdened. It's like causing an abortion before they have a chance to really hear Christ. These people are the ones twice the child of hell, just as the Pharisees made, and I really mourn for them. They're not bidden to "come in".

Then there's the Christians there who are simply burdened by twisting, meat when they never got real milk, or hurt because the teaching comes down to saying "save the world" when we cannot; that's why CHRIST must be preached. And the Church doesn't exist to save the world, but to call-out the "elect", or "the chosen", according to the Word. GCM wants to make the Church Mars Hill, rather than going there and calling people away from that spiritually dead place. You notice that when Paul was there he didn't "build bridges", but rather used their culture, NOT for praising it, or to show how beautiful humanity was, but when you read close you find Paul undermining and exposing to the Greeks how futile their "culture" and ideas are: and then proclaiming the glory of Jesus Christ. GCM, and many groups like it, don't get this: and they twist that verse. No wonder the people he (Paul) preached to would hate and attack him; yet GCM wants us to all have a nice little dialogue and at the end have the hearers say "oh how soft-spoken and gentle he was"!, well, depending on which pastor it is: others want the "how cool" or to use offense to attract crowds, rather than simply preaching the offense. Reminds me of Tom Short holding up a sign about how scientists made monkeys of themselves with evolution.

And here's something I think you might agree with. Instead of preaching to be a witness to Christ, they preach to witness by being cool (a friend) to the world: and how fun it is, how "christ" has made your life better (but really it's something anyone can do: I can go to the bars, rock-climb, mountain bike, slack-line, bbq, throw a big park party with food, and do a bunch of fun but spiritually empty activities too, all on my own, with Christians or not, but don't hear the word there: which the world cannot compete with). They need to preach the Word of God that the Father may wash and sanctify the sheep just like Jesus prayed for them (John 17). They need to preach holiness yes, but not works-holiness devoid of the neglected Holy Spirit subject to fear of men, rather than of God; if GCM really believed in holiness they'd be kicking-out unrepentant sinners just as the NT commands the Churches. But rather they preach that sinners aren't repenting because as christians they don't understand who they are; but in reality many "christians" show NONE of the marks given by the NT whereby we're to discern a person, and those people need to hear, JUST AS MUCH AS THE BELIEVERS, NOT who they are, but who Christ is: and that's involved teaching, but to the Christian it's also real food, and satisfying.

And then as God washes a newborn Christian, HE matures them. HE develops them spiritually, rather than "Spiritual Disciplines/formation" or "Contemplative Spirituality/prayer" "models" whereby people make themselves feel religious through adopted mysticism and paganistic practices. What did Jesus say to Peter, for instance? "Feed my sheep". What does the pastor do? (To "pasture" sheep actually means to feed them.) What did Jesus say man lived on? Not bread alone, but every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

What ends up happening, that is sickening, is that with all the twisting, and all the burdening, they not only drive away hearers, but deceive some to stay; and they not only teach good, but because of twisting make it bad, and make those who realize "this is all wrong" think that even Scriptural things, that are good, are wrong by the association.

So when one asks, "are their spiritual consequences" here, or dangers: yes, very definitely. There is in any group or system that does anything like these things.
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