Any thoughts on these thought stopping cliches?

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[exshep]

I have a friend who has been out of GC since  c2000.  I was able to demonstrate that Christian love and slander: evil accusation are imcompatible. I cannot love a brother and slander him at the same time.

Anyome want to take on "you are persecuting me".   It is  great insulating mind control trick.

The other one is "I cannot listen to negative information".  That works fine unless you are an emporer who new clothes are nothing but the latest in Fruit of the Loom.  

I would be interested to see what feedback is generated.

[namaste]

Well, I don't know if I have much to add in the area of productive thoughts, but I can certainly add a few to the list.

I once heard a pastor say that he didn't mind all of the people who were leaving our church.  He felt like God was simply "pruning the bad wood" from our church (he derived this from "I am the vine, you are the branches").

On the gcc website, where the reference criticism, the error statement, etc., they say several times that they feel that criticisms are either things that happened in the 70s and 80s that have long since been resolved or that they're unfair.  They never defined what unfair is.  This of course begs the question: who gets to decide what constitutes a "fair" criticism?

[exshep]

On the gcc website, where the reference criticism, the error statement, etc., they say several times that they feel that criticisms are either things that happened in the 70s and 80s that have long since been resolved or that they're unfair.  They never defined what unfair is.  This of course begs the question: who gets to decide what constitutes a "fair" criticism?

Obviously the forum has decredited that in heartbeat. I did receive a personal email from a former member of  a GC Church which evolved from the Columbus church.  Why did the person leave in 2005? Banging head trying to reason with the elders.  

The rewrite of history marches on.   I love the elder who denied there was a church at my alma mater.   I find that interesting because I  preached with him, had dinner with his church,  and have pored over documents in University archives.    The other incident was harmless enough, but interesting. I realized the pastor of the church I attended slid past a former pastor's existance.   The particular church was extremely healthy and had nominal GC connections.  I only bring  up  as a case in point.

[jehu]

I always thought that "Hurt people hurt people" was a classic.  Thanks Steve Nelson.  This boiled all criticisms of "the church family" not conducted in only whatever venue GC elders found acceptable as "lashing out".  

The one I really hate, though, as being entirely symptomatic of the kind of 'learned helplessness'  that psychologists talk about as a side effect of coercive persuasion is "God is sovereign".  It's one thing to observe the mighty power of our Creator, and entirely another thing to resign one's free will to all negative events as being of divine consequence.

[exshep]

The one I really hate, though, as being entirely symptomatic of the kind of 'learned helplessness' that psychologists talk about as a side effect of coercive persuasion is "God is sovereign". It's one thing to observe the mighty power of our Creator, and entirely another thing to resign one's free will to all negative events as being of divine consequence.

I had posted on another forum that a former member would not entertain negative thoughts and that her church was being persecuted.  

I have not figured how to disarm the "persecution complex".  The negative thoughts one is for me actually quite easy.  Some may take exception to my quoting Freud when he says that sometimes  a cigar is just a cigar.  Innuendo aside, the moral is do not read into something that is not there.  This suffer of OCD is guilty of this one--   but that is another post.  

I used to fear a negative thought, when in my group as being from Satan.  If I entertained it, hell would swallow me whole.  It certainly kept me in bondage to the bible school for a spell.  What I learned is it was not the Holy Spirit, but the will of group leading.  I came to realize there is a serious flaw to ignore a "negative thought".  The emporer ignored the negative thoughts until a child pointed out that he was wearing the latest in  Fruit of the Loom.   The thoughts that I am taught to ignore may be most helpful.  If I get a negative review at work, I need to work harder and change my style to the benefit of my customers and the company.  I could ignore the check engine light, only to be stuck halfway between Columbus and Cleveland.  Sometimes the negative thoughts is nothing more than an offhand observation. It is interesting  how are groups used to enslave us with such verbiage.

[exshep]

The one I really hate, though, as being entirely symptomatic of the kind of 'learned helplessness' that psychologists talk about as a side effect of coercive persuasion is "God is sovereign". It's one thing to observe the mighty power of our Creator, and entirely another thing to resign one's free will to all negative events as being of divine consequence.

I had posted on another forum that a former member would not entertain negative thoughts and that her church was being persecuted.  

I have not figured how to disarm the "persecution complex".  The negative thoughts one is for me actually quite easy.  Some may take exception to my quoting Freud when he says that sometimes  a cigar is just a cigar.  Innuendo aside, the moral is do not read into something that is not there.  This suffer of OCD is guilty of this one--   but that is another post.  

I used to fear a negative thought, when in my group as being from Satan.  If I entertained it, hell would swallow me whole.  It certainly kept me in bondage to the bible school for a spell.  What I learned is it was not the Holy Spirit, but the will of group leading.


Of course in such fear, it was easy to forget the very end of Matthew where Jesus says that he will be with us until the end of time.  A Columbus church member in the mid 80s fired back at me,  "That comes from Cult Awareness Network. They used that for deprogramming".  
"Wrong, Jesus said it, long before we were born"
It did get awfully quiet.  I did graciously end the phone call and let the member off the hook.

[namaste]

One that goes along the line of "persecution" is the idea of "spiritual attacks."  When things weren't going so well at our old gc church, the pastor would break out some line about how something REALLY important must be going on in our church, because if it weren't, the devil wouldn't be working so hard against it.  :roll:

It was a great justification for more of the same.  If you weren't on board for it, you weren't in God's will.  Because for satan to be working so hard to stop it, it must be really important to God!  :roll:  :lol:

[exshep]

One that goes along the line of "persecution" is the idea of "spiritual attacks."  When things weren't going so well at our old gc church, the pastor would break out some line about how something REALLY important must be going on in our church, because if it weren't, the devil wouldn't be working so hard against it.  :roll:

It was a great justification for more of the same.  If you weren't on board for it, you weren't in God's will.  Because for satan to be working so hard to stop it, it must be really important to God!  :roll:  :lol:

Will have to replay that in my mind.   I know what you mean.   The GC church went through  a feeling of discouragement if the attendance was down.  At least we made it an issue of prayer as opposed to manipulation.  Score one for the pastor on that one.

[exshep]

It's one thing to observe the mighty power of our Creator, and entirely another thing to resign one's free will to all negative events as being of divine consequence.

I was introduced to the black/white concept  early on.  Something is either of God or Satan.  It so easy to spiritualize.  This thankfully happened over  20  years ago. I was able to make amends with those affected.  I was aggressively recruiting a college coed into a group on campus.   It got to the point that if she understandably rebuffed me, it was translated as satanic oppression.  It got to the point that I entertained voices of moderation (You know, Shep, you should really back off and let the Lord work  in the situation), I was afraid I was going to loose my salvation.  The God/Satan dichotomy was firmly entrenched.  

When I did leave my groups, I was able to see a pragmatic side to things.  It might be of the Lord. It might be of Satan.  It could  that I had something to play in this.  Perhaps I need to take personal responsibility for it.  It could be nothing more than pragmatic coincidence.  A rather young and attractive lady real estate agent somehow encountered me in remote corners of the city.   The crowning blow for her was when the bus stop accross from where I lived was right in front of her office.   I smiled, "eh, it's just pragmatic coincidence. Nothing pyschic. I would not loose sleep over it".

[jehu]

Here's an old one, still being used quite often.

"Don't lean on your own understanding."

[exshep]

Here's an old one, still being used quite often.

"Don't lean on your own understanding."

I love the blantant misquote.  It goes on to say, acknowlege him and he will make the paths straight.

[banished]

Using the bible out of context was so out of control at the GC church I went to.

Example: I met with the pastor and one of the pastoral interns to discuss some very serious sin issues in the pastors life that needed to be addressed. After acnowldging and dismissing my concerns, they try and set up a meeting to share pastor D's 'hurts' with us. I agreed to come, but was insistent that my wife not be there because of the emotional abuse that she had previously experienced. The pastoral intern demanded that she meet with them and do so immediatly. The justification - John Ch8 The adulterous woman

When Jesus said "from now on sin no more." He did not say tomorrow sin no more or next week sin no more, He said immediatly sin no more.- paraphrased statement of what the pastoral intern said

1. We were not being accused of sin, only meeting to 'share their hurts'
2. It was not sin for us to not meet with them
3. They were the only ones accusing us of anything, 'the pharisees'?

[jehu]

And that's the direct side-affect of thought-stopping in a setting that relies very heavily on the infallibility of Scripture: really bad examples of eisegesis.

[exshep]

And that's the direct side-affect of thought-stopping in a setting that relies very heavily on the infallibility of Scripture: really bad examples of eisegesis.

Yep,

That is why I have difficulty with an inerrant take on scripture.

[unsubscribed]

Has anyone been told "We need to all be working with the same set of information, or we all need to be on the same page"?  My husband and I recieved this comment on two seperate occasions when the leaders wanted us to spy and report back to them about some people whom they had lost control of.  For my part, a pastors wife who had never invited me over to her house after 10 years suddenly asked  me to come to lunch.  I knew something was up and ate and tried to leave then she dropped the" we all need to be on the same page" about a mutual friend. I politely told her I would not disclose private conversations between me and our friend .  The pastors wife told me she was a prophet and that the mutual friend was in sin. Other things were said but that is another topic. The friends husband also wanted me to tell him about my conversations with his wife; I did not touch that with a 10 ft pole. My husband got the same  odd request about a man that had rejected the counsel of the pastor and his team of helpers who were helping our friend with a drug problem. The team wanted to take over his finances and told him not to go to AA. Our friend asked how many people this team had successfully  helped kick a drug problem which was 0.  Our friend just needed a friend not someone to tell him what to do. he needed someone to support him as a friend not a project. we love this guy he is awesome and does not need someone to pay his electric bill or rent for him. What he needed from this team was love, support and spiritual guidance not a babysitting service.  He already had a sponser with AA to help with the addiction.  what a crock.  Love?  wouldn't that be what happens when you really care for someone and you don't leave them high and dry just because you don't see eye to eye with them?  As it happens it was much better for this guy to be rejected by GCM and get clean and find people who really love him for himself.  I still wonder how God will want this answered in the end. Wow that turned into a rant I'm sorry.guess this is still raw with me.

unsubscribed.

[lone gone]

I am constantly reminded of an episode in King David's life when I think about this topic. King David had to flee Jerusalem due top the rebellion of his son. On the way , a man came out and verbally chastised David as he walked by. David's men asked him if he wanted the man killed.  David replied, "no, perhaps God told him to say those things"

No negative thought can be known to be negative until it is heard.

No person can understand the difference until they become aware of the difference.

To be mature we need to be able to know the difference.

In essence, we need to listen to everything and become mature enough to sort it out.

But if any elder, pastor, deacon, spiritual advisor teaches that the followers should not even listen to negatives, they have just commited their flock to a life of spiritual childhood.

In my experience, these self appointed, or interally raised leaders are spiritual children in their own right.

[unsubscribed]

We have been told that the  leadership in GCM  are God's anointed and I don't discredit that they are.  They deserve the respect of their position but this does not mean they are not human or infallible.  In fact scripture says they should be held to a higher standard because they have taken on the role of elder.  There are many cases in the Bible where leaders appointed by God were fallible. classic example: Saul, Gods first annointed king of Isreal who later fell out of grace because of his blatent disregard for God's law (sin). I find it interesting that leaders have refered to themselves as 'God's annointed'  but never see themselves as being like Saul; out of God's will and someone you have to run from.  Like David we have to discern between reasonable disobedience to our leaders without disrespecting them. unfortunatly the leaders we have encountered look at questioning or disclosing problems as a personal attack on their Holy Annointing insead of having the heart of God's humble servant who does not consider himself better than others.  We are made to feel guilty like we have broken some cardinal law when we question those in authority over us.  I think it is more important that we do what is right in the eyes of God than worry about what these men think of us.  Let God handle the rest.  As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

unsubscribed

[theresearchpersona]

Could you tell us who said that the leadership are "God's Annointed"; the reason being that according to the Word ALL saints, that is, all those who are believers trusting in Jesus Christ, saved by Him, are now God's annointed.

See
http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop-np&cof=AH:left%3BS:http://cicministry.org/%3BCX:Critical%2520Issues%2520Commentary%3BL:http://cicministry.org/images/fp_graphic.jpg%3BLH:96%3BLP:1%3BGFNT:%23666666%3BDIV:%23cccccc%3B&cx=011928788699197203862:gc5-o9vajci&adkw=AELymgVJ3HqsKfOJlWeHFdMvyzxC4R7LT8XUflLSFmqaaXkcwqMHyOLwihWnQiw_LX-jiJCkbEssDUh7Xq8us8sWMXro3ud1yOKEKQmc5lQePDoxqwbGyT0&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=the+lord%27s+anointed&spell=1

[jehu]

Let God handle the rest.  As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

O th' irony.