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Author Topic: Article: Why Churches Disbelieve Victims and Believe Pastoral Abusers  (Read 32048 times)
Huldah
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2018, 08:44:18 am »

Humiliation comes from doing something mindfully on purpose that you find to be wrong.

Greentruth, you don't get to make up your own definitions.

From Webster's: "to reduce (someone) to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes : to make (someone) ashamed or embarrassed"; example phrase, "(they) hoped they wouldn't humiliate themselves in their next game."

You don't get to redefine words to suit your own agenda. Now please have the courtesy to keep this thread on-topic.
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araignee19
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 08:55:51 am »

Humiliation can also come from feeling like you didn't see something you should have. It is very difficult to admit you were "duped," because it feels like admitting you were not smart enough to see something you should have. To me, having to admit I was wrong often feels like I'm admitting I was stupid. And I think avoiding that humiliation can be a very powerful motivator for sure. I don't like looking stupid.
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2018, 09:44:35 am »

Hulda, I’m sorry, how was I off topic? Humiliation was being discussed, and I made a simple comment of when I have been humiliated. I agree with what araignee19 interjected. I see some are trying to push I’m of topic, which is kind of funny from what I have seen here.

No one who wasn’t personally involved with Suzanne conflict need feel any humiliation. When all the truths are known we can see if we have been, asyou called it,duped
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2018, 10:09:26 am »

Omelianchunk, I think I understand what you're saying about the shared history.  Like, when little is known about both choices, we will default to the familiar.  But you seem to be saying that we might know quite a bit about one of the choices, so it's more than just recognizance or familiarity.  Is that a fair understanding?

I agree that many examples of familiarity bias were tested superficially.  The concept is also related to the availability heuristic, when we make decisions based on the information we can easily recall, as we determine that to be important.  So, what I can recall is that I have never experienced a pastor embezzling money, and I have seen no direct signs that my pastor has embezzled money--what is available are these impressions: no apparent preoccupation with material goods, no fancy car, no frequent sermons about giving. So when the auditor claims things are not right with the books (and the pastor alone manages the finances), my familiarity with my pastor and experience that pastors don't embezzle cause me to make a choice. What is available and seemingly known to me causes a cognitive dissonance and my brain uses one of these shortcuts to get some resolution (and in this case we'll say the pastor did embezzle).

I think these biases and cognitive shortcuts do not also mean that we all get locked in to that, only that these processes are likely to be our first reactions and it takes conscious consideration to get past them.  We are not as rational and objective as we might think, there are subconscious things going on.  And we might return to our initial reactions after using more cognitive processes, so it's also not to say that our "rule of thumb" is always wrong. Just that it can mislead us without us being aware of it.

I definitely see your point. I can't recall all of the studies right now (not sure if that's a cognitive bias or old age, lol!) but material presented in the book "Willful Blindness" would confirm the more in-depth preference for the known or the familiar.  So when I read the article, based on my availability heuristic, it jived with my past experience Wink


I did poke around more but am including these 2 wikipedia articles because they summarize the 2 biases/heuristics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familiarity_heuristic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2018, 08:01:17 am »

Here is another reason why church members don't believe others who call out abuse.  It is prominent in churches that practice very authoritarian control.  It is also the indoctrinated "defense" of turning a blind eye to harmful abuse.  Although it was posted a few years ago it is worth repeating.


The "BITTER" Lie


How many of us speaking openly and honestly about our experience in GCx after leaving were accused of being "bitter"?

The unspoken pact of silence in discussing our feelings and experiences while in GCx is what perpetuates the continuation of abuse there. This site (there are a few others though not exclusive to GCx) seems an open forum set up and promoted by our Heavenly Father, himself; to finally allow a voice to those who were severely spiritually hurt by their experience in this so-called "church" or "christian" organization. Thank God for the starters and maintainers of this safe place to speak out!  I, personally, felt supernaturally led to it at just the right time, as many a person has claimed on here. This is no trivial forum. It is one with a "higher" purpose and seems to be protected by God himself. So, if you have come here, it is no accident or coincidence.

The twisted truth of biblical bitterness to accuse and label the spiritual condition of believing whistle blowers of GCx is rampant among its leaders and falsely taught followers. This false teaching of naming children of God voicing abusive injustices and destructive practices (such as oppression or ungodly submission) in churches or christian organizations as "bitter" or a "bitter root" is actually a TWIST on the truth. It is an act of turning the tables to place guilt on the victim instead of the accused. It is one of the telltale signs of spiritual abuse. It is an ABUSE of authority in attempt to spoil the reputation of the victim so that the authority is not held responsible. The verse often quoted in this labeling is Hebrews 12:15:

"Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look [after one another], to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God’s grace (His unmerited favor and spiritual blessing), in order that no root of resentment (rancor, bitterness, or hatred) shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it—."   [AMP]

It's symptom is in the verse before: "Make every effort to live in peace with all men...". It seems the 'Bitter root' scripture is referring to results in stirring up undeserved trouble with others. It seems it is conceived from a lack of living in the GRACE of God.

What's really telling in this truth is that believers can stir up trouble and defile other believers by it. In GCx it seems quite possible from his roughly documented "spiritiual" history in being passed over for leadership in another church, the virtual founder, James D. McCotter's own bitterness grew to actually foolishly accuse every generation of Christian leaders AFTER the first century till McCotter began his ministry, of being misled and unscriptural in following the New Testament as a model for churches (or christian groups). That McCotter had superior revelation on how to follow God with more devotion and accuracy. This is EXACTLY the same accusation the false teachers IN THE NEW TESTAMENT had against the Apostle Paul. Those NT false teachers created animosity and shunning arrogance toward Paul in the precious body of Christ.

Ironically, there WAS a bitter root in GCx. However, it was not with those who would no longer submit to its idolatrous teachings; but from McCotter, himself! His self-righteous passion seemed to arise out of anger and jealousy. He even accused the old masters who painted images of the Apostles of being inspired by the devil, because they were depicted with gray hair and in old age. From a limited peek into his former rejection as a leader in his old church, one of the reasons for his rejection seemed to be his youth. (By the way McCotter was not elected, nor appointed as a christian leader, he was SELF-PROCLAIMED).

The well that shepherds are supposed to draw from to give to their flock is to be pure so that it's sheep will be healthy and strong. Our well in GCx had long been tainted and the waters bitterly poisoned by McCotter so that ultimately many, thousands of sheep (including future leaders) would become weak and sick in their faith. Some even "dead" as to their faith.

So don't believe the LIE [from twisted truth] that you who have doubts and find fault with GCx are bitter. The truth is you have stopped drinking from the bitterly polluted well !!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 08:53:45 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2018, 08:13:37 am »

And you wonder why we come here and defend the truths that get manipulated, distorted and exaggerated. Most, when they come to a brick wall don’t keep running their head into it, and blame everyone who trys to show them how to walk around it for their pain.
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2018, 09:24:10 am »

This is bitterness:
Bitterness starts out small. An offense burrows its way into our hearts. We replay it in our minds creating deep ruts that will be hard to build back up.
We retell our story to any available listener, including each solid detail. We enlist support, pushing us further into our resentment.

We decipher the offense as full of spite. We look for other reasons, both real and imagined, to dislike our villain. With each new piece of information, we form another layer of bitterness.

This my friends is your forum. You say you aren't bitter people but the definition of bitterness "anger and disappointment at being treated unfairly" is all over your threads....for decades.

On a side note....what does a guy do to get kicked out of here like the other GCC'ers you don't like? I'm marked for deletion but I keep existing....

I believe what you seeing is a remove x on a post you have entered that you can use to delete a thread you have entered. I wondered about that also, but pushed it once and I deleted my own post. I have seen a few that get ex communicated by the site manager, which is different
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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2018, 09:44:06 am »

What in the world are you even talking about?    Grin Grin Grin. This is hilarious to me!

No one is doing any of that! 


Recently I was talking to six of my BFFs in two separate groups, my book club, and a special needs Mom text thread I’ve kept active for three years.  I’ve known these women for 6 years and 11 years respectively.  I’d never mentioned my culty experience to them, at least not in any memorable way because when I said the #churchtoo movement had hit an online board I’d been a part of, they were all surprised that I’d never mentioned it.

In my Sunday School class, same deal.  I don’t go around talking about this.  It’s actually kind of embarrassing to me that I got sucked in to a bizarre group.  


You guys really need some new lingo.  Calling people bitter and slanderous is uncreative and sounds like cult-speak and group think.  


Happy Friday!  I hope you get things sorted out and don’t feel you have to attack people non-stop this weekend.  Maybe get out in nature and let some tension and judgment go.  It works wonders.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 10:09:41 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2018, 10:51:20 am »

Janet, I agree that the constant use of calling people bitter, unforgiving, angry, wanting to see someone punished, etc. is a reason victims don't speak up, which also perpetuates the phenomenon of church members not believing allegations against their pastor. When the truth is silenced, it makes it harder to come out and harder to believe when it does. Ironically, this tactic (calling critics bitter, etc) is pretty much in every book ever written about spiritual abuse and cults, as to Agatha's point.  Thanks for your light heartedness, Agatha  Cool

There was a section of the article entitled "He Who Controls the Pulpit, Controls the Direction of the Discussion" and I think that is very true with the theme of bitterness.  When a church teaches their own definition of conflict, unity, and persecution, they are controlling where the discussion goes.  Of course this can be done in a way that protects against abuse, but other ways it promotes abuse.  Their members will either be influenced to shut down conversation by saying "you're bitter!" or they will seek to understand, ask questions, be willing to listen with an open mind, etc.

Listening is very difficult and something most of us aren't very good at.  It was life-changing when I joined a Facebook group centered on racial reconciliation.  New members are asked to only read/listen for the first 3 months.  What?!?  That is so counter-cultural but it taught me to set aside myself to truly hear and accept what other people had to say.  I wasn't reading to formulate a response, come up with a counter point or defense, or challenge it in any way.  Those 3 months changed my perception of reality and changed my life.  It doesn't mean I agree with everything I read.  Just means that I understand there is value in individual stories, and when many stories point in a similar direction, I am negligent to my calling as a Christian if I don't take that seriously.  Listening with an open mind is revolutionary, I think. 

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2018, 11:12:44 am »

Is this real, Well, I don’t see anyone else doing that either.  And a full 1/15 of the posts here are from me. 


That “don’t feel so guilty” stuff is an attempt to directly manipulate my emotions, while the “everyone else not you though” stuff is an attempt to get me to want your approval.  Everyone else here is bad but not you.   Full cult-like behavior.  I see right through it.  I do t need your approval or anyone else’s.  I’m confident in the freedom I have to discuss my own life as I choose.  And others here are as well.  You are not in the right to tell us what we have lived or seen is not true.  And yet that is what you do.  Your story is your story.  Out story is not your story.  It is  narcissistic to think that others are not allowed to tell their stories because you don’t like it.  People are allowed to talk.  If they want to talk about the other side of their excommunication or life story, , that is their right to do so. 

Rebel, in that article, what strikes me as 100% true is the concept that people have trouble conceptualizing that someone they know and love may have other facets of their personality.  Anyone who has raised children or who has been in a family for long should be able to see that people do sin sometimes and hide things.  The idea that someone could never have done something because I didn’t see it happen is again and again seen and  has again and again come crashing down.

Further it is unloving to allow someone to remain in their sin, even if they have changed.  Even if they don’t do that thing anymore— and this goes for a lot of stuff, not just abuse.  Enabling is unloving. 

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« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2018, 12:26:20 pm »

Thank you, Dr. Phil for your astute psychological analysis.
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« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2018, 03:41:46 pm »

Thank you, Dr. Phil for your astute psychological analysis.

Some could say the same to you Agatha. Anyone of hundreds, maybe even thousands who didn’t experince your issues, that you and others put in your little convenient box that fit your agenda, Dr. Phil.

How many times have the small handful of regulars spun this circle, over over again. I actually felt some compassion for you and what you state happened to you. I still feel compassion, but not for what you state you suffered from ECC, but from the obvious darkness the handful of regulars here are stuck in. I know I get to leave this form of negativity, and darkness that seems to stimulate some here. I have no other thought that seems to justify being here spewing over and over and over again, the same talking points that make no sense to the vast majority who attend or attended ECC. I just have to ask, WHY?  After so many years you would realize, hmm, no one listens? It’s because what you claim, 99.9% have NOT experienced.  Trust me, there is life beyond this form. You say you have these other activities, but I know this negativism you saturate yourself with on this form effects every part of it. There is no human way it doesn’t. Even people who work with others, to help them deal with this type of negativism struggle, and need help themselves.

Why do many disbelieve Suzanne and victim A through Z? Simple, look at MD life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories, that they have shared, and scores of others who are close to them, that have whitnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded. You look at other cases with this me too going on. Family, friends, and people who work with them don’t stand behind them.  Doesn’t take a rocket scientist OR Dr Phil to figure that out.
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araignee19
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« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2018, 04:56:06 pm »

Guess what I'm gonna say to that... "ad hominem."   Cheesy
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Badger
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« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2018, 05:15:37 pm »

Why do many disbelieve Suzanne and victim A through Z? Simple, look at MD life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories, that they have shared, and scores of others who are close to them, that have whitnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded. You look at other cases with this me too going on. Family, friends, and people who work with them don’t stand behind them.  Doesn’t take a rocket scientist OR Dr Phil to figure that out.

Yes, let's look at another case:  Why do so many disbelieve victims A through Z?  Simple, look at Bill Cosby's life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories -his wife Camille said, "The man I met, and fell in love with, and whom I continue to love, is the man you all knew through his work... He is a kind man and a wonderful husband, father and friend." 

Before her death, his late daughter Ensa Cosby issued a statement, “I strongly believe my father is innocent of the crimes alleged against him and I believe that racism has played a big role in all aspects of this scandal... he has been publicly lynched in the media.”

His youngest daughter, Evin Cosby, also noted the “public persecution” of her father as well as “the cruelty of the media and those who speak out branding my father a ‘rapist’ without ever knowing the truth.”

Loving memories, that they have shared and scores of others who worked with him, interviewed him, and acted with him - people that witnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded.


All of that to say, Greentruth, it doesn't whether you have a favorable opinion of Mark.  It doesn't matter if the accused has an army of 1000's of people supporting their character.  Aggressors can even have seemingly normal healthy family lives and children.  Your above quote is based on opinion and speculation.  Your and other people's opinions of Mark Darling do not make him innocent nor do they prove he has integrity.
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« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2018, 06:42:33 pm »

"Your and other people's opinions of Mark Darling do not make him innocent nor do they prove he has integrity."

That is true Badger, however, when you are left with accusations with no proof it is prudent to take each person's character into account. Their lives leave clues.
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« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2018, 07:07:51 pm »

Why do many disbelieve Suzanne and victim A through Z? Simple, look at MD life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories, that they have shared, and scores of others who are close to them, that have whitnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded. You look at other cases with this me too going on. Family, friends, and people who work with them don’t stand behind them.  Doesn’t take a rocket scientist OR Dr Phil to figure that out.

Yes, let's look at another case:  Why do so many disbelieve victims A through Z?  Simple, look at Bill Cosby's life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories -his wife Camille said, "The man I met, and fell in love with, and whom I continue to love, is the man you all knew through his work... He is a kind man and a wonderful husband, father and friend."  

Before her death, his late daughter Ensa Cosby issued a statement, “I strongly believe my father is innocent of the crimes alleged against him and I believe that racism has played a big role in all aspects of this scandal... he has been publicly lynched in the media.”

His youngest daughter, Evin Cosby, also noted the “public persecution” of her father as well as “the cruelty of the media and those who speak out branding my father a ‘rapist’ without ever knowing the truth.”

Loving memories, that they have shared and scores of others who worked with him, interviewed him, and acted with him - people that witnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded.


All of that to say, Greentruth, it doesn't whether you have a favorable opinion of Mark.  It doesn't matter if the accused has an army of 1000's of people supporting their character.  Aggressors can even have seemingly normal healthy family lives and children.  Your above quote is based on opinion and speculation.  Your and other people's opinions of Mark Darling do not make him innocent nor do they prove he has integrity.

Are you comparing my father to a man who likes to have sex with lifeless women? Cosby's been doing that since his stand up days in the 70s AND he and his wife have been in an open relationship their ENTIRE marriage. When your moral compass is broken like that, saying you "respect" your husband is meaningless. Cosby's been an abuser and deviant his entire career - please do not conflate my father with Bill Cosby.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 07:18:47 pm by jeromydaviddarling » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2018, 07:14:30 pm »

Badger, you win! I knew one of the fabulous form would try and use Bill C in this. There where so many reports of his character before he was ever charged with anything. You don’t hide as many times he brought women to hotels. People who worked with him, taxi drivers,hotel clerks, restaurant workers.  Never heard about his daughters statement, but fact is, it was by no means anything close to what I truthfully shared. Your statement is a good show of the extent you and your form distort.
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« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2018, 08:49:20 pm »

Why do many disbelieve Suzanne and victim A through Z? Simple, look at MD life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories, that they have shared, and scores of others who are close to them, that have whitnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded. You look at other cases with this me too going on. Family, friends, and people who work with them don’t stand behind them.  Doesn’t take a rocket scientist OR Dr Phil to figure that out.

Yes, let's look at another case:  Why do so many disbelieve victims A through Z?  Simple, look at Bill Cosby's life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories -his wife Camille said, "The man I met, and fell in love with, and whom I continue to love, is the man you all knew through his work... He is a kind man and a wonderful husband, father and friend." 

Before her death, his late daughter Ensa Cosby issued a statement, “I strongly believe my father is innocent of the crimes alleged against him and I believe that racism has played a big role in all aspects of this scandal... he has been publicly lynched in the media.”

His youngest daughter, Evin Cosby, also noted the “public persecution” of her father as well as “the cruelty of the media and those who speak out branding my father a ‘rapist’ without ever knowing the truth.”

Loving memories, that they have shared and scores of others who worked with him, interviewed him, and acted with him - people that witnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded.


All of that to say, Greentruth, it doesn't whether you have a favorable opinion of Mark.  It doesn't matter if the accused has an army of 1000's of people supporting their character.  Aggressors can even have seemingly normal healthy family lives and children.  Your above quote is based on opinion and speculation.  Your and other people's opinions of Mark Darling do not make him innocent nor do they prove he has integrity.

Possibly one of the most telling statements to date– This logic could be applied to anyone, anywhere, at any time, including yourself. It's not a very strong argument at all which is the reason our country doesn't assume guilt first, until proven innocence. What's telling about you, Badger, is your religiosity towards finding a fault towards my dad, who you don't know at all. So, according to your logic, knowing someone doesn't count for anything with regards to determining the truth in a matter like this just because there is always some impossible percentage chance that they might be a secret and cunning con artist who has kept up an act for decades, outsmarting everyone in their life including close friends and family just so they can occasionally get some cheap thrills (really??)? So why do you believe Suzanne? Because you know her? It would seem your perspective is self-defeating. It's not just that we know my dad– we have seen the fruit of his life consistently and what he is being accused of is utterly ridiculous considering all that we know about him, what we've seen from him, and how serious he has been about transparency and accountability...but you'd rather us believe the conspiracy theory...
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« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2018, 03:44:17 pm »

I see Badger's point as being related to this part of the article:


"Over reliance on Personal Experience: Abusers do not abuse everyone. They could not possibly do so. In a previous article, I laid out the blueprint for how pastoral abusers choose their victims. Only a small number of people are actually victimized by even the worst sociopathic offenders. That means the vast majority of people in a church have never known the pastor/principal/worship leader to abuse them.

Most abusers are Narcissistic and Machiavellian in personality. This means they can be tremendously charming to all people, even their victims. They appear as disarming, warm, confident, nurturing, and intelligent. It is virtually impossible for the vast majority who have never been hurt by the pastor to initially believe the story that the victim tells. It is simple: “Pastor X never treated me that way. I can’t believe what this victim is saying. The so-called victim must be making this up.”"



Why do many disbelieve Suzanne and victim A through Z? Simple, look at MD life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories, that they have shared, and scores of others who are close to them, that have whitnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded. You look at other cases with this me too going on. Family, friends, and people who work with them don’t stand behind them.  Doesn’t take a rocket scientist OR Dr Phil to figure that out.

Yes, let's look at another case:  Why do so many disbelieve victims A through Z?  Simple, look at Bill Cosby's life, and his loving family who surround him in loving memories -his wife Camille said, "The man I met, and fell in love with, and whom I continue to love, is the man you all knew through his work... He is a kind man and a wonderful husband, father and friend." 

Before her death, his late daughter Ensa Cosby issued a statement, “I strongly believe my father is innocent of the crimes alleged against him and I believe that racism has played a big role in all aspects of this scandal... he has been publicly lynched in the media.”

His youngest daughter, Evin Cosby, also noted the “public persecution” of her father as well as “the cruelty of the media and those who speak out branding my father a ‘rapist’ without ever knowing the truth.”

Loving memories, that they have shared and scores of others who worked with him, interviewed him, and acted with him - people that witnessed what would make it impossible for the accusations to be founded.


All of that to say, Greentruth, it doesn't whether you have a favorable opinion of Mark.  It doesn't matter if the accused has an army of 1000's of people supporting their character.  Aggressors can even have seemingly normal healthy family lives and children.  Your above quote is based on opinion and speculation.  Your and other people's opinions of Mark Darling do not make him innocent nor do they prove he has integrity.
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