Attachment issues

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[bertrandbaggersly]

Sam Lopez previously wrote:

I was also thinking that many of us came into GC because we were looking either for “mother” or “father” or both. This relates to attachment issues. We felt loved by a community and spiritual parents. Some of us were looking for mentors, etc. At some point these parents failed us. In my own journey, I have had to process that my traumas with GC relate deeply to issues of parentification, infantilization, masculinity issues, with some women the masculinization of their womanhood, etc. Many of us were carrying our umbilical chords in younger years and looking for somewherer to plug them. We had incomplete development before or even after. I’m not saying this applies to all, but my experience has been that it does apply to most. Especially in the campus ministries.

For total healing with GC issues I have had to go into my own attachment deficits and disappointments and vacuums. GC was simply an entity that became a surrogate mother/father.

I joined GCM shortly after moving to a new city. I wanted an evangelical church where I could immediately get involved and make a difference. As I said before, I believe my pride played a part here as well. Anyway, that was where it started, not as a need for love and parental attachment.

But I do think Sam is onto something. As leaders took me under their wings and I submitted under their “umbrellas of authority”, I felt a sense of security and belonging that meant a lot to me at the time. I did feel like a child around certain leaders. I was supposed to submit to their loving authority after all — much like children submit (in theory!) to their parents.

It reminds me of the story of “The Grand Inquisitor” which Dostoevsky tells within The Brothers Karamazov. In the story, Jesus comes back to Spain during the middle ages and meets a wizened archbishop or cardinal who runs the Inquisition. The Grand Inquisitor immediately recognizes Christ and has him imprisoned. Before executing him, he lectures a silent Christ about how he expected too much of people, that he should have never offered humanity freedom. Most people can’t bear the weight of freedom and its responsibilities and risks. Realizing this, the Church took the burden of freedom on itself and enslaved humanity with miracles, mystery, and authority for its own good, in order to give humanity happiness.

I don’t know how to describe this, but after leaving GCM I felt like a free and whole man again.

[bertrandbaggersly]

Clarification — I agree with Sam that some people become enmeshed with GCM due to a need for childlike security and acceptance. The ultimate feeling of childlike security comes from relinquishing control over your own life. Shepherding movements seem ideally suited to attract this kind of person. There are doubtless other motivations involved in each case as well.

How that relates to parental attachment during childhood, traumas, hypnosis, cognitive therapy, etc. I have no idea and offer no opinion or agreement.

[Samuel Lopez De Victoria]

I was doing some more meditating and thinking. I later had a discussion with my wonderful wife about this and we both agreed for the umpthteen time concerning the dynamic that joining a sick/dysfunctional church or movement means that the person joining is also sick/dysfunctional. Our dysfunctions attract corresponding dysfunctions. NOt only is GC sick/dysfunctional but I am guilty of being sufficiently dysfunctional to the point I attract such complementary sickness/dysfunction.



In reality, I am just as responsible as GC for what has happened in my choosing on a conscious and subconscious level of a dysfunctionally compatible counterpart. That makes two sick/dysfunctional entities that need each other to survive on that level. It is not 100% GC as it is not 100% all you. It takes two to tango. Both are guilty. That’s hard to swallow but it is consistently the truth in the literature and in real-time life.



Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like blame the victim to me.

Ouch!

[bertrandbaggersly]

But what if GC hides its dysfunctions until all you’re a “core member?” By that time you have a lot invested in terms of friendships, etc., making it difficult to leave. Hindsight is always 20/20, but in the beginning I didn’t see what I was getting into.

By analogy, the woman who marries a man she knows to be an alcoholic is clearly dysfunctional herself. In contrast, a woman who marries a man who is, let’s say, secretly addicted to pornography, may not be dysfunctional and can properly claim victim status. I argue that most people in GC fall into that category.

[Anonymous]

I was doing some more meditating and thinking. I later had a discussion with my wonderful wife about this and we both agreed for the umpthteen time concerning the dynamic that joining a sick/dysfunctional church or movement means that the person joining is also sick/dysfunctional.

Sam, your posts have taken a turn for the worst in the last day or so. You alright there, buddy?

The organization encourages putting on a different face to newcomers and new members than it does to old members. Also, the problems in the movement are not openly discussed, in most cases the most active members know little of the movement’s past problems with abuse. There’s very little warning to new members. You basically show up, people treat you nicer than any church you’ve ever met before in your life, and before long you’re emotionally attached. It’s then that ideas such as your personal “spiritual leaders” and GCM’s discipleship “vision” are introduced. The next thing you know you find that if you aren’t doing what the person placed above you deems best, that love shown you in the beginning is withheld to some degree. This encourages conformity, discourages a personal relationship with God, and disregards the priesthood of the believer. They are manipulating people’s emotional needs, and sincerely seem to believe that doing so is God’s will. That is a dangerous mind set. GCM appears healthy on the outside thus it lures many healthy Christians in. Probably some fruitcakes taken in along the way, sure, but there’s no reason to believe that’s the majority.

I am quite stunned that you would generalize away the hurts of so many people who had no idea what they were getting themselves into it in the beginning. Remember, Satan charades as an Angel of Light (2 Corinthians 11:14). Evil in the world is not always an obvious thing.

[Samuel Lopez De Victoria]

Anonymous said…

Sounds like blame the victim to me.

Ouch!

___________________



Anonymous,



Nope… it is placing the blame on both sides.



Example, the lies we have believed set us up to attract persons into our lives that have congruency with those areas. It can be a girlfriend, a spouse, a pastor, a church, or a Christian movement. Both entities subscribe to the same lie(s) and it is a common point besides good things that are also there. It is never one sided. There are family secrets we all carry on the subconscious level. These set us up to attract individuals or groups that also believe similarly.



What happens in the case with GC is that when you discover an incongruency in your life with the behavior/beliefs of GC then either they have to change, both have to change, or they get rid of you, or leave. It is very similar to standard family systems and group theory. Your inconguency begins to destabilize the “family” system. The family is temporarily in a chaotic or uncomfortable state. It must get resolved because everyone is experiencing cognitive and emotional dissonance. Hence one of the actions I already described. The ideal is that everyone stays and resolves the issues in a healthy fashion. Unfortunately, GC has not had the maturity among many of its elders/pastors and National Leaders to be effective in this process.



I have spoken to National Leadership about this inability to do this. They had no idea what I was talking about. Eventually, it was so uncomfortable with me and them that they let me go and did not try to keep me in the movement. They were trying to find that place again of no tension internally. Having me in the movement required them to stay in this dissonance and they had to either embrace me or reject me. They did the latter. I was out.



Did I believe lies and have dysfunctions that attracted GC? You better believe it.



Anonymous, if you study family systems and especially with families of overt dysfunctions such as families with one parent that is an alcoholic or addict, you will see clearly what I am saying. Everyone around the addict/alcoholic dances a trance-dance almost hypnotically. Each have their roles in maintaining the sickness. So also the same with GC and members. All have fault.



If you only blame GC you are not taking responsibility for that part in you that is/was dysfunctional/sick that made you choose that dysfuntional/sick group.



Please don’t paint me that I am on GC’s side or anti-Victim. I am not on any side. I am on the side of truth, honesty, total healing, and being objective. I find sometimes that wounded folks, in their ventilation, might go beyond some integrous line of disbalance and then start to become irrational or dishonest throwing out all the water and the whole baby with it. This is where I believe Wellspring has failed. They exhibit, to me, anger that is still unresolved, and are still on the warpath, evidenced by the negative aura of their writings and web site. I love Paul Martin and others with him. I believe he is trying to do God’s will the best he can. I just think his/their anger clouds his/their ability to be a total healer. I say this respectfully. He is my brother.



I know some on this site, feel uncomfortable with me. The same is true like family systems. Why are we uncomfortable? I say look into it. Could it be that I bless the one who wounded and also the wounded? In in the world of some of you, that is a dichotomy. I know that makes you very uncomfortable. I know. I’ve been there and have process this very same issue. It involves wounds that have the presence of an ego that is waiting for the opportunity to get attention and juice via revenge or other similar. Trust me, I seriously considered unloading a battery of lawyers on GC. For me that would have been the EGO thing.



Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D.

[Samuel Lopez De Victoria]

Anonymous said,



I am quite stunned that you would generalize away the hurts of so many people who had no idea what they were getting themselves into it in the beginning. Remember, Satan charades as an Angel of Light (2 Corinthians 11:14). Evil in the world is not always an obvious thing.

_____________________________



Anonymous,



If my post has taken a turn “downward” is because I am trying to show that our own dysfunctions/blindspots/sickness attract complementary persons into our lives. That is a fact that most well trained psychotherapists/psychologist/psychiatrists attest consistently.



I do not discount error or manipulation on the part of leaders. If a person is healthy, they don’t stay long. The fact that they stay long shows they truly are not healthy. That is what I am saying. You were healthy enough to leave. You may have been able to leave sooner if you were even more healthier, is what I surmise, not knowing how long you totally stayed in the movement. I am saying that neither you or I are totally innocent of our part in attracting GC into our life. The process will continue for the rest of your life whether it is a spouse, girlfriend, friends, etc. You and I are not islands. One good secular author that was once a priest is John Bradshaw. He is a Family therapist and he has a book called “Family Secrets” and how they damn folks. That’s a good starter. Any of the co-dependency and alcoholic/addict literature can be very enlightening. If you know folks who have been clean for many years and are part of AA or NA you can bounce these thoughts to them. They would immediately tell you that GC and us were co-dependent on each other and that GC was like a drug to us that we needed. The issue now, is try to stay from acquiring new Christian “addictions” with the corresponding sick behaviors.



I think it would do well for some on this forum to talk to AA/NA people or visit a Codependent-Anonymous group a few times and bounce your GC experience. It will be one of you most healing experiences plus you may find a community of folks that will accept your woundedness. That is just one option. Of course, the other option is to find a psychotherapist as good as I am !



Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Bertrand feels that his ego made him more susceptible to GCM. I think my idealism made me more susceptible.

I do not think ego and idealism are in themselves “dysfunctions.” I really don’t. I think these are normal personality traits that many, many “normal” people share.

Sam, I see your point about codependency; I really do. I think it can apply and probably does in many cases. BUT…

I think there is a middle ground between contributer/co-dependent member and victim.

I agree that the LONGER you are in GCM the closer you can get to being co-dependent. But if you don’t know that they do/say/have done/believe/practice bad things, then how can you be contributing to it?

That is sort of like saying the entire Republican party is to blame for Foley’s errors. Only the people who know and do nothing are to blame. In fact, if I left GCM KNOWING what I do about them, and did nothing… I think that would be a little co-dependent. I think that would be not keeping them accountable for what they are willy-nilly doing to people.

I think that what we are doing here is the “intervention” for GCM. I want them to stop for a minute and recognize that these hurt people aren’t going to walk away with their tails between their legs. I don’t think that’s ego talking. I think it is calling it like I see it, like we all see it. I also think that one of my spiritual gifts is exhortation… so that is probably why I feel driven. I am also an ENFP (the journalist) so I have an incredible drive to “get the word out.”

Some of the mistakes I made were not following little feelings I had. Once in a while I would feel very uncomfortable with how personal small groups might get, or how “in my life” people might be. I brushed it off as individual character traits not as an institutional mindset or practice. I honestly believe the “saved into” camp is quite different than the “saved already” camp. If GCM is all you know in your Christian life, than you are going to be a lot more susceptible. You will chalk everything that they do into “God’s will for your life.” If you have been around the block, so to speak, then you will have other churches and groups to compare with. This is the camp I fall into. For us, it was just a matter of time for us to discover the errors and then leave.

BUT I do think that some of the pastors who have been with the movement for years have loads of co-dependent history. One pastor used to lament how inadequate he felt at pastor’s conferences. Well, who wouldn’t with the extreme expectations that GCM places on it’s adherents? He was saved into the movement and felt bound by the gratitude for his salvation. I truly believe that there are many, many people who stay because of this gratitude for their salvation.

That is why GCM can be sooooo bad. They get you saved. You feel eternally grateful, and you will do just about anything because of it. You have know idea that this is not the normal Christian life. So how do we help people like this fight their codependency? We talk about it. We get it out in the open… like we are trying to do here.

[Samuel Lopez De Victoria]

Agatha L’Orange said…



I do not think ego and idealism are in themselves “dysfunctions.” I really don’t. I think these are normal personality traits that many, many “normal” people share.

_____________________________



Agatha,



I pretty much agree with your post. When I refer to ego, I am not referring to the concept of “healthy ego strength” but rather that part of us that wants to be God. That part that wants to operate independently from God.



Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D.

[Anonymous]

When a large group of people who seem to genuinely care about you, use bible verses and confidently back up why they believe what they do with them, even if it’s incorrect or seems biblically wrong, it’s very hard not to eventually settle on the conclusion that it is you who is in the wrong. Especially regarding matters that at first seem like minor details in the Christian walk, such as dating and counsel. I let them hurt me because they were using my pre-existing belief in the bible against me. This is why it is called spiritual abuse, and I believe it is a fitting term.

[Genevieve]

I think Agatha brings up a good issue about being saved into it vs. those of us who saw other churches. This also brings up an interesting idea about differences between members who were born into it, saved into it, or joined thinking it was like any other Evangelical church.

For me, I grew up in an independent Bible church that also happened to believe it was the best church around. When I joined GCM in college, it was very hard for me to transfer allegiance, so to speak. I was always a little on the outside, which protected me from a lot of the major pressures but also kept me in a state of feeling inadequate because I could never “buy in” as much as they wanted to. I definitely felt the tension Sam talked about and finally decided to leave.

I noticed that other people who left the church were usually those who were Christians before joining.

So, even though the church I grew up in certainly had its own issues of pride, in some ways I feel like that protected me from being pulled into something at such a vulnerable time in my life.

[Genevieve]

About taking responsibility for staying in GCM, I think everyone here is right. I think, obviously, we didn’t know what we were getting into. For me, they were super nice and seemed to believe the Bible in the way I grew up. Plus, they were passionate and proud like the church I grew up in. I could feel superior and like I was going to the “best” church again.

It was probably a year or more before I started to get uncomfortable with some things: people as projects, dating, hierarchy of “cool” people.

I didn’t leave for several years after. I think like Bertrand mentioned, freedom is scary. I liked all the rules. It made me feel safe and like I was following God in the “right” and “best” way. I felt guilty a lot and like I wasn’t doing enough, but I was used to that from my old church.

Just being able to keep track of where I was, what I was doing right or wrong was comfortable and yes, very dysfunctional!

The good thing is that though I came in like a lamb, I left like a lion.

[Frail]

I do hate to say this but I think overall Sam is right.



“I was also thinking that many of us came into GC because we were looking either for “mother” or “father” or both.”



I think there are exceptions to the rule but I wasn’t one of them. GCM somewhat was the other half of my personal dysfunction or issues. I lived in a house full of GCM guys and almost all of them had issues with their dad’s. BIG issues. I myself fit into said camp at the time and was weired out by the fact that GCM seemed to attract a certain type of male. I wasn’t able to put it together at the time though. Also, the youth paster guy, seemed to be treated like a father figure by most of the guys.



Is this something that everyone can relate to?

[AgathaL'Orange]

Frail that is so interesting about father/son relationships. I suppose the argument could be made that one reason why we left was that this sort of relationship with a pastor made us uncomfortable. But other people seemed to love having the pastor relate as a father to them. I think my GCM church pushed the idea of a family a little to far to where, in my opinion, it is inappropriate. I do believe that my relationship with my parents while always positive has gotten even better since I left.

[Adam Hirschhorn]

I guess mine is not the typical GC experience in that I’d made peace with my parents long before becoming involved. Not that there wasn’t a bit of distance there, emotionally with my dad, and spatially with my mom. Now that both of them have passed and I am no longer involved with GC, it is hard not to feel some regret for how I chose to spend the time. There are no replacements for family. I miss them.

[MamaD]

I’m sorry, Adam. God bless you.

[Frail]

The same with me Agatha, I have a much better relationship with my parents now, especially my dad! I kind of came to the same conclusion as Sam with respect to dysfunctional relationships (sometimes) leading to involvement in GCM and therefore worked hard to fix family relationships (so my sis hopefully won’t end up suffering as much from family baggage as I did).



Ugh, all this talk is bringing up old memories… not sure I can keep doing this. When I got out of the GCM church I was really bad off. I had dropped out of school very depressed and thought I was crazy. I couldn’t justify why I saw things (sometimes specific events) one way when the whole church saw it another way. There was one big instance where I saw something happen and all the people there (leaders especially) claimed it never happened. The only logical conclusion I could come to was that I had lost my ability to tell fantasy from reality, that I was living in a ‘fake’ world because what I saw what really happened! (I did find somebody to back up my story later.)

[Adam Hirschhorn]

It never happened, or my favorite…. “I can’t say that’s the way it happened–I don’t remember”



Y’know I’ve heard it claimed that the more repressed memories you keep, the worse your memory is. Maybe I just saw that in a movie.



That awesome feeling you probably felt when someone backed up your story, that’s got to be kinda the same color of feeling I get hearing you say that. I don’t think it’s been touched upon here, that experience, reminds me of The Stepford Wives. That overwhelming feeling–that something is not right. So weird that I let so many incidences pass before I finally decided to stand by my own experiences and perceptions.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I too had a Stepford Wives feeling with my GCM church. It did seem that everyone had sublimated their own desires, goals, and lives to become the right kind of GCM follower. I believe that people have unhealthy attachments to the church.

It has been really refreshing to be free the past couple of years. And I am learning how to make my own goals in life and to really decide if I want to do something or if someone else wants me too. I can follow my own convictions now and actually use my freewill!