Becoming the Problem...signs?

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[theresearchpersona]

So, how many of you started getting suspicious of things, and then checking things out, bringing up concerns...and then became the problem? What treatment did you get? What responses...did people suddenly become unfriendly or no longer talk to you...is there some kind of procedure and guidelines that GC* has been teaching to "watch out" (which I wouldn't be suprised about: I'm aware of popular literature teaching on this which GC has probably consumed...if it didn't develope it all on its own or just get a refresher from the recent stuff). I do remember how leadership would tell people in the members class that "if you have a problem that you can't resolve even on the national level we won't hold it against you to leave" kind of "we [don't] love you get out" kind of "you can leave on your own accord" rhetoric (the most miserable of evil and underhanded dealings with people...reminds me of Warren's "by doing ___ you can determine what kind of Christians stay at 'YOUR' Church" kind of teaching; wolf).

What kind of things did you guys notice were symptomatic...let's collect; I think it is...and I bet it's trained and from training...and not something you'd even need to directly or explicitly do: you just have to teach the right things that would found the results of how your "leadership" would react to situation (a) and (b) and (c) and so on.

[wastedyearsthere]

I'm not sure what you are asking here but I will tell you my experience.  If I pointed out problems that definitely I was the one with the problem.  I finally left because I was tired of always being the problem.  It was never something the church/elders could change -- it was ALWAYS ME.  Then if you didn't go along with what the Elders said -- of course you weren't submissive and you were labelled rebellious.....

My Mom used to use this quote and I wish I had applied it to my life back then.  "There is no such thing as victims just volunteers"  I definitely volunteered to be abused for a long time at that church and I think it was because I thought I had good friends there and had low self esteem.

[Linda]

At first, when we mentioned things, we got hit with, "That message wasn't for you, don't worry, you were hit with friendly fire." (I think that came about when we questioned the pastor asking for commitment to the church for life and since they knew that we were spending 3 or 4 days a week doing church activities, they couldn't accuse us of lack of commitment. But, instead of addressing the issue which was "commitment to your church for life" they just told us about all sorts of people who weren't committed to church, and about the Josh Harris book on Dating the Church.) So, "friendly fire" was the first response.

Then, a few months later, it became, sort of, "We understand what you believe, we don't believe that way, so it would probably be best if you went to a church with similar theology. God bless you."

It wasn't till after we left that we were hit  with the "you are the problem" idea. We have received the Titus warnings. We are slanderous and divisive and we have that in writing.

The take I have on it is that they now just try to calmly tell people who have theological issues with the authoritarian nature of the place that they should move on, but say nothing.

Mark Darling did say to us, "You realize that if you go around telling people that you think we are wrong, we will have to defend ourselves." I think I have quoted him accurately. It was such a threatening thing to hear, especially coming from a pastor, that it stuck in my mind.

And, it did frighten me. I don't think he meant a physical threat, but it was an odd thing to say. I have the right to say what I believe about sound Biblical teaching and disagree with anyone who might say otherwise. He has the right to publicly and privately disagree with me. No need to threaten each other.

So, the sequence for us was.

1. Don't worry, it's friendly fire.
2. Please go, but don't talk, if you talk we will defend.
3. You are divisive and slanderous.
4. We won't associate with you (to be noted, not all pastors have taken this route)

[steelgirl]

At first, when we mentioned things, we got hit with, "That message wasn't for you, don't worry, you were hit with friendly fire." (I think that came about when we questioned the pastor asking for commitment to the church for life and since they knew that we were spending 3 or 4 days a week doing church activities, they couldn't accuse us of lack of commitment. But, instead of addressing the issue which was "commitment to your church for life" they just told us about all sorts of people who weren't committed to church, and about the Josh Harris book on Dating the Church.) So, "friendly fire" was the first response.

Then, a few months later, it became, sort of, "We understand what you believe, we don't believe that way, so it would probably be best if you went to a church with similar theology. God bless you."

It wasn't till after we left that we were hit  with the "you are the problem" idea. We have received the Titus warnings. We are slanderous and divisive and we have that in writing.

The take I have on it is that they now just try to calmly tell people who have theological issues with the authoritarian nature of the place that they should move on, but say nothing.

Mark Darling did say to us, "You realize that if you go around telling people that you think we are wrong, we will have to defend ourselves." I think I have quoted him accurately. It was such a threatening thing to hear, especially coming from a pastor, that it stuck in my mind.

And, it did frighten me. I don't think he meant a physical threat, but it was an odd thing to say. I have the right to say what I believe about sound Biblical teaching and disagree with anyone who might say otherwise. He has the right to publicly and privately disagree with me. No need to threaten each other.

So, the sequence for us was.

1. Don't worry, it's friendly fire.
2. Please go, but don't talk, if you talk we will defend.
3. You are divisive and slanderous.
4. We won't associate with you (to be noted, not all pastors have taken this route)

A few yrs ago when I was toying with leaving the GCM church which I did do.  I talked to one friend in Fla, who said there were die-hard gcmers.  I wonder if these diehard gcmers have been poisoned by this dangerous/borderline cult teaching of Mark Darling.

[lone gone]

The behaviors you observe are inherited. There has been a steady development of the language and actions you now see, but the seeds of their current behavior were sown years ago when there was no accountability and no records kept to prove anything.

There isn't one source, such as Mark Darling or Jim McCotter or Rick Warren,  and there isn't one solution except for each individual to arrive at their own decision to leave.

Anyone outside GMC who is keen to "cure" these people will be frustrated by their lack of progress. Your fruit will be sparse.

Read and heed Gamaliel's advice to the Sanhedrin in Acts.

[steelgirl]

The behaviors you observe are inherited. There has been a steady development of the language and actions you now see, but the seeds of their current behavior were sown years ago when there was no accountability and no records kept to prove anything.

There isn't one source, such as Mark Darling or Jim McCotter or Rick Warren,  and there isn't one solution except for each individual to arrive at their own decision to leave.

Anyone outside GMC who is keen to "cure" these people will be frustrated by their lack of progress. Your fruit will be sparse.

I was not in this church until after college.  I was going through tough times.  One person who I had respect for, keep in mind struggled to get through high school, wondered why I major in my liberal arts field.  People sure as frikkin hell did not get me here.

[theresearchpersona]

Read and heed Gamaliel's advice to the Sanhedrin in Acts.

I wouldn't do that...Jesus warned of more and more apostasy, not improvement; and Paul warned it had started, and right after his departure wolves would come in, so, it's not best to just "let be" but rather "let not be" (i.e. confront with scripture...and contend for the faith once delivered). If it were just any messed-up thing, oh well: when it's Christ's name on the line, and those who claim to be part of His bride...

then they get, for that claim, to be held responsible and even warred with in the event of disobedience to God, as Paul said that he intended to present those he taught as a pure bride; GC intends to be anxious about tomorrow and set-up its own vision...not Christ's. It says "the Great Commission is our directive/core vision/misison/is primary"; I say, however, that the real and true Church says otherwise, "Christ the person and deepening true (not experiential/mystical/"Spiritual disciplines"(contemplative/etc.) deception) knowledge of him along with obedience to all his commandments (not just the Great Commission...which is a consequence of, and not the purpose of, our relationship with God) and letting God wash us in the Word and in the blood of Jesus in order to present us to Him a pure bride...that's the Church's mission: its eyes are on Jesus...not the world. GC forgets that even God declares He does not, in all His sovereignty, intend to save all; GC says "join us and advance the kingdom, do something great", but God never said anything about advancing his "kindgom" on earth...neither does that word's modern meaning fit the original intent...rather I believe that when our eyes are put on God and when our attentions are on Jesus...we can't even help but bear witness; it's like if I were married...I would bet you even now, though I'm not married, but knowing that I don't wish to marry just to marry neither marry one whom I do not love...I'd bet you I'd love to brag on that person, however, kind of like with friends sometimes where you excitedly, imbecilely, go "hey this is my buddy"..."this is my buddy"... it would be "this is my wife!!"... and so the same sort-of goes with Jesus: "this is my first LOVE".

For that reason, however, we can't just let anyone with a claim to Christ be taken so captive...or cease (even if we lose all their affection and they hate our guts) to subject GC's teachings to the word and work to un-captivate them from the GC "vision". They're vision-casters teaching business principles; the very rudiments of the world Paul warned not to be taken captive by; they get youth and say "be more visionary" when God says "He that hath a dream, let him tell his dream; he that hath my word, let him preach my word faithfully. WHAT IS THE CHAFF TO THE WHEAT". Paul even says to live quiet and orderly lives and work with our own hands...GCers want greatness, they look-up to those people who people write biographies about and "want to be like them"...to themselves be meaningful and great. Personally of many of those people I see the biographies recommended and want to puke...so you want to emulate a mystic-guy who claimed Christ and led people astray, hmmm? Then there are some that are admirable...yet strangely there are times where I wonder if those men would have liked to be so promoted rather than Christ.

It's easy to capture youths' imaginations and commitment when you promise them greatness "if you...". It's much harder to keep it when you promise them that they should strive to be the least, unheard of, and hope to be forgotten among all that Christ's glory shines through them all the more. It's a bit like someone on here once commented that her pastor had everyone lift-up their bibles in front of their faces so they couldn't see them to make a point about what he actually is in the Church (nothing) and said "that's the point".

I see that same thing in the relationships in GC where soooo many seem to be able to marry and stay together with their common commitment to GC's "vision"; but it doesn't seem they're necessarily together really in want of one another...it's troubling how people who like each other end-up separated (with leadership doing its damnest to keep them even more apart) instead of in a relationship; I don't know if that happens a lot...but it's not uncommon to hear the "we were slit through [dividing] our small group and trusted God to bring us together"...what man should want to marry a woman after years of being split-up and then hardly conversing/relating? That's stupidity!

I do understand some of the "you shouldn't develop relationships and do anything you wouldn't (shouldn't) do with that girl/guy if they were married to someone else" kind of teaching; it's actually biblical; I even notice one of the great sore spots with men is their wife wanting to tell them about this great time they had with [some guy she was dating before] and how often I see it look like the guy has just gotten stabbed is heartbreaking...I understand those kinds of things; however GC always brings it to the final points of "so you don't have more commitment to a person than the group", and the whole "we want to control who's influencing who so people don't get talking" kind of dynamic; it's sick: they just want to control people. Err;

[unsubscribed]

theresearchpersona,
I appreciate your thoughts and agree we must always stand for Christ and his Church. It is heartbreaking to see GC* leaders continue to dishonor Christ by the manipulative tactics they have used for decades and continue to use.

It is good to keep these issues on the forefront. by people sharing their stories and struggles, it is helpful to each other; and GC* does keep their finger on the pulse of this forum. I feel  by being truthful and exposing the hurt they do to people that the top leadership knows, and we know they know, these are not isolated problems. Instead of dealing with these abusive pastors they claim autonomy, which is a cop out.  A lot of these guys are buddies and don't have the guts to call their friends on the carpet and tell them to stop.  

 I know that several people on this forum, including us, and I know of one other couple in my old church, have gone to the top of the GC* upper eschelon to pursue Godly resolution to serious problems, only to find that the patterns of abusive behavior come directly from the top.  I believe when they feel threatened or challenged they use these manipulative tactics because they know they work and produce results; unfortunately not God honoring ones. And in turn many Godly men and women  have been driven away. many of them scarred for life.  That is a lot to answer for when God asks to be given an account in the end.

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[Linda]

I just remembered another phrase that kept coming up when we would try to point out bad theology. We heard it over and over.

It was, "You do realize, don't you, that there is no such thing as a perfect church?"

Talk about a red herring. You mention some glaring theological problem and rather than discuss the merits of whether or not your point is theologically accurate, they change the subject to whether or not a perfect church exists.

Shouldn't a pastor be glad when the Holy Spirit uses the gifts of Christians to help keep doctrine pure?

[theresearchpersona]

I think the original leaven and poor foundation of GC eliminates that possibility...too much rebellion in regards to God's own commands concerning HIS church...His bride: as I and others have pointed out...it's HIS not these men's, and so every single person who claims they're simply "obeying God by obeying my leaders" and every leader who teaches that everyone is to obey them in these matters etc. for "unity" (if that's what they call unified rebellion) will give an account without excuse...isn't it also Jesus who told those who work lawlessness He'll tell "I NEVER KNEW YOU"?

These men talk about "submitted lives"...but don't have any themselves...and that is a very troubling thing. I wish them only the best...but can't just sit and do nothing...so I'm preparing in the word at the moment and trying to do well with other responsibilities.

What's also sickening is that they've taken these sheep captive and they're robbing them blind; it's no suprise GC is partnered with YWAM (see Puff's newest Moribund post): YWAM has many of the same abuses and even awefully bad heretical stuff in its veins nowadays...authoritarian abuses based on reconstructionist influence-the-culture/save-our-nation/build-God's-Kingdom rhetoric/teaching "on earth" kind of theology just like GC's too.

It's breaking my heart too...I think someone or two is probably reading these forums and may very possibly has figured out who I am and thinks I'm a liar in all this...and I just thought it was neat I wasn't the only one noticing and all this: and hoped to get advice how to help my siblings in Jesus.

Anyone else with examples they can discern regarding the manipulation?

[steelgirl]

I think the original leaven and poor foundation of GC eliminates that possibility...too much rebellion in regards to God's own commands concerning HIS church...His bride: as I and others have pointed out...it's HIS not these men's, and so every single person who claims they're simply "obeying God by obeying my leaders" and every leader who teaches that everyone is to obey them in these matters etc. for "unity" (if that's what they call unified rebellion) will give an account without excuse...isn't it also Jesus who told those who work lawlessness He'll tell "I NEVER KNEW YOU"?

These men talk about "submitted lives"...but don't have any themselves...and that is a very troubling thing. I wish them only the best...but can't just sit and do nothing...so I'm preparing in the word at the moment and trying to do well with other responsibilities.

What's also sickening is that they've taken these sheep captive and they're robbing them blind; it's no suprise GC is partnered with YWAM (see Puff's newest Moribund post): YWAM has many of the same abuses and even awefully bad heretical stuff in its veins nowadays...authoritarian abuses based on reconstructionist influence-the-culture/save-our-nation/build-God's-Kingdom rhetoric/teaching "on earth" kind of theology just like GC's too.

It's breaking my heart too...I think someone or two is probably reading these forums and may very possibly has figured out who I am and thinks I'm a liar in all this...and I just thought it was neat I wasn't the only one noticing and all this: and hoped to get advice how to help my siblings in Jesus.

Anyone else with examples they can discern regarding the manipulation?

I would not go as far to say that these leaders in gcm are not true believers.  The only thing the elders did that affected me was saying you had to be invited to a small group in order to go after the big move.  Maybe there was subtle manipulation.  Some people could not believe that I wrote about everything whether or not it was taboo or not.  My one discipler told me to write what I am thankful without writing it in poetic verse, which could be a form of mind control and be messing around with the way God gifted me.

[unsubscribed]

steelgirl said

I would not go as far to say that these leaders in gcm are not true believers.

I would agree that we cannot know a persons heart and whether these guys are true believers or not.  I will respond with a quote I heard many times while attending my gc church "You can tell a person' heart by his fruit".

and the "There is no such thing as a perfect church" was usually heard just before "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out"

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[theresearchpersona]

Sorry, I don't mean to say they aren't true believers...but I am trying to highlight the word's threats to those who meddle with God's sheep...OT and NT. And when you encounter them...they're serious. Sadly I've heard leadership in GC read some of them off in services...but only shallowly and glancingly. : (   I do stand behind the thought, though, that if you have a bunch of shallow men who never knew what to do about Church, never knew that you don't "do church" (God assembles Church), who were trained by a manipulative false-apostle who kinived to draw disciples after himself by "sheep stealing" (no wonder their own consciences still sear about this...especially the old-timer GCers)...then they cannot and should not be permitted to remain in any position of authority, or speaking: they repent and step down, or they face the scrutiny of God's word: just as Paul says we should examine ourselves now before the judgment. We can examine ourselves and then we can pray "God search me".

One thing I think about in all this is something physiological. When you're angry or afraid (such as when someone questions your religious ideals...I know the evangelicalism today likes to say "God not religion", however that's quite immature...at any rate, when you question what someone holds dear, sacred, or as true: it creates fear and even anger...and this swells some vessels in the head (if what I've read is correct) so that it actually helps shut-down higher brain functioning; thus you can't be reasoned with if this is you...and this is why if we're in arguments it's a good thing that we often tell people "cool off". However oftentimes people think "we just have to fix what's wrong"...but in many cases the whole thing is broken and wrong: it reminds me of the Worldwide Church of God (Armstrongism) which was fully a Christ-changing cult: and at the continued "nay"s of "evangelicals" when it wanted NAE status and approval it kept re-drafting doctrinal statements only upon the "nay" when it was given...not because of conviction or repentence: then when it was finally approved (and low even by neo-evangelicalism's standards) they were declared Christian and acceptable...despite being unconverted (they couldn't be in this case...their doctrines and gospel were wholly false...still are) and admitted to the NAE: so the horror here about the NAE re-admitting even GC or its affiliates isn't unwarranted...and shouldn't be horror but expected. GC, though, as far as "church praxy/practice" goes, and much if not most of its teaching, and even basic teaching on God...is fundamentally flawed, as lone put it,

The behaviors you observe are inherited. There has been a steady development of the language and actions you now see, but the seeds of their current behavior were sown years ago when there was no accountability and no records kept to prove anything.

Anyways, I've on occassion run across forum and blog posts...by original GC members (before "GC" names) and I'm often amazed at what they're speaking about. Whether it be how sad they are that GC's changes actually threw-out things that were biblical, or at insights they have which, I think, do well-document things...I think there's a lot of memory out there which would be nice to tap so we could all sort out those "seeds" and then make war until our brothers and sisters were un-captivated...and truly brought into admiration of Jesus and not GC etc..

But I kind of fear, but not really fear, just suspect, that even if GC were to truly preach everything perfectly, and have genuine un-fake love, and that it were preaching that is biblical while not cold formalism or loveless or anything like that...that much of GC would fall to pieces. It might lose much of its post-modern GCers...as I've seen (and through contact with other people here and elsewhere learned others have) little Gospel (Jesus's true person) and lots of testimonies to the group and people...I've seen lots of "cause" Christianity and pathetic modernist theology...and little about cherishing Christ; and you point-blank ask about what Christ did, how, why...in any depth and you find a loss of words. It's not a wonder that I've seen pastors lamenting and trying to figure out what to do with all the post-youth members as they go lukewarm and/or leave etc. and yet whenever I've read/heard "solutions" I've yet to hear truly Biblical and right answers: because those would smack these men and their works right in the face.

I for one am not worried if the whole thing crumbled and if all the money, buildings, programs, and organizations to try to gain power, influences, and ability, and to support missionaries etc...were completely lost. It doesn't seem God needed these in the beginning...and the only NT collections we see were support of either those laboring in the word (note, those, not them and their programs and building and and and and ), or those brethren that were truly needy. I don't think God needs all this; I don't think He meant to copy the world...and even doubt whether or not He really even wants to bless the use of them. After all the word says he uses the weak things...not the networked business-structures.

Some of these things can be nice to have...and yet many of them leave even Christ open to scorn. One notices that the start of even having buildings to meet seemed to be when the emperors made Christianity "favored". Whereas, for instance, Jerusalem's Church met on Solomon's Porch.

[lone gone]

Mankind, of which Christ's bride is a part, will screw up everything.

If someone wants to "go to war with" the leaders of GC, they may as well set up an army to go after ALL the various churches that preach and practice the same things.

This idealism is admirable. Yet even then, the army set up to defeat the enemies of the Gospel (according to the army) would eventually suffer from the same maladies,folly, ego-driven purity issues that every other sub-set of the body of Christ has eventually suffered from.

If Gamaliel spoke  and his words were recorded by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then dis-regarding them would be folly.

 Acts 5:38-39 And so in the present case I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may be found fighting against God.

I say along with God.....If GC is a plan of men, it will be overthrown without the involvement of men. If it is of God, you will not be able to overthrown them.

One more question....If is partly of God and partly of men, then what?

[theresearchpersona]

   
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:22 am    Post subject:
Mankind, of which Christ's bride is a part, will screw up everything.

If someone wants to "go to war with" the leaders of GC, they may as well set up an army to go after ALL the various churches that preach and practice the same things.

"
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. As I exhorted thee to tarry at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine, neither to give heed to fables and endless genealogies, the which minister questionings, rather than a dispensation of God which is in faith; so do I now. But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and faith unfeigned: from which things some having swerved have turned aside unto vain talking; desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither what they say, nor whereof they confidently affirm.

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully, as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;  according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

I thank him that enabled me, even Christ Jesus our Lord, for that he counted me faithful, appointing me to his service; though I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: howbeit I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief; and the grace of our Lord abounded exceedingly with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ shew forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them which should hereafter believe on him unto eternal life. Now unto the King eternal, incorruptible, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

This charge I commit unto thee, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that by them thou mayest war the good warfare; holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith: of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme.
"
--1 Tim 1

I emphasized one part in bold, but you guys can read the rest to see where it applies to GC and think on it... Yes we are to "war" against all who destroy truth even if they do it in the name of truth. The prophecies we have are a bit different...they're laid-out already written for you and I in scripture, so that's pretty amazing; nonetheless all who truly follow Christ, being born again are to be militant...not for saving this world or influencing it or etc...but for the gospel, that is, the pure gospel, not some vague let's-all-get-along gospel: the gospel is about the person and it's infinitely important that it be kept unmutilated, and the same goes for His bride. Where there's error, but also humility, and willingness to repent in sorrow: FINE; where there's unrepentent false-teachers who dominate the sheep and who're scripturally unqualified and also unsubmitted to God and who thereby in all they do, no matter how good it looks, actually blaspheme God...and in this captivate some sheep (I don't care if it were only one)...war.

With love.

[lone gone]

I am troubled by the fact that War and Army scriptures attract your attention and sway your approach to this subject.  

War the good warfare could also be translated  "Fight the good fight", or "struggle the good struggle"

There are other scriptures where God enjoins us to "reason with Him" that the heavenly wisdom is " peaceable, gentle, reasonable", that we are to correct our brother while looking to ourselves lest we we be led astray.

Whoever decides to call for a war had better be ready to give an account before God. Since you are calling for an army, why not form it. Who would be the leader? You or what other man on earth? Christ has appointed men to lead, but who is the perfect leader? Who would satisfy you and be the perfect person who understands God's will and perfectly preaches God's word?

Christ threw the money changers out of the temple.... but he didn't do the same thing in each local synagog. Rather he taught and did acts of kindness and mercy to back up his teachings. He appealed to Judas, yet didn't hinder him as the betrayal took place.

Again I ask, If is partly of God and partly of men, then what?

[Linda]

Again I ask, If is partly of God and partly of men, then what?

Keep the part that is of God and fix the part that is of men, maybe?

[wastedyearsthere]

"I would agree that we cannot know a persons heart and whether these guys are true believers or not. I will respond with a quote I heard many times while attending my gc church "You can tell a person' heart by his fruit".

I can't tell you HOW many times this was used as a manipulation device.  If you didn't have the fruit they were looking for -- then you weren't a Christian -- the problem was always ME.  Forced fruit.  There was no process of growth or life.  

I remember being told I had BAD fruit from a leader from that church.

So many people were accused of not being Believers from GCC using that verse.....

[theresearchpersona]

At our Church you can figure-out the "fruit" they were looking for...if you get a hold upon the Purpose-Driven materials that are sold to churches which then re-package them: with a GC twist, of course.

And remember I'm not speaking of "war" in the way of the world, or in the sense of bitterly fighting someone...though in this stuff I would wish to give them neither room nor word but stop their mouths, at Paul commanded; it's preferable that they listen and repent...but as we've all seen they're set and they predetermine what they're going to do with you, not listen to you; it's a bit like whenever leadership decides to call someone aside determined to get their way and will not, no matter what you tell or ask them about, ever aver from it but will continue to bullishly insist you obey them...even if you've shown them to be in the wrong according to God's word; and sometimes I wonder if it's because they've decided to get "help" concerning you with other leaders...or if it's just the very poor training to insist on your way and "take action" as a leader...with care and if you search around and check your own belongings you can be really suprised at what materials from GC, some of which they'd probably rather that you don't have, you can dig up; as regards our "war"...weapons not of flesh and blood, remember?

Nevertheless Christ isn't just a rock that His faithful stand upon...but a rock that falls on any of us who stray in such a way as to oppose him: which is any straying; with some God crushes us as chastisement...with others He destroys. I hope it won't, in the end, be the latter for these men...but what they're doing is distorting and changing the gospel.

[MidnightRider]

I can't tell you HOW many times this was used as a manipulation device.  If you didn't have the fruit they were looking for -- then you weren't a Christian -- the problem was always ME.  Forced fruit.  There was no process of growth or life.  

Amen. Fruit was how many people you brought into the church.