Building into wives, a spirit of sacrifice

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[AgathaL'Orange]

Excerpts from Building Courage and a Spirit of Sacrifice Into Our Wives

(Yikes)

Many years ago my wife and I boarded a school bus late at night from Ames, Iowa, to go to a Christian conference in Birmingham, Alabama.   It was 10 p.m. on a Friday night as we all got onto the bus for the long trip.  Neva and I were in one seat and right ahead of us sat another couple.  At that time we did not have any children, but this other couple was expecting a baby.  As the long night of bumping down the road continued, the four of us talked and talked.
   Neva and I were pretty new to the church and didn’t know a lot of people. This couple, however, impressed Neva and me to no end!  The husband was continually serving and leading, not just his wife, but the entire bus.
   If the bus made a simple gas stop he ran to help out, checking the oil, finding the restrooms, asking not only his wife whether she needed anything, but my wife also.  As the night wore on, if the spirit of the Christians was getting a little low, he lifted it through his countenance and attitude.  If need be, he would lead us all in song.  And not only was he serving in this way, but his wife picked up the conversation whenever he took a turn driving. 
We continued our conversation as she answered our questions and explained the vision they shared for their life.  Her quiet dignity and assurance displayed a real strength of character in a pretty trying situation.  Remember that she was pregnant.  If you have never gone on a cross-country school bus trip, you don’t know what you are missing.  Four in the morning reveals the character of a person like no other hour of the day!
   Finally, around sun-up, we decided to catch a little sleep.  I had not thought much about how tired they might be.  Neva fell asleep on my shoulder and I soon followed.  A little while later, I awoke enough to open one eye and saw that the husband was driving the bus again!  His wife was quietly lying on the seat and a small seat it was! 
Awhile later, I awoke again to see that his turn at driving was finished but he was not on the seat with his wife. I assumed that he was in the back somewhere catching a little shut-eye. 
I forgot that the bus was crammed full and there was no room in the back.  And then, I saw where he was. He was curled up on the floor of the bus so that he would not bother his wife, who was sound asleep.  He awoke before I did to continue his work in service and with his spirit. 
I determined to follow his example throughout the day.
   There was a lot about his lifestyle and discipline that spoke to me during that trip.  He demonstrated internal strength and initiative.  His wife not only followed, but followed him cheerfully.  She was not simply a spectator to his ministry, but ably took a vital part in it.  Her conversation never betrayed any complaints.  A woman’s joy is revealed through her tongue – what she says and how she says it.  She seemed to actually be content, although the trip was harder on her than on the rest of us.
I could tell that this husband not only had an inner motivation that was unusual, but that he had successfully built it into his wife also.  I wanted that, not only for my life, but for my wife and our new marriage.

 A pregnant woman needs a bed to sleep in and a comfortable seat to sit in.   Enough said.  grief.  Now, if it's her idea, that's different.  I might think, goodness, she's a trooper.  Not, what kinds of difficult things can I ask of my wife, so she will be a sweet and compliant as THAT MAN'S wife?

Often, courage is shown in our attitude towards sacrifice.  In Proverbs 31, the woman smiled at the future, even when that future involved sacrifice and hard work.  She could see it coming, yet she laughed at it.  Our vision of reaching this world with the gospel necessitates sacrifice.  There is no avoiding this if we desire to do the job. 
For Neva, this involves times when we are apart, travel, conferences, unexpected delays and problems, evenings when I am out with other brothers, and pressures when I am tied up and Neva is busy with the work of raising our kids.
   As Neva and I give ourselves to the work of the Lord, I continually seek to discern her spirit and attitude.  If her speech is burdened with a recital of all her daily problems, I know that she is losing an overall view.  I first attempt to work through those daily matters, then encourage and refresh her by reminding her that her sacrifice is having an eternal effect and is helping to advance God’s kingdom.
   If we try to preserve and protect our marriage - selfishly, to shelter our family from sacrifice, to eliminate all trials, to make life easy and comfortable, the Lord has promised that we will fail. (Mark 8:34-35).  Rather, we must equip and strengthen our wives to face trials with song and joy.  (Actually, we all should be more concerned whether our life is too easy.  We may have lost sight of our first love.)

   I know a couple who gave their last $5 away for the gospel and they did it with joy. 
I know of a couple who cut their honeymoon short to bring another couple to a conference, and they did it with joy. 
I know of many couples who have moved out on a small team to help start churches and they did it with joy.  They are still doing it with joy!
   Sometimes, the only way to cultivate and develop a joyful response to sacrifice on the part of our wives is to plan times of sacrifice into our marriages.  Sometimes, put aside convenience and attend a certain conference, or go witnessing on your “date night,” or refrain from buying a certain household item in order to have money to buy literature for the gospel. 
Sometimes, the only way to learn is to do.  Christian marriage manuals that forget this basic principle are a dime-a-dozen and worth less.

By Rick Whitney

http://www.gcnwdads.com/pages/articles.html


I'd say this is pretty bad marriage advice, honestly.  Again, I have nothing but compassion for Rick, because I truly believe he means well and his heart is in the right place.  You can believe or think these kinds of things, but you shouldn't be teaching them. 

[Huldah]

This seems like a very paternalistic attitude to take toward one's wife. Treat her like a child to be trained up rather than a joint heir in the grace of life.

And I shudder to think of that cheerful brother he so admired, taking a turn driving the bus on apparently way too little sleep.

   Sometimes, the only way to cultivate and develop a joyful response to sacrifice on the part of our wives is to plan times of sacrifice into our marriages.  Sometimes... go witnessing on your “date night"... 

This reminds me of a passage from Anne of Green Gables. Marilla, the elderly spinster who adopts Anne, refuses to let her wear the sort of pretty dresses that Anne's classmates are wearing. A neighbor comments, "Marilla thinks she's cultivating a spirit of humility by making Anne wear those ridiculous clothes, but she's more likely to cultivate a spirit of envy and discontent."

[Rebekah]

YIKES!!

If you like that one, check out "Husbands, Wives, Ministry" (#38 http://www.gcnwdads.com/pages/articles.html). In this article, RW calls the pastors' wives "our girls" and says they should be protected from the "burdens and responsibilities" of knowing what's going on with the church. He says women don't have the ability to teach publicly the way men can and that they shouldn't even go to women-only (non-GC?) spiritual conferences (and certainly not teach at one). Why? Just read this little gem:

"I am obviously not against conferences.  When husbands and wives sit together and issues are taught, the wife can always talk things over with her husband.  But if husbands are not present and wives are taught many things over many hours it makes it difficult for the husband to later respond.  He wasn't there.  What if he doesn't agree with something?"

Wow.

Basically, these women busted their butts to prove that they were godly women who were passionate about serving the Lord and reaching the world for the lost so they could marry one of the up-and-coming leaders. And then, as soon as they're married, their biggest concern is not the lost but their homes and their husbands. That must have come as quite a shock for some pastors' wives. Or maybe they're so exhausted from the near-constant childbearing, homeschooling, church meetings, and housework that they don't notice that everything they had dreamed of doing with their lives is gone.

[Grace]

Honestly, I think we have some of the most courageous, godly, mature women that can be found in the churches of America today.  I strongly believe that they are more sacrificial and humble and truly dignified (gentle and quiet) than any group of wives I have ever watched from any other group of churches I have ever seen.

What elitism! I appreciate people thinking their wives are great. I really do. But to say that they are better than women in other churches is just elitist.

Our wives may not be great speakers or teachers for the church.  They do not need to be.  And I am not sure that the Bible even wants this for women.   I have heard a lot of our wives speak over the years and none of them compare to you men as preachers and teachers.  Our wives have all received positive feedback from other women when they have spoken at seminars and shared their lives.  But they are not preachers.  They should not be burdened thinking that they should become great speakers.  God did not make our wives with these abilities.  Even the most humorous, anecdotal, interesting messages I have heard from a lot of leading women in our churches - they have not measured up to what I have heard from literally hundreds of our leading men over the years. 

Women, you can never be as good a speaker as a man. My heart breaks for the many talented women that are gifted in the area of speaking.

Like I said  -- if the topic is testimonial or anecdotal - I believe this kind of truth is best shared in a relationship context where women know the speaker and where there is opportunity for interaction and questions.  Can our girls share at seminars?  Yes and they do.  Should they be teaching main sessions?  I don't think so.  If they delve into theology I am concerned.  If they are sharing mainly their life and walk as wives and mothers - I think that this is more profitably accomplished in a smaller, more relational context among women that know each other.

"If they delve into theology I am concerned." Are men the only ones that can understand and teach issues related to theology then? This explains why the seminars for women at Faithwalkers is about sharing personal experiences and never about scriptural topics.

This article makes me question if men like RW view women as equals or as something less than an equal. The articles he writes make me cringe with the way women are depicted as being less able to do things, learn things and understand things. That it takes a man to help them live their life right. And the sad thing is that women in the church, especially those married to leaders, seem to be fine with these teachings.

[SarahB]

Wow. So, these women busted their butts to prove that they were godly women who were passionate about serving the Lord and reaching the world for the lost so they could marry one of the up-and-coming leaders. And then, as soon as they're married, their biggest concern is not the lost but their home and their husband. That must have come as quite a shock for some pastors' wives. Or maybe they're so exhausted from the near-constant childbearing, homeschooling, church meetings, and housework that they don't notice that everything they had dreamed of doing with their lives is gone.

I am always so amazed at the way the women that were so passionate about living the Christian life turn into women that never leave their home because they are either busy with the 3 kids that they've had in their first two years of marriage and/or pregnant with their next kid. I have nothing against people having kids and staying at home with them, but it just seems like such a 180 change from who they used to be.

[wastedyearsthere]

I wonder what they would think of Beth Moore?  Very effective speaker and teaches........  Lucy Swindoll another one.....

Very rigid thinking as usual from GCx leaders... 

[MarthaH]

What we are noticing in GCx is a culture which has its own norms and practices. For example, the fraternity system has many unspoken norms which people follow (as people always do) regarding attire, activity and lifestyle. Not everybody practices these things, but there is a peer pressure to conform.

What complicates things is that in GCx, there is a culture that exists with peer pressures to do things that aren't necessarily wrong, but they should be left up to personal preference. For instance, scripture doesn't tell you how big your family needs to be and that should be left up to personal conviction, but these practices so often get confused as being "the biblical model." The shepherds should teach on the sanctity of life and even teach on the blessings of family and yes, even against the values the worldly culture has towards children. However, I believe what I am hearing as far as concerns go in this forum is that perhaps people are copying culture in GCx when making their decisions to date (or not date), to have quick engagements, get married and have children immediately (followed by "Growing Up Whitney", homeschooling and youth groups).

I would attest that these things take place in the church I attended. The culture put pressure on people to follow these patterns, even though none of them can be found as mandated in scripture. It is interesting to note that a person in GCx can flat out deny that any of these pressures exist if you were to confront them. For instance, when I confronted leaders that these pressures to not date existed, they would deny it and point to the 2 couples in the student group who were dating (even though they had tried to break them up).

Point being (and here's where it somewhat relates to this thread), if you are in the system, the culture doesn't encourage you to marry outside of the system; although that happens on rare occasion. Once a man has chosen you, you are expected to like him and have a quick courtship and a quick engagement. Once you have your wedding, it would be a noble gesture if you invited people you hardly know who are younger so they can hear the example of how God has blessed you in the system. If you abstained from physical touch during your relationship, it might make it into the wedding sermon before the gospel is shared (minus the altar call...just speak to a friend you came with or the pastor after the service is done ). Again, although it may not be said straight forward by leadership (and by the way, in controlling churches nothing is ever said straight forward by leadership) the young couple may feel the pressure to begin their family earlier rather than later.

Let me say it again, there is nothing wrong with choosing not to date or to court, having a quick engagement, abstaining from all physical touch, starting a family immediately or having a large family which is home-schooled and active in the church! The concern is when people develop a group-think mentality in a performance based system. For instance, if your husband desires to be a pastor some day and the rest of leadership all have between 4-8 kids, he may feel the pressure from the culture and not from God to have more children. If all the women in leadership are "quiet and submissive" and if the culture defines that as always taking the back seat as far as desires go, it can also turn into something damaging. At least the movement has moved away from putting women's lives at risk by birthing children at home!
*If you want to raise a huge red flag, ask your pastor (assuming he was appointed in the 70's or 80's) if they did home birthing and why they did it AND why their children don't!

My last comment on this is that so much of this culture is taught from the pulpits and in inner circles of leadership as being noble and qualifications for leadership. If you are around it for long periods of time, it begins to effect you. That is why the church I was part of used so many events where testimonials were shared so as to advance the culture.

[wounded]

I am so thankful for some of these posts. What helped me to leave was realizing that people who left weren't divisive, but saw the same things that I saw. I hope that anyone who is still in and reads some of these posts doesn't dismiss the people on this forum and "angry or divisive", but reads these posts objectively. I'm thankful that I was able to speak with people who got out! Great posts!

[Huldah]

But if husbands are not present and wives are taught many things over many hours it makes it difficult for the husband to later respond.  He wasn't there.  What if he doesn't agree with something?"

Talk about logical absurdity. So if the speaker is, say, Joni Tada or Kay Arthur, but the husband has never even read through the entire Bible in his life, his opinion still prevails. The truth is not a fixed, objective target, but rather, adaptable to one's place in the pecking order. That's very dangerous ground. "Sanctify them in truth. Their husbands' individual opinions are truth."

Even the most humorous, anecdotal, interesting messages I have heard from a lot of leading women in our churches - they have not measured up to what I have heard from literally hundreds of our leading men over the years.

A good teacher is one who expounds on doctrine.
Women are not permitted to expound on doctrine.
Therefore women are not CAPABLE of becoming good speakers.

Critical thinking has never been a strong point of the GC leadership.

[Linda]

What about things wives hear every day that aren't in a conference setting? You know, talking with other women from the church or neighborhood, watching TV, reading a book, listening to the radio when their husband isn't around. How could a "gal" possibly ever think for herself in those situations?

And what about those single sisters? They have no one to do their discerning.

I know it's been said before, but it seems that GC leaders have very little understanding of the Holy Spirit.

[Grace Abounding]

My last comment on this is that so much of this culture is taught from the pulpits and in inner circles of leadership as being noble and qualifications for leadership. If you are around it for long periods of time, it begins to effect you. That is why the church I was part of used so many events where testimonials were shared so as to advance the culture.

Nobody says that this is how everybody should do things, but people that do these things are praised and held up as models of the Christian life lived right.

[Captain Bible]

, it can also turn into something damaging. At least the movement has moved away from putting women's lives at risk by birthing children at home!
*If you want to raise a huge red flag, ask your pastor (assuming he was appointed in the 70's or 80's) if they did home birthing and why they did it AND why their children don't!

MarthaH, I don't want to change topic but you should see this film on birth. It is very interesting.

http://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/

[Captain Bible]

I would include GC as part of the quiver full movement (Women should always be under a man). In that world independent educated women have no place in the church. Perhaps that is why I have become such a feminist today.

I think GC stays quiet about their views on women because it is such a hot button issue to “unbelievers.” (become all things to all men and so forth...”) 

If GC would appoint woman leaders there would be a lot of positive changes in the organization.
But alas the bible does not want women to be leaders. After all, who the heck is Deborah?

[Huldah]

At least the movement has moved away from putting women's lives at risk by birthing children at home! If you want to raise a huge red flag, ask your pastor (assuming he was appointed in the 70's or 80's) if they did home birthing and why they did it AND why their children don't!

Now I'm curious. I left just before the baby boom started to hit Solid Rock. Since I'm not in Columbus any more, and we're short of GC pastors hereabouts, I'm hoping you'll explain further.

[MarthaH]

I've heard several stories of families from the Ames church having children at home (I think it was when I talked to a woman at a coffee event).  As that is not my time, I am not an expert, but I am passing along stories which I have picked up from some of the folk from that era. I also had a conversation with a pastor's wife once who told me how that was just how a lot of people did things (not everyone). Kind of like how they supposedly wore head-coverings. One of my conversations was with a pastor's kid who told me that their parents used to home-birth until they almost had a bad incident and had to rush to the hospital. When they shared that with me, it was in the sense that it was just one of the crazy things they used to do. Perhaps people who experienced more of that could clarify or chime in.

The reason I mentioned it wasn't because I am in favor or against it, but rather to add to the point I was trying to make that things become part of the culture which are not mandated by Scripture and that once it becomes part of the culture, people have a tendency to follow. That can be dangerous.

Another example would be how the majority of people home-school. Again, nothing wrong with that. However, if there are pressures to do so and they extend from a feeling that one needs to conform, it may not be a good thing. If a parent chooses not to home-school in the church I attended, they can feel pressure and even shame. That was the feeling I got from a GCLI I attended. It wasn't long after that when I started questioning things. I would say that the church has a home-school culture through Jr. High. After that parents were supposed to send their kids to the high school to be missionaries to their peers and build a stronger youth group. Now I believe they are teaming up with a Christian school, so I'm sure the next trend will be to send them to that school. People basically follow the pastor's lead (if they are committed). It is the culture that people are following over the word of God.

Just to clarify - I didn't mean that all families in that era home-birthed, nor is there anything necessarily wrong with that. My understanding was that it was the conviction of many in that time, yet the irony is that it is not the practice of the next generation, meaning the culture has changed and they were following culture.

[nolongergci]

We home-birthed while in GCI and also after we left the movement. We were a rarity! I'm only aware of 2 babies besides ours born at home. It was never taught in our church. We did it because we had bad birth experiences in the hospital.

Now our daughters and a daughter-in-law also home-birth and none of them are in GCI (or churches that would ever teach where a baby should be born.) There are various reasons to home-birth.

[wastedyearsthere]

Homeschooling is promoted and pushed.  Homeschool until your child reaches middle school and then put them into public.  I knew of families that chose to educate in a Christian school and they were given lots of grief and pressure regarding this!  If you are a GCx family and see things differently you have to be strong to stand against the tide of the leaders pressure to conform. 

[lone gone]

My ex-wife and I attended Ames Fellowship Church  ( Pre-Stonebrook ) and ISU Bible Study from 1973-83.

Yes, there was a strong movement to Home birth and home school.  I was taking Elementary Ed classes at ISU in order to get ready for home schooling our children. 

Our son was born in the hospital in Des Moines when we had insurance to cover it in 1975. No one in Ames disrespected this act on our part. On a side note I was one of the first fathers to be allowed to observe his birth in the delivery room so this really goes to show the measure of social changes taking place in society in general.

  In 1978 we had no insurance and my daughter was born at our home in Ames. We had a nurse-midwife in attendance and my wife had complete pre-natal care through our family doctor. When we determined that there were no "contra-indications" to her pregnancy we determined to have our baby at home. It went off without complications.  We didn't think much of it at the time as many other children had been born at home by that time. The one thing about home birth in those days was that a nurse-midwife was not allowed to "practice medicine" so she could not be paid.  We ended up buying a very nice baby scale to give her as a gift for her help during the delivery.

[Linda]

Along the lines of "building a spirit of sacrifice" into wives, I must add this quote. It is from Faithwalkers 2005. I personally know 3 people who listened to this talk and left their GC church over this message. It was eye opening for them, so, in a way I am glad for Faithwalkers and for the boldness with which the beliefs of Great Commission Churches are taught there. Those attending Faithwalkers or listening to the talks learn what the "movement" believes, teaches, and demands.

Here is the quote:

Many years ago, Kathy asked me this question. This is a heavy question when you're a husband. You'll understand when I say this. She said to me, "Mark, if there was any one thing that I could do for you that would be most important, what would it be?" A lot of things come to your mind as a young husband when that question gets asked. Usually, actually, only about one, but I won't get into that. (Laughter from the audience.) It's certainly Biblical, but we won't get into that (more giggles). I looked at Kathy and I thought really long and hard, "You know what, this is a huge moment right here, this is a huge moment right now." It kind of dawned on me. There was no one else around and it was really quiet. It was like, "She really wants to know what I think, what am I gonna say?" And my mind processes really fast. That's another thing that's frustrating about gettin' old, I misfire  sometimes. I don't like that. And I looked at her and I said, "Kathy, the single most important thing you can do for me is this. Don't become a basket case. Don't become an anchor around my feet. Stay encouraged in God. Keep your own heart encouraged. Keep focused on the Lord because I'm going for God and I can not be slowed down."

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,  so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.  For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church,  because we are members of his body.

Sometimes things "sound" good. It sounds "noble" for a man to ask his wife to make sacrifices for her husband--especially so that he can "go for God" and "not be slowed down" in that pursuit. However, that's not what God says. In the marriage, the husband is to love as Christ. He is to give his life up for his wife. He's the man. He makes the sacrifice. The wife does not have that role in a Christian marriage where symbolically the "bride" represents the church and the "groom" represents Jesus Christ.

I am reminded of what C. S. Lewis wrote in The Four Loves and find it ironic that GC, who prides itself in it's complementarian view can not see that teaching wives to "make the sacrifice" does not fit at all with the complementarian model. Go ahead guys, have the gals take the hit, make them be strong, you are in charge, you are the leader, teach them to sacrifice so you can go strong for the Lord.

The sternest feminist need not grudge my sex the crown offered to it either in the Pagan or in the Christian mystery. For the one is of paper and the other of thorns. The real danger is not that husbands may grasp the latter too eagerly; but that they will allow or compel their wives to usurp it.

[Grace Abounding]

Along the lines of "building a spirit of sacrifice" into wives, I must add this quote. It is from Faithwalkers 2005. I personally know 3 people who listened to this talk and left their GC church over this message. It was eye opening for them, so, in a way I am glad for Faithwalkers and for the boldness with which the beliefs of Great Commission Churches are taught there. Those attending Faithwalkers or listening to the talks learn what the "movement" believes, teaches, and demands.

Here is the quote:

Many years ago, Kathy asked me this question. This is a heavy question when you're a husband. You'll understand when I say this. She said to me, "Mark, if there was any one thing that I could do for you that would be most important, what would it be?" A lot of things come to your mind as a young husband when that question gets asked. Usually, actually, only about one, but I won't get into that. (Laughter from the audience.) It's certainly Biblical, but we won't get into that (more giggles). I looked at Kathy and I thought really long and hard, "You know what, this is a huge moment right here, this is a huge moment right now." It kind of dawned on me. There was no one else around and it was really quiet. It was like, "She really wants to know what I think, what am I gonna say?" And my mind processes really fast. That's another thing that's frustrating about gettin' old, I misfire  sometimes. I don't like that. And I looked at her and I said, "Kathy, the single most important thing you can do for me is this. Don't become a basket case. Don't become an anchor around my feet. Stay encouraged in God. Keep your own heart encouraged. Keep focused on the Lord because I'm going for God and I can not be slowed down."

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,  so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.  For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church,  because we are members of his body.

Sometimes things "sound" good. It sounds "noble" for a man to ask his wife to make sacrifices for her husband--especially so that he can "go for God" and "not be slowed down" in that pursuit. However, that's not what God says. In the marriage, the husband is to love as Christ. He is to give his life up for his wife. He's the man. He makes the sacrifice. The wife does not have that role in a Christian marriage where symbolically the "bride" represents the church and the "groom" represents Jesus Christ.

I am reminded of what C. S. Lewis wrote in The Four Loves and find it ironic that GC, who prides itself in it's complementarian view can not see that teaching wives to "make the sacrifice" does not fit at all with the complementarian model. Go ahead guys, have the gals take the hit, they are strong, you are in charge, you are a leader, teach them to sacrifice so you can go strong for the Lord.

The sternest feminist need not grudge my sex the crown offered to it either in the Pagan or in the Christian mystery. For the one is of paper and the other of thorns. The real danger is not that husbands may grasp the latter too eagerly; but that they will allow or compel their wives to usurp it.

I think that th biggest issue is that some of the men that are leaders in the GC churches feel more responsibility towards their church duties than they do towards their wives. They equate their relationship with God with the church. While it's appropriate for them to place their relationship with God first, it becomes inappropriate when doing so puts the church before their wife. It's as if they are married to the church first and their wive second.