Building into wives, a spirit of sacrifice

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

They equate their relationship with God with the church.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church is not Christ.

In GC, I have come to believe that the devotion to "the local church" that they teach is a form of idolatry. The are devoted to "God and the church". God must stand alone. When you put an "and" after God, whatever comes next is an idol.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I think this is so true.  I remember feeling guilty for wanting time with my husband in GC.  How stupid is that?  I hate that we listenend to them.  I really think many of them think of marriage (like friendship and church membership) as utilitarian.  Relationships serve a PURPOSE to them.  It's raising "arrows" (children or little soldiers), keeping you sexually pure, having a little servant (preferably a hot one) who can support your church roles, and that's about it.  I didn't get the idea that other marriages were about friendship, a deep soul connection, or an adventure.  In my opinion, as long as you are not disobeying scripture, you can have any kind of marriage you want to have.  In GC, however, I (and my husband), did not fit the mold.  He bought me jewelry, took me on vacation, skipped retreats (or tried and was corrected, ugh), and would meet me for walks or shopping trips while at conferences.  We always had each other as best friends and equals, and I think that was confusing for the leadership.

Today I am so thankful.  My hardwiring for a deep connection coupled with a light and fun relationship would probably have me in a deep depression were we still in GC.

[AgathaL'Orange]

The other thing that is humorous in a dark way is, I don't think GC men need to build a spirit of sacrifice "into" GCwives.  Isn't bearing, raising, homeschooling, and holding down the fort while the husbands devote hours to the church and travel, enough sacrifice?  I mean most "normal" husbands would see that as a backbreaking labor of love and would try to help, making their family the focus (a la Dobson).  But no, strong little soldier wives can shoulder all that themselves, right?  Just don't pull those men down.  Don't be a weight on your ankles.  Sooner or later, though, the truth comes out, that in every day service to our familes, we are refined, disciplined, and trained.  It's in changing poopy diapers that we find love and humility.  These guys have it all wrong.  They are lords of their little fiefdoms, but I have no respect for them.

I know secular men who try not to travel much when they have even 2 or 3 kids.  But with the number of children many GC families have (which I think is wonderful, by the way), the level of work is pretty high.  

I believe many of the women are disassociating themselves and that's why you see women who can't "see" and who are in an odd cheerful state of denial... the glazed expression, the uniform voice... it's there, but you have to know what you are seeing.

[wastedyearsthere]

I really think many of them think of marriage (like friendship and church membership) as utilitarian.  Relationships serve a PURPOSE to them. 

This is totally true.  Obviously true otherwise why would they dump their friends the moment they leave the church?  We were told how often to spend with friendships.  One leader told a friend of mine that she spent too much time with me.  That she spent enough time to maintain the relationship.  She should be out meeting new people, evangelizing, discipling.  Everything is GCC is that one goal.  Friendships are just another way to meet that goal.  Once you had a close friendship they didn't want you to live with that person or spent too much time - they always seemed to want to divide friendships.  Every year we were divided (in terms of teams and living situations) in order to minister to new people. 

[Linda]

More from Faithwalkers 2005. I think these men make their point very clearly and I commend them for their boldness. At least they are being honest about what they believe. GC is about more than evangelism. It is a "sect" of leadership. The goal is to make men great. The role of the GC woman (married or single) is to make a GC man great. The only way us "gals" can "get on board" with what God is doing is to marry one of 'em.

Now, some of you ladies may be saying, "Why are you focusing so much on men?" You go home and ask your local pastor about that, cuz I don't have time to get into it today. (ha, ha, ha, from the audience). Seriously, I want everybody to close their eyes now. Men, stand up. Everybody close your eyes. I want to make an observation here. I think more men aspired for the office of an overseer 30 years ago than they do today. Is it because God is calling less men, or is it because less men are willing. Your eyes closed men, I want to ask you a question. Who of you have enough guts to at least stand before God and ask, "Lord, do you want me to be a pastor?" If you have enough guts to at least do that, then why don't you raise your hand. OK. Thank you. Women, who of you have enough faith to be able to stand before the Lord and say, "Lord, I want to be a tool to make a man better. God work through me to do great things for you." Do you have enough guts to stand before God and see that you could be an unbelievable tool of how God works into a man's life, if you can believe that, if you're willing to stand before God and ask God about that, why don't you raise your hand? And then, how many of you are really gonna have the faithfulness to go through with what we just said, or, will you leave this room and say, "Boy, that was a nice message," and forget all about it?

Stop trying to unmold these men and unleash these men. Take the tethers off and unleash these men. And pray for these men. And you wanna be joined with one of 'em? Then marry one of 'em. Marry one of 'em. You ask God, "Lord, I wanna make one of these men great. Hook me up with one of 'em who wants to be that man."

[Grace]

I really think many of them think of marriage (like friendship and church membership) as utilitarian.  Relationships serve a PURPOSE to them. 

This is totally true.  Obviously true otherwise why would they dump their friends the moment they leave the church?  We were told how often to spend with friendships.  One leader told a friend of mine that she spent too much time with me.  That she spent enough time to maintain the relationship.  She should be out meeting new people, evangelizing, discipling.  Everything is GCC is that one goal.  Friendships are just another way to meet that goal.  Once you had a close friendship they didn't want you to live with that person or spent too much time - they always seemed to want to divide friendships.  Every year we were divided (in terms of teams and living situations) in order to minister to new people. 

This is SO true! Friendships should be used to further the gospel. Friends couldn't just be friends for the sake of friendship. They used friendships as a tool to attract more people. If two people were close and they were placed in the same outreach team, it was because they wanted people to be attracted to their friendship and want to have friendships like that (which were of course not possible outside the church)!

[Innerlight]

I have to say I was deeply troubled by Mary Knox's discussion on women, beauty, hair, make-up, etc....
I have only listened to a few of these messages (see my next post), but a steady diet of this type of teaching must be EXHAUSTING!  I can only imagine getting beat up every weekend and wednesday like this.  It's no wonder my friends who are in GCC see a sex maniac behind every man, a commie behind every bush, and non believers everywhere! 

First, as a man, and a believer, I am in the process of transformation (that includes all things).  Women are beautiful!  Gasp I said it.  I saw a cute girl at the health club tonight, and that was it.  I know that's hard for her to believe, but I wasn't leering, drooling, thinking lustful thoughts or putting a move on her.  Seems to me I met my wife in college because I thought she was attractive.  Hmmm...how do you reconcile that.  Married 25 years, and never even thought of cheating, and I travel for a living. 

Second, how dare you insinuate that we are just a bunch of sex crazed weirdo's just looking to pounce.  I'm a Christian man who respects women (we even have women deacons in our denomination), and some of the best Bible Study I've ever had came from a godly women who I consider a mentor.

Third, there is a mention in the talk about a member (maybe even a pastor) who struggles with lustful thoughts at church, and struggles with pornography at the church office.  Why would you tell that story, what purpose could it serve?  If you know that, that person needs to be removed.  In another part there is a mention of a man who can’t be at the Easter service because of the provocative clothes the women wear at service.  If he is a minister, he needs to be disciplined immediately.  That’s what elders are for.   
 
Next time I’d spend a little more time on how Christ can transform a man (or women), and a discussion of Romans 12:2
 

[AgathaL'Orange]

I agree!  The way GC painted it all men were sex crazed!  They couldn't be anywhere near a woman, let alone a woman in a sleek turtleneck sweater, scoop neck, or normal length skirt.  It's so strange.  I'm sure there are people who struggle with sin in this area, OF COURSE.  Sex is a highly motivational behavior... that's why they use it to sell things.  But what we've learned by being Christians is that sin might look attractive, but ultimately it's empty and crumbling and striving after the wind. 

I'm not sure about this, but I wonder how much this sort of teaching has to do with behavior control.  Let me explain.

Let's say you want people to do everything you want them to do.  And when they do it, they will get a candy bar.  The more candy bars they get, the more mature they are and then they can start giving candy bars out to other people.  They talk up how good these candy bars are and how NO ONE can have them until it's Candy Bar Eating TIME.  If you want a candy bar, you have to ask permission and prove yourself.  If you still want candy bars or THINK about eating candy bars, well then, you are not mature enough to have a candy bar and must wait and suffer even if there is a candy bar that is available, and can be yours and only yours.  You must wait and submit to the candy bar benefactors.

Sex is the candy bar.  They talk about it all the time.  They tell you not to think about it.  Certainly don't do it.  You can only do it when you are married.  You can only get married if you courted or Dwaped (Dated with a purpose).  And you can only court if you have permission or have shown yourself to be marriage material.  You show yourself to be marriage material (which means sex material and mature male material and building a family material) if you do EVERY SINGLE THING your leader tells you to do.  If he says, meet me for prayer at 6, you do it.  If he says meet me for prayer at 10 pm, you do it.  If he says don't go home over Christmas, go to Faithwalkers, you do it.  If he says give me your money, live with these people, take classes at college (even if you already have a degree) to evangelize, YOU DO IT.

Then, you get to court, marry an approved spouse, and get your candy bar.  Well, since it then becomes all about sex and not love and not friendship and not a partnership or an adventure... you are not going to ultimately be satisfied.  It's really sad, and it breaks my heart. 

The sermons, the confessional, the accountability, all of it is pretty ineffective at making someone STOP THINKING excessively about sex or doing sinful sexual behaviors.  You know what IS effective?  Filling your life with LIFE.  Filling your days with people and activities and a rich life.  That can also help with alcohol abuse and substance abuse.  Addictions tend to make your world smaller.  Making your world bigger (which is the antithesis of GC's objective) is helpful at fighting addiction.  GC wants to reach the world, fine.  But they shouldn't do this at the expense of people's lives. 

I believe that GC uses sex to control.  I've never met a group of people more obsessed with sex.  And I live in America in 2011.  That's saying something. 

[Innerlight]

i agree as well.  My "friends" who belong to a GCC church talk about it constantly, and with their kids as well.  They even come after my kids sometime, and I firmly steer the discussion another way.     

[Linda]

You show yourself to be marriage material (which means sex material and mature male material and building a family material) if you do EVERY SINGLE THING your leader tells you to do.  If he says, meet me for prayer at 6, you do it.  If he says meet me for prayer at 10 pm, you do it.  If he says don't go home over Christmas, go to Faithwalkers, you do it.  If he says give me your money, live with these people, take classes at college (even if you already have a degree) to evangelize, YOU DO IT.

And how many stories have we heard about people having to wait years to get the permission of their elder before they could marry. If some man is controlling when you marry you're sweetie, you are going to do all you can to please that man so you can get his permission.

Listening to a message on marriage/sex (I was recently asked by a current member to listen to a particular talk), I was shocked by the vulgar/coarse content. The public (and children of the speakers) does not need to know the details of any married couples life. Ever. I was told that the husband of someone attending the conference wished his wife was like the woman who gave the talk.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that GC elders are not so much "leaders" as they are "followers". They have redefined the term leader to mean one who follows. I really hope that one day, one of the recognized leaders has the courage to stand up and actually lead! They could start by pointing out and correcting years and years of bad teaching.