Care To Beat A Dead Horse ...Anyone?

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[skewed_grace]

...been just wondering what you guys think about God's will for our lives. i realize this forum is sort of based around the idea to debunk the GCx's authoritative approach of interpreting God's will; however, now that we are on our own...is there really a way to be in fellowship with God while we are here on Earth?


p.s. if  the moderator feels like this thread is outside of the scope of this forum, he/she might feel free to move it to an appropriate discussion board ...or delete  it altogether.

[namaste]

FWIW, I think this is a very pertinent topic....as it relates to GCx leaders professing themselves to be the sole qualified interpreters of God's will for member's lives.  :wink:

[skewed_grace]

for clarification purposes...

this topic was inspired by a conversation i eavesdropped at a restaurant the other day. two men were talking about god's will (and that alone stirred up a lot of not-so-pleasant memories). one of them mentioned how he clearly heard God speak to him through a verse he read that morning. i *in all fairness* was trying to zoom out and kept looking in my bowl. but by the virtue of being alone, staring in your bowl gets a little too old a little too quickly. so...i tuned back in. and like any other talk radio, no matter how much you missed, you always jump right where you left. the men were still talking about how sometimes God clearly speaks to people. now both of them were involved in the conversation. each one seemed to have enough to contribute to the topic. as it turned out, one of them was going on a business trip. and THAT was nothing else but God's will.


i sat there for another 10-15 minutes. a little depressed, i have to say. in all my years of calling myself a christian, i never had a close encounter with God like that. they say it's maybe because you are not sincere...OR (which i like better) it's not God's will for you to hear *your* God's will just yet.  seems like we come on top either way and know what god's will is....

[lone gone]

Well I can say I have had a variety of experiences. regarding hearing God and knowing what God's purpose/will is.

In the past I have:

 1.Used Scripture verses to justify my actions ( sort of like self fulfilling prophecies where I saw what I wanted to see in God's word)

2.I have also thought I heard a voice in my head at different times in my life.
Among other things it said I would never win the lottery so don't bother trying it!

3. I have also had moments of insight into situtions.... intuition if you will.

But the longer I have been on this earth and have studied scriptures and opened my eyes to observe God's purpose in the people around me, the more I have come to  understand that  God's purpose unfolds for each of us differently and that God's will for one person at any given time is not the same as God's will for someone else.

It would be unproductive for me to instruct someone what God's purpose for their life is. I thought I was following God's will when I attended Ames Fellowship Church (precursor of Stonebrook GCI)  I thought I was following God's will  when I left . I thought I as following God's will when I attended a conservative Lutheran church. I thought I was following God's will when I left. I thought I was following God's will when I moved to Pa. and joined a different church. On and on it goes.

I have come to see that almost anything I do can simultaneously be both in and out of God's will. I also think that it is the mark of immaturity to not trust God with the mysteries of life by striving for a "purpose" to live.

I appreciate Ecclesiastes and Acts like I couldn't before.

[G_Prince]

I have been a Christian for 25 years, and I have never heard God speak to me that way. This was the beginning of my major disconnect with GCx. They always told me God would "speak" in such and such a way. But he never did. At first you think it is you; maybe you are not saved, or worthy enough etc...but eventually you realize that God works in different ways for different people. Everyone is unique, everyone's relationship with the divine is unique.  What is God's plan for my life? I have no idea, I can only catch glimpses of it  in the faces of those around me. Somehow it is connected with everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike. We are all traveling together into the unknown.

[G_Prince]

I have come to see that almost anything I do can simultaneously be both in and out of God's will. I also think that it is the mark of immaturity to not trust God with the mysteries of life by striving for a "purpose" to live.

Well Said!

[puff of purple smoke]

I have been a Christian for 25 years, and I have never heard God speak to me that way. This was the beginning of my major disconnect with GCx.

Interesting.. I felt like I had the opposite problem with my GCx church. They didn't believe me when I felt God was leading me to do something. They wanted to dictate what God's will was for my life, even if it contradicted what I felt God was leading me to. They acted like God would not talk to anyone but the leaders.

[MidnightRider]

Just to make sure we are on the same page: What were you taught about "God's will for your life" in GCx? In the early 80s, I was taught that God's will for your life is The Great Commission - you should use your life to reach the world with the gospel. And you should be part of a church that is reaching the world with the gospel. And your friends should be those who are working with you to reach the world with the gospel. And your spouse (if you get one) should be the person who can help you reach the world with the gospel. And your career should be the way you can earn money while you reach the world with the gospel. And your finances should be managed so that you can spend as much money as possible reaching the world with the gospel. And the clothes you wear should be the clothes that help you reach the world with the gospel. Etc.

[lone gone]

There seems to be two questions posted by the Original poster.  

Is there any way to be in fellowship with God while on earth?( knowing god's will)

How does God communicate with us ( "He clearly heard God speak to him through a verse")

I spoke to the "Hearing God speak" topic.

[skewed_grace]

Midnightrider,


you pretty much hit the nail on the head with how it was in my GCx church, and yet they would still go further and interpret god's will in smaller things (what car to buy, what job to have and etc.)
I think that hearing god speak is not a bonus that comes with the decision to become a christian, but rather the ultimate life goal.  I think the time of God clearly speaking to people is long over. On the one hand, it sucks to be us being here all on our own, but on the other hand, we are not exactly alone. I think just like Christ was once born in the manger, the spirit is born within us when we decide to follow God. And then we both grow (figuratively) by learning from the experience of other believers, the Scripture and etc. In some, completely unknown to me, way our minds transform and become more and more like  Christ’s. I mean…this is how it’s supposed to be, I guess. In my own experience, it’s much more complicated and painful.
Thus, I don’t think there is one, God chosen, path for my life (read: will). A life lived in the spirit IS God’s will. I remember how the leaders would read some verse in the bible and find a divine application, i.e. if you are praying about whether to go somewhere or not, and then you read a verse about travelling...voila…here  god himself spoke to you.
Anyways, for some reason, I have a hard time getting my point across. But, god willing, you can still get what I am trying to say
 :wink:

[MidnightRider]

skewed,

Does God speak to us today? I suppose it depends on what you mean. If there is, e.g., some guy out there thinking about cheating on his wife, then I would say that God is speaking to him in Exodus 20:14. He does not need some "word of knowledge" to know what God wants him to do (or not do, in this case).

I surmise that is not what is meant by "finding God's will for my life", though.

A few years ago I read a book
Decision Making and the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View by Garry Friesen &  J. Robin Maxson
that I thought was very good. There are some good summaries on www.amazon.com .

[G_Prince]

In my church God's will for your life was a very important issue. Of course the ultimate will was the Great Commission, but how that would be carried out at a personal level was up in the air. It's just like Midnight was saying, everything revolved around the commission.

How to find God's will was another matter. First it seemed you had to be led into something. Finding a career, a spouse, a house, a move, children etc. This seemed to come from an inner prompting usually occurring after a quiet time Bible study, sermon, etc. I never personally experienced the "inner call" so I'm very curious what this sensation is like...anyone care to explain.

Finally, after you were prompted, you had to run it by your leaders. This is were GCx really gets into trouble. I know lots of people who felt God was strongly leading them to do something but were told not to by the leaders. Usually this happened when God was calling someone away from GCx or away from some ministry activity. Hmmmm...kind of fishy.

I can't imagine how frustrating this would be. To be led by God, but then denied by your church.

Back to being led by the spirit...I think there may have been over-reliance on this at my church. Often I felt as though I couldn't trust myself either, logically, or emotionally. All decision had to be made by God despite what I thought or felt about it. Since I couldn't trust myself, who could I trust?  ...ahhh leaders of course. People who don't know anything about me, but they sure know God's will don't they.... Obviously an easy and open channel for authoritarian abuse.

[MidnightRider]

How to find God's will was another matter. First it seemed you had to be led into something. Finding a career, a spouse, a house, a move, children etc. This seemed to come from an inner prompting usually occurring after a quiet time Bible study, sermon, etc. I never personally experienced the "inner call" so I'm very curious what this sensation is like...anyone care to explain.
  [...]
Often I felt as though I couldn't trust myself either, logically, or emotionally. All decision had to be made by God despite what I thought or felt about it. Since I couldn't trust myself, who could I trust?  ...ahhh leaders of course. People who don't know anything about me, but they sure know God's will don't they.... Obviously an easy and open channel for authoritarian abuse.

G,

FWIW, I do not agree with this way of seeking God's will. God leads through explicit revelation in the Bible, providence, wisdom, and through your own preferences.

It would seem comforting to have God tell you what to do whenever you face a tough decision in life, but in practice it turns into chaos much as you have described. As others have mentioned, even Bible study becomes problematic. The text can no longer be studied for its grammatical-historical meaning. Instead you have to look for something that superficially seems to resemble whatever circumstance you are in, and "apply" the verse of the day accordingly.

I would urge Christians to study the Bible carefully, pray, listen to good advice, pay attention to what is going on around you, and within the confines of those guidelines, do what you think is best.

[jehu]

Rumor is that God left us the whole universe, but with an Estate that large, of course it's being contested.  What a headache for the executor. That's what happens when you leave so many radically different Testaments behind.

[exshep]

Great post. No quick answers.  I have to figure it out for myself. The two churches I attend in Cleveland would have the pastors and teachers expound the word in accurate detail. It was then  our responsibility to do our homework and figure out how to apply it.

If I am profoundly moved by a sermon, I let the catharsis wear off and then come back to it.

I still realize my righteousness are still as filthy rags.  I am also a compulsive planner.  I have to let go and let God.  There are days I have to sit back and realize that God can do a far better job of things and I am content in letting him do it.

Just one poster's opinion.

[EverAStudent]

What a great question.  What is God’s will for my life, especially since GCI is not there to tell me what it is anymore?

Over the decades I have come to understand the scriptural truth, that God does not let us know what our life will do or the impact it will have after we have died:

Ecc 6:12  For who knows what is good for a man during his lifetime, during the few years of his futile life? He will spend them like a shadow. For who can tell a man what will be after him under the sun?

No other man can tell you God’s will, or better yet, what the impact of your life has been, or how your life has fit into God’s overall plan.  He keeps this secret to himself.  

Ecc 7:14  In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider-- God has made the one as well as the other So that man will not discover anything that will be after him.

Ecc 10:14  Yet the fool multiplies words. No man knows what will happen, and who can tell him what will come after him?

God does not normally reveal His purpose, intent, direction, or desired outcomes to men, except that all men should repent.  He only asks that they live their lives in obedience to His Word, His precepts, His principles.  His Holy Spirit, working undetectibly, gives us life, makes us sensitive to the people and world around us, sensitive to God, and even illumines some of the Word for us.  But He does not spell out our specific choices or even what will happen as a result of each choice.  

Ecc 12:13  The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

If any church ever states they know God’s will or plan for my life, I politely thank them and head for the door.

[DrSam]

Just my two cents:

God has a general will for everyone (all humanity).

God has a general will for all the Church (Universal).

God has a specific will for each child of his.

God reveals Himself to each child in a way that child will know if he/she is receptive. There is no one way that God communicates TRUTH.

I would add a side note also that in demystifying the way we communicate with God and God communicates with us is only through the neurological gates we call "senses." That is all we have. TRUTH can only be EXPERIENCED! Many Christians are hung up on the power of "cognition" which is a linear construct which heavily appeals to the controlling ego of ours. When we can put "Truth" in a box it is a subtle form of us controlling God and us "proving" God. Truth cannot be proven. It can only be experienced. Cognitive control of truth is an illusion that keeps our egos very happy.

I have found that "Cognitive Christianity" is usually devoid of "HEART" and clinically dead. That kind of Christianity cannot experience God intimately and in a Father-Son/Daughter bonding. It is the same disease the Pharissees suffered from.

[lone gone]

Actually the Pharisees were the experiential bunch and were a reaction to the deadness of the Sadducees.

Another example is the Scholastics of the Medieval Roman Church which gave rise to the Reformation, or the Dead Orthodoxy after the Reformation which gave rise to Pietism, Or the stuffiness of Pietism which gave rise to the New Awakening and Methodism,   etc etc etc.  

Much of what we "experience" is subject to many forces we are not even aware of and which color the experience.

God isn't Human and dosen't behave the way we think He ought to.

While Christ is the God/Man, he doesn't behave the way we think He should. He is like a blank coloring book drawing. We have the outline and then we add the colors of meaning to the image. That is where we all start disagreeing.... we all see the colors ( meanings) differently to suit our individual tastes, needs, and biases.

[theresearchpersona]

Actually the Pharisees were the experiential bunch and were a reaction to the deadness of the Sadducees.

Another example is the Scholastics of the Medieval Roman Church which gave rise to the Reformation, or the Dead Orthodoxy after the Reformation which gave rise to Pietism, Or the stuffiness of Pietism which gave rise to the New Awakening and Methodism,   etc etc etc.  

Much of what we "experience" is subject to many forces we are not even aware of and which color the experience.

God isn't Human and dosen't behave the way we think He ought to.

While Christ is the God/Man, he doesn't behave the way we think He should. He is like a blank coloring book drawing. We have the outline and then we add the colors of meaning to the image. That is where we all start disagreeing.... we all see the colors ( meanings) differently to suit our individual tastes, needs, and biases.

How postmodern of you.

If for one see Him quite clearly as the not-blank pages of Scripture reveal Him. Of course God's thoughts are higher than ours, and His ways higher than ours, but the one's He has revealed, those we can trust, and believe, and know: we needn't see a blank page, or fuzzy Christ; He's not defined as we see Him, nor, however, does this mean that truth does not have various applications/significances, and yet it has one meaning (well, except when the writing is punning terms and words! Those are always fun and yet irritating simultaneously!); when people see various, validly drawn-out significances/applications, fine, but they still need ensure they're getting them from the correct meaning, and that they're actually valid significances. It's not wrong for someone to say "what does this mean to me" in the sense of "what significance does this bear on my life", but it is when they merely mean "to me, this is saying, or 'this means'" when it is not what it means.

This isn't just a new problem, either, it is one of the things that keeps conservative, believing, etc. denominations separate: denying whatever particulars that aren't liked though they're plain (it's like this guy who was heavily involved in CRU, which is arminian: they taught him how to study inductively, and while applying that to Romans they inadvertently converted him into a Reformed fellow before even knowing what that means, and he had to leave).  I'm not one arguing for wishing a bunch of institutions should become one, either: that's Rome's ideal, and under her awful spiritual tyranny at that: and anyone that ever advocates such ideals in history, it is usually found, has the same kind of awful ideals, and often with a vision that things be under their own "authority".

I do agree things can be colored, we have different backgrounds, etc., but your description smacks of denying the Spirit's role in teaching us all things, which teaching that those who love the truth receive. We needn't forget that teaching, that the Church is being conformed to the image of God's Son, or that the Spirit is leading the sheep in just that. Of course people can't see the same when they're carnal, but the spiritual man judges all things, and compares spiritual things with spiritual: it is possible for Him because of God's Spirit's indwelling: we needn't reduce all to naturalism.

[saved]

...been just wondering what you guys think about God's will for our lives.

Ora et labora.  (I'm thinking I should change my logon, as this has become quite my motto lately.)  We pray, and then we get up and do the best we can with what we've got.  If we screw up, God's grace is bigger.  And sometimes we hit a sweet stretch and know we're walking down the right path.

God is sovereign, His Will will be done.  I'm just along for the ride.

I've always felt that if we really, truly are willing to be obedient, no matter what God's will is, then He will make it clear to us, in whatever manner He feels like using.  I do feel it's important to be willing to be obedient... even if His will is something mundane (and it usually is), to get up and go do it.

I don't know too many people who hear an actual audible voice, and I think hearing one would be kinda scary.  But sometimes I know God's will as clearly as if He had used a voice... other times it's clear as mud.  I pray, I discuss it with my spouse and others, I read scripture, I go take a bath... eventually the small, still voice gets heard in the depths of my spirit, or the rightness of a decision becomes patently obvious... or time runs out and I make my best guess and go with it.

I do find, for myself, that there's something deep in me that is out of sorts if I learn toward one decision, and at peace when I lean toward another.  This, I feel, is that "still small voice" I've read about it.  It's not a 'voice', really, so much as a sense of peace and rightness countered with a sense of unease and unhappiness.  Since I've found that sense comes from God, I've found it to be absolutely trustworthy, even with decisions that don't seem logical or sensible... if that's what the Holy Spirit is prompting, that's what I'll do.  And even if, in the short run, things don't seem too smooth (such as my decision to marry a man who is as opposite from me as one can be) and I'm in a place where I'm crying out to God, I'm not saying, "Oh, Lord, I screwed up!" I'm saying, "Oh, Lord, why did you have me marry this man?"  That is, I don't doubt the decision, even as I take the resulting problems to God.  In this case, as the relationship deepened and grew I was able to see blessing after blessing that God poured on me because of the perfect spouse He put me with.

is there really a way to be in fellowship with God while we are here on Earth?

Yes, I think so, although it's not going to be a mountaintop experience every day (or at least, it's not for me).

Part of my testimony (you can read the whole story in Hellos and Testimonials) is that I'd prayed the Salvation Prayer at least a dozen times while my GC friend peeked out the corner of her eye, wondering if I'd prayed.  Finally, at a conference, I told her I'd prayed that prayer.  "Then you're saved!" she said.  No, I wasn't, and I knew I was missing something, and was unhappy and depressed and lonely and miserable... I knew plenty of church history and hymns and scriptures, but none of the love, joy, peace that was supposed to be part of the deal.  Well, that would be, in part, because of my occult past and demonic influence...  Anyway, salvation wasn't so simple, but God worked and Satan got booted and I finally got saved.  Oh, man!  Glory, halleluia and WOW!  To go from possessed by evil to possessed by the Holy Spirit... day and night!... from empty to filled... from lonely to never alone again... from hell to heaven!!! 

So, to me at least, the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life is powerful, real, and precious.  I don't speak in tongues (well, there was that one time...), and wouldn't call myself a Pentacostal, but yeah, I get to fellowship with God, here in earth, and WOW, what a privilege we Christians have!

Thanks for an opportunity to remind myself of how awesome it is....