Depression in GCC

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[Linda]

the anti-pastor post above

Anti-pastor post? What in the world? I missed that one.

The original post had to do with critiquing this teaching:

"I've never met anyone who's struggling with depression who isn't focusing too much on themselves and who wouldn't get better almost instantly if they weren't so self-focused and would just serve others." and "Don't wallow in your own self-pity."

Depression is not a sin. The cause of depression may or may not be a sin. The reaction to depression may or may not involve sin. Not wallowing in self-pity and serving others may or may not be the right response to depression. It depends on the cause of the depression.

The point is not to be "anti-pastor". My point was to say that it is profoundly unwise to issue blanket statements about how to deal with depression without knowing the specifics. No one needs Job's comforters.

[EverAStudent]

   Linda, yours was not the anti-pastor post to which I referred and responded.  

The post by someone naming himself "wisemind" directly above my last post stated that pastors should have nothing to do with tending to, counseling, or caring for depressed persons; that is the anti-pastor post to which I was responding.

It stated categorically and unequivocally that only "health care professionals" may help heal the depressed.  In any stripe, that is an anti-pastor post.

Now, as to your comment that depression is an illness and thus not a sin, I do take issue.  You have not provided any evidence for this, and most notably, not from Scripture.  Even secular "health care professionals" will tell you depression is the improper human response to "maladaptive thought" and "distorted values."  By any definition maladaptive thought, distorted values, and improper human responses are sins.  

Of course that does not mean that any biblical counselor worth his salt walks up to a depressed person, thumps them on the skull with a Bible, and screams, "Repent sinner!!!"  Such a cartoon image of biblical counseling (or even of evangelism) is a crime against Christ and an intentional insult to His people.  

When any person seeks out spiritual guidance from a pastor the response has to be face-to-face dialogue in which the pastor has to lovingly engage the other person to open up and discuss what life circumstances have intruded so brutally as to weigh down this child of the Lord.  From there they work together using discussion, Q&A, homework, Bible study, short term covenants, role reversals, and reaction rehersals to help train the person what godly behavior looks and feels like.  The pastor arms the sufferer with tools, experience, successes, and Scriptures.

The problem with turning a believer over to secular health care "professionals" is that secular professionals do not believe that any problems are spiritually based.  In fact, in many instances of which I have first hand knowledge, the professionals tried to convince the person that it was their insane belief in the supernatural that was the root of their sickness, in effect, telling the person that faith in Christ is the root illness behind their depression, guilt, anxiety, or anger.   The end game is to convince the suffering individual that there is no afterlife judgment to come, so no reason to feel guilt and no reason to try to live up to impossible standards of holiness.  That's the cure!?!?

No, depression is the maladaptive thought process to life problems that can best be addressed for the believer by biblical counsel with a well trained and godly pastor.

[Linda]

I read wisemind's comment, "Thus, it is best to approach a mental health professional - not your GCC pastor," as meaning someone who was trained in mental health issues. The statement was not "anti-pastor", but saying that "GCC pastors" are not the wisest choice. I agree.

I feel bad that this thread has moved away from the point of the original post which was a comment about teaching given at Faithwalkers that suggested serving and thinking about yourself less could cure depression. I suggest a move to the Moribund Equine for further discussion on depression, meds, who is qualified to counsel, etc. I am not interested and will bow out of this discussion.

To clarify, I did not say depression was an illness. I said depression is not necessarily a sin. I stand by that.

Of course the tricky bit in all of this is "What is the definition of depression?"

Carry on...

[araignee19]

depression is a very real and serious illness

From an atheistic world model is it not true that every "sin" is just a form of mental illness requiring only the care of mental health professionals?  
Nonetheless, from the Scriptures is there any biblical basis for saying depression is an illness and not a spiritual issue?

Now, as to your comment that depression is an illness and thus not a sin, I do take issue.  You have not provided any evidence for this, and most notably, not from Scripture.  Even secular "health care professionals" will tell you depression is the improper human response to "maladaptive thought" and "distorted values."  By any definition maladaptive thought, distorted values, and improper human responses are sins.  

Whoa there now. Since when is depression a sin?

Spiritual issue, sure, but not a sin. I'd say the burden of proof that depression is a sin according to the Bible is on you for this one. I can't think of a single example where the Bible calls depression, or even sadness, a sin. Nor can I think of a time when God, disciples, apostles, or anyone else for that matter told a depressed person their depression was a sin. Oh, except maybe Job's friends... and I believe they are typically considered to have been quite wrong in just about all they said.

If anything, I would say depression is like anger. "In your anger do not sin," implying the anger is not a sin on it's own. I suspect depression is in the same category.

[Ned_Flanders]

Saying depression is a sin is like saying bleeding to death from a self-inflicted gunshot wound sustained while committing suicide is a sin.  The act of killing yourself is sinful.  The damage caused by the sin is not. 

[Linda]

For those battling depression or even discouragement, here is a link to a helpful John Piper sermon on Psalm 42. Interestingly enough, the Psalmist begins and ends depressed.

Of the 6 things the Psalmist does to work through his depressed emotional state, none of them involve thinking about himself less or serving more (as stated in the Faithwalkers talk).

http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/spiritual-depression-in-the-psalms

[arthur]

It's not just depression that GCx has a funny view on. It's mental health in general.

I once went to one of the parenting conferences with my wife, while we were still expecting. We had every intention of preparing ourselves to to things the right way. We came away convinced that harsh discipline was the correct response to "defiance" and "disobedience".

Funny thing about these ideas... they don't work if you have a child with ADD or Aspergers or Autism, or any of a dozen other conditions. They make things worse.

Same with depression. When you're facing it, and you're told over and over that it's in "your power" to change, and you cant, all you feel is guilt and hopelessness, and you wind up in some very dark places.

Don't mean to Hijack the thread, but rather to expand it.

PS - it seems that Mark Darling is going to be headlining at a "Parenting Conference" this year. MY advice is to stay away from it.

[crp87]

Depression is a complex problem that can involve chemical imbalances, previous conditioning, incidents of past abuse, previous abuse, any collection of unfortunate events and perceived failures- real or imagined. To say depression is a sin is far beyond ignorant. Even to compare depression to sadness is questionable. Some people who suffer from chronic depression need nothing beyond a simple, SSRI antidepressant to lead completely normal, relatively depression free lives. Some people have suffered from abuse, neglect, etc for their entire lives. None of this is sin. Depression is not the same as being sad. It's not an emotion. It is a complex mental state. It is a part of life for some people. Depression is like any negative force outside of our control. It can lead us to sin. But calling depression a sin- seems to me- to be a form of discrimination and a huge and inexcusable form of ignorance in this day and age. And I am fully aware people can use this issue as an excuse for any kind of self-serving behavior. That is hugely unfortunate, but does not invalidate any sincere depression experienced by anyone.

With much of the doctrine employed by gcx and many other christian establishments the only consistent sin that I have observed is telling anyone suffering for any mental health issue that it is within their power to change if they are repentant. Schizophrenia is a mental illness that requires medication to be managed. I know, lots of christians say it is not an illness but a form of possession, evil thoughts, the effects of an unrepentant lifestyle, drug abuse, or way too many other things. But people far more educated in the areas of biology, anatomy, and psychology don't agree and recognize it as an illness that can be diagnosed by real medical symptoms and can be controlled with medication and therapy. The same is true of depression. Epilepsy used to be considered a product of sin. We've moved past that prejudice.

I'm sorry if I am rambling but this is an issue that is near to my heart. Depression is something I have struggled with my whole life. I've known people who have struggled with it, and even lost friends because they were not encouraged to responsibly seek out the care they needed. It is never right to tell someone who is in crisis that they could fix their problems if they had more solid faith.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I knew at least one "core" person at GC who believed that mental illness was most likely demon possession.   

[BrokenyetFree]

I appreciate and can identify with crp87's post.  I have also been through depression.  I have some family members and friends who have dealt with it as well.  After leaving GCC, I realized that had minor/moderate symptoms of depression the majority of my time at the church.  Now, I can thankfully say it’s being dealt with through therapy and medication (both of which have been helpful for me).  I have complete peace about using both (though I know by GCC standards, medications are discouraged by leadership - it did take a little effort to get over the stigma of not using them). 

I wanted to share some common “thought distortions” associated with depression.  In my experience at GCC, these ways of perceiving the world were exemplified in their teaching and encouraged.  So many of them resonate with my experience at my previous church.  I’ll share a few that I’ve been working on overcoming.  I’m so thankful they’re changing! They are distorted and harmful ways of viewing the world.  Here goes!

1.   All or nothing thinking: you see things in black and white categories.  If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure.
    a.   GCC sees many things as black and white.  Their beliefs are not up for discussion or questioning.
    b.   The Bible and its commands are entirely black and white…not measuring up to commands and not seeing the Bible their way is “wrong”.  They see it as entirely literal. 
c.   I experienced perpetual guilt and feelings of failure during my time with GCC.  With my perfectionist nature, there was never enough I could do to feel good enough. 
2.   Jumping to conclusions – Mind Reading
    a.   Since leaving, I’ve realized that much of GCC teaching is inferred.  If you’re in the core group, you “know” what the leaders mean by certain phrases.  You also get the idea from leaders whether you’re measuring up to their standards or have leadership approval (though it might never be said aloud). 
    b.   In my healing, I’ve had Christians I trust listen to some GCC teaching, and they see it differently than I do.  I see the deeper meaning, the things unsaid, what’s inferred by their words.  When I take time to explain the teaching and the pastors’ beliefs, then other Christians see the negativity. 
    c.   After getting out the system, I’ve had to battle “mind-reading” the thoughts of my family and friends.  Most of the time, my perceptions are inaccurate, but I got used to reading between the lines at GCC and it’s been a process to change that pattern.
3.   Should statements: you try to motivate yourself with should and shouldn’ts, as if you had to be whipped and punished before you could expect to do anything.  “Musts” and “oughts” are also offenders.  The emotional consequence is guilt. 
    a.   GCC emphasizes making commitments to many things (prayer, daily quiet time, church and Bible study and prayer meeting attendance, discipling others, tithing 10%, life commitment to your local church, seeking counsel, submitting to authority, guarding your heart…and the list goes on).  If any of these rules are not followed, guilt ensues. 
    b.   God is viewed as a disciplinarian.  They teach that He puts specific situations in your life until you learn your lesson (i.e. if you “struggle” with patience, He’ll continually bring up situations in your life where you have to be patient until you learn your lesson and change). 
    c.   I experienced perpetual guilt during my time with GCC from the "shoulds" I wasn't doing faithfully.   
4.   Labeling and Mislabeling: Instead of describing your error, you attach a negative label to yourself.  Like, “I’m a loser”. 
    a.   I attached many labels to myself.  Some negative, some positive (mostly negative though ☺).  i.e., I’m prideful, selfish, etc.
    b.   This labeling didn’t only apply to negative labels.  Once you establish yourself as a committed member, many labels are attached to you.  After leaving, I make a list of over 100 “labels” both given to me and ones that I placed on myself.  Those were the definitions of me.  Many were “good”, but I felt trapped by them and unable to show my real personality or change without people wondering why I wasn’t the person they expected me to be.  I’ve been able to break free since leaving, show my actual personality, and no longer have labels of who I’m expected or perceived to be.  There are a few characteristics I can use to describe myself and my personality (but it’s more like 5-10 instead of 125 ☺). 

(the source I used for the thought distortions is http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/cognitive_distortions.html, but there are many other examples of the same thought distortions online…the bullet points following the distortions are my own thoughts - sorry that the bullet points didn't come out as neatly as they did on my Word document:))

Anyway, knowing these thought distortions or misperceptions of the world have been very helpful for me.  It’s taken work to identify and combat them, but I have so much more joy and happiness now.  It’s like a burden’s been lifted.  Identifying these thoughts, talk therapy and medications have helped me to overcome feelings of depression.  These thought distortions still pop up at times, but my other symptoms of depression are gone.  Life’s not hopeless anymore!  I hope this is helpful to others.  I believe many people at my old church were depressed…some of my friends even admitted it.  It breaks my heart (especially after my own struggles) to know they're hurting and caught in the system without hope of improving while they’re at that church.

Also, none of the health professionals that I've seen have come at depression/treatment from a Christian perspective.  I think religious counselors/trained Christians professionals can be helpful, but after my very negative church experience, I trust trained non-Christians more.  I believe that God has greatly used these non-Christian professionals in my life to help me improve.   

Sorry for the length of the post.  This topic is one I'm passionate about. 

[Linda]

Anyway, knowing these thought distortions or misperceptions of the world have been very helpful for me.  It’s taken work to identify and combat them, but I have so much more joy and happiness now.  It’s like a burden’s been lifted.

This really resonated with me. GCx is masterful in their use of fallacies and thought manipulation.

I homeschooled for 26 years and early on in my homeschooling, I read a book that said something like "Math was invented by God so to honor God, you don't need to use a math book with "Christian" story problems, you need to find a book that teaches math concepts clearly and accurately." That idea stayed with me.

Transferring that idea to fallacies and thought distortions, it seems to me that the person who can most clearly show how thinking is distorted and help people undo bad thought patterns is the best source for help.

For example, Robert Lifton, as far as I know isn't a Christian, but his work on "thought reform" and "brainwashing" has been of great help to people caught in shepherding/high control groups. Similarly, understanding fallacies and propaganda techniques high control groups use is of great value. These are things that are not specifically addressed in the Bible.

Make no mistake, I believe prayer and Bible reading/knowledge are key in overcoming groups like this, but the thing that tripped me up more than anything was my "faulty" thinking patterns and those answers were found in the writing and counsel of people who were able to show me how my thinking was flawed.

[swampwitch]

Hello to Ned, and I hope you are all staying warm. I have not been online much over the past year due to health issues, and Ned, I'm sorry I did not reply to your reply to my question about everyone's opinions of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. I became so hurt and disgusted over the whole campaign, on both sides, that I did not even want to have any conversations about it online. I did vote for Jill Stein, who was probably in jail during the week of the election.

This thread on mental health and GCC really hit home, and especially Ned's observation,  "I've said here before that I think something was broken in our lives to attract us to the controlling, shame-based, legalistc, cult environment that GCx too often was.  No, I'm not saying it was all your fault, if this desciribes you or anyone else."

When I was 17 years old, two days after I graduated (with honors) from high school, my mother, my three younger brothers, and I had to leave our home in the wee hours of the morning in fear for our lives. During that year, I had pulled my father off my mother when he tried to strangle her, and intervened very often, if only to create a diversion, to keep him off of her after he came home drunk and enraged in the middle of too many nights. I had to drive the 8-10 hours to southeast AR, because my mother was too heartbroken and upset. I wore my sunglasses the whole time so she could not see me crying.

From the time I was two years old, my father beat me black and blue, verbally abused me, and when I reached puberty began to sexually harass me in ways I don't want to go into here. I saw my brothers bullied and beaten as well, and pretty much lived in terror for most of the time I was growing up.

My marriage at 19 and subsequent involvement with the church were desperate attempts on my part just to find a safe place. There was no safe place in the world for me - not then, and not for a couple of decades after that. Now that I know more about trauma and its effects, I realize that the screaming nightmares (in which I was being chased by a man trying to kill me), the powerful emotional flashbacks (I was terrified when men showed any anger at all, and could not even check out at the store if a man was the cashier), the constant sense of impending disaster, etc., were symptoms of PTSD.

About seven years ago, after even more trauma and damage, a dear friend paid for my therapy with a counselor who is a Christian. I was diagnosed with Complex PTSD, which is now included in the DSM 5 (yeah, I think they quit using the Roman numerals). It is caused by long periods of stress and abuse from which there is no escape. No fighting, because that would have been too dangerous, and no fleeing, because where would a three-year-old, or even a 12-year-old go? No, there was only freezing and appeasing, and I was dangerously good at both. Dissociation and loss of time (no memory, at all, of certain events), and of course, the inevitable self-medication. I was quite fortunate that my neuro-chemistry did not lend itself easily to addiction.

Cognitive behavioral therapy was the main tool this counselor used, and over a period of two years or so, I was able to change my brain, basically, and get some healing and peace. It was so hard, and so frightening, but for the first time in my life, I am not walking through a hostile universe with a heart like an open wound.

So yes, I was vulnerable to recruitment into GCC, and it is possible that I may have been safer there than in other situations in which I could have found myself. A number of the saints in our group came from backgrounds in which there was very damaging abuse and abandonment, and one brother suffered from what I now realize was bi-polar disorder.

We were all, even the elders, so young and confused, but so wanting to do the right thing, the good thing, the thing that would save our own lives and everyone else's. Many of us were damaged and broken, and a verse from proverbs has always resonated with me - "To a starving man, any bitter thing is sweet." So I have to agree with your statement about our vulnerability, Ned, and certainly, there is no shame in it. Only sadness at the ways in which we hurt one another as a result, not understanding that we were surrounded, always, by love and mercy, and that love always casts out fear.

[Ned_Flanders]

Hi Swampwitch,
Thanks for appreciating my comments.  I just sent you a PM. 
Ned

[jcrash27]

That is actually funny that you mention that.  I was a member of the Grand View University Campus Fellowship and attended the Downtown Church.  I left the church in 2010 after only 2 years actually.  I found out in 2012 that not only do I have Bipolar Disorder, but I also have Borderline Personality Disorder, Psychosis, and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.  Also, I have Asperger's.  I received very little mental health treatment at the time.  I was just on an anti-depressant, and if you know anything about people with bipolar, you know that anti-depressants usually cause mania.  I was manic a lot and depressed a lot.  I was constantly advised to stop relying on what very little medication I was on and to start relying on God.  If I spent more time praying and reading the Bible, I would find relief.  I was also supposed to see a "Christian Counselor" that was just a church member that knew nothing about psychology, but felt qualified to tell me that there was nothing wrong with my brain, there was something wrong with my soul.  I felt that because I suffered from mental illness and required medical intervention that I was a second class citizen to already being considered a second class citizen as a woman.  I wasn't allowed to lead any Bible studies or prayers.  I got reproved all of the time because of my mental illness.  In fact, during that whole time, I was suicidal multiple times and required multiple hospitalizations.  When you are treated for mental health in a psych ward, doctors do not have the time to evaluate you like a regular psychiatrist would, so they basically look at the medications you are on and adjust them.  At least that is all my doctor did every time, and I saw the same one every time I was in the hospital.  I was miserable the whole time.  Also, I should mention that I am gay.  I was romantically involved with another female member of the church.  I was actually not totally aware that I was gay at the time, and the female member I was involved with initiated it and basically used me.  Later, she felt guilty and decided to out me to all of the church leaders.  My life was even worse after that.  I made the decision to leave not too long after that, and nobody from the church would talk to me.  I moved two hours away from the church and my family, and I was so alone.  It was a very awful feeling.  I know some people are at odds with homosexuality at the moment, but from all of the studying I have done, I find that God loves me as he created me.  I have 8 Bibles in different translations that I study and it is funny because sometimes I feel each one is telling me something different.  They take the Bible very literally without considering the context and the time period for which it was written.  When I would complain about certain practices that I was uncertain about, they would tell me to point out in the Bible where they were wrong, but no matter what I used as an argument, it didn't apply and they were faultless.  It was crap.  Also, they specifically targeted freshmen at Grand View since they were alone and were looking to fit in somewhere.  It pissed me off so much.  I also got reproved for having a job.  If I didn't have a job, I could not afford to go to school and buy the necessary things that I needed.  I was told God would provide, and I said, He already did provide.  He provided me with a job and the ability to work.  That didn't go over well either.

Sorry, I started writing about one thing, then kind of just jumped all over the place with this.  I just never really got any of this out for others to see, just my partner and my therapist really know about it.  I will say that what GCM does and what they do at Walnut Creek is spiritual abuse and that ties in with mental and emotional abuse.  I am still suffering from the scars that I was left with during my 2 years with GCM in Des Moines.  It almost completely literally sucked the life right out of me.  In fact, nowadays, I don't really attend a church.  I weary of some pastor telling me their interpretation of scripture, when I am perfectly capable of reading them and understanding them for myself.  I will not allow myself to get caught up in another "church" that demeans and degrades me and makes me feel like s***.  During my time at Walnut Creek, I actually felt farther away from God than I did before becoming a member and after leaving.  Walnut Creek Church is not only a soul-sucking parasite, but a life-sucking one, too.  I'm glad that I made it out of there alive, literally.

[Huldah]

Jcrash27, welcome to the forum. I'm very sorry about the abuse you experienced at GC. You will find that many of us here can identify with the experience of being criticized and reproved unjustly during our times at GC. It was always so hard, if not impossible, to measure up. I'm glad you found your way out.

[margaret]

Welcome jcrash27.  I'm sorry for the abuse you suffered, and hope that through this forum, you will find some comfort and validation like I did.

[trthskr]

Thank you for posting, jcrash.  As a pharmacist it super pisses me off when those idiots try to tell people to stop taking their medication. Bipolar depression is not a joke.  You deal with struggles that no one else could even imagine.  Depression is real too.  There is nothing wrong with taking medication to balance out your chemistry.  I can tell you are in a better place at least mentally now that you are away from the group. 

And as Christian, it super pisses me off that those idiots have turned you away from the church.  Please take your time to heal from the pain that may have been caused to you by that group ( I did) but keep faith that eventually He will lead you to a group that you can experience fellowship with again (I did) 

I'll be praying for you.  PS I'm from Des Moines, too. Moving away from there is the best thing you did for yourself!

[FeministRebel]

I lived with a pastor and his family for a while... and he gave me such grief over having depression, and going to therapy, or needing meds. He did this to another student, too. In fact, I was so depressed at one point, that I struggled to pick up my apartment I rented from him, and he threatened to put all my belongings outside in the trash because he claimed I was just selfish and in disobedience to god.

Not that I think messiness is great, or shouldn't be addressed, but this was solely threatened on me because of my depression - a previous student leader lived there, and she was extremely messy, and had no depression, and was never threatened with anything and allowed to live there for a long time. The mess was never a big deal breaker for them... and they'd even pleasantly joke around about it!

The man would say extremely passive aggressive things all the time, and he was very selfish and inconsiderate toward his pregnant wife. Of course, looking back on it, I see now she'd snap at me over trivial things because she was obviously miserable. I wouldn't want to be some submissive wife at home, with hardly a say on many things, picking up after an insensitive, inconsiderate oaf, that doesn't pick up his own weight... and having seven kids. I think she had depression... because when I lived there, she was on kid number 5, and she was already quite depressed about having yet another child. Maybe that's why he was so awful to me. Projection of his own frustrations in his marriage.