Does keeping silent = keeping friends in GC?

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[Rebekah]

We left a couple of years ago and still have friends in GC. People knew we left, but we didn't ever tell any leaders *exactly* why we left or all the problems we saw. We just kind of slipped out the back.

Of course, we haven't been completely silent (case in point!), but we didn't have those tough conversations either. Lately I've been wondering if the only reason we still have those relationships is because we didn't speak up.

What's your experience?

[EverAStudent]

We told only the elders we were formally severing ties.  After the midnight gestapo visit by the elders to inform us we were committing the sin of divorce (because they saw us as "married" to the assembly) we experienced absolute silence: shunned by all friends and all family members. 

[Linda]

I had forgotten about your midnight gestapo visit, EAS.

I had a noontime visit from a pastor (9 months after we left and when my husband wasn't home) hand delivering a letter of rebuke. It was very odd, but not as odd as a midnight visit.

My experience is pretty well documented, but the bottom line is that we went to our church for 10 years and were heavily involved several days a week. I thought I had made some true and lasting friendships. I was wrong. Of the people currently in GC, we have one lasting relationship (and by that, I mean people who know what is going on in our life on a regular basis).

I'm glad I post by name, but also understand why people don't. I figure that if people don't like me because I don't think it's right for "men to give the controls of their life to the men God works through", then they have some serious theological issues they need to work on. Still, it hurts.

[AgathaL'Orange]

At the time of leaving, we honestly thought we were leaving over simple doctrinal differences because after addressing the culty stuff, they told us that all of those problems had been corrected.  As time progressed after we left, we realized that we had been totally sucked in.  It was a "Stockholm Syndrome" kind of thing.  As that time, we didn't really know how to go back and say, "Oh, now we see you are a really unhealthy church!"  Most people quit us anyway, so there really aren't friendships per se.  Now, it's been a few years, and we REALLY don't know how to go back and say, "Wait, you still do the things you said you didn't do anymore!"  We were far to trusting and gullible.  Now we're just sort of clueless as to how to make anything change.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Wait, what?  Midnight Gestapo visit?  That's right!  I completely forgot about that.  EAS and Linda, the GC leaders coming to your house was wrong on so many levels. 

[Linda]

I agree it was wrong, but oddly it was helpful for me. When we were thinking of leaving, I had read M2Z and had heard about all the unannounced elder visits. The paranoid me thought that was going to happen to us and friends kept saying, "That will never happen, things aren't that weird." Then, when it happened, well after we left, I thought, "Yeah, things are pretty bizarre there." I'm assume most people attending, and probably some of the current elders are unaware of the visit and letter...unless they read this forum.

[Immortal_Raven]

To a certain extent, keeping silent does keep friends, at least in my particular case.  A couple differences though.
-My wife and I were never technically members, never signed anything, never officially members. 
-We also moved out of the city due to my wife's student teaching assignment.  No mention of doctrine or church loyalty, just a mention of this is where our life was headed.  Their main concern was that there was no GCx church where we were moving.

I still talk with a few of the guys from that church and most of the ones I talk to have moved on since then as well.

My wife still talks to many of the families that are still involved.  Those families think that if we still lived near them, we'd be attending the GC church.  I think we didn't get an elder visit because we didn't bring up their doctrine, and we weren't actually members.  Also, the elders at my church were still reeling from Paul Willis' letter of resignation/withdrawal and didn't want to come across any worse than they already had.  And for the record, Paul is an awesome guy.  A little intense at times, but very nice and a good friend.

-Immortal_Raven

[puff of purple smoke]

Does keeping silent = keeping friends in GC?

To put it a better way, does speaking out = losing friends in GC? Absolutely. If you are critical of GC you will not have any part of it, and this means the people of GC. It's as simple as that. Commitment and survival of "the movement" are way more important to them than your friendship. Think of how many new people were always coming and going from GC. It will hurt YOU a lot more to leave GC than it hurts for them to lose you. They have a support group of GC "friends", they have people telling them they are in a "spiritual family", they have pastors counseling them to spend their time on people in the group and not people outside of it. It may bother them for a few weeks to lose you but you will be quickly replaced as new recruits are brought in, and the busy schedule of social activities soon make you nothing more than an ancient memory. People are replaceable in GC. Fact. You will be forgotten and probably slandered too.

Is it worth losing your "friends" in exchange for the freedom of escaping GC? For the freedom of speaking the truth about the group? For the freedom to live a life as YOU feel you should live, based on your PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD and not just doing what somebody in GC tells you to do? Right after leaving I remember being very conflicted about this. I was glad to escape the group. I was finally free to be able to say what I really thought about certain sermons. I could form my own opinions about secondary Christian issues without condemnation/condescension for not towing the GC party line. On the other hand, losing so many friendships that I thought were meaningful, at once, caused me significant mental turmoil. How could "friends" act that way? For me, the period after leaving GC was a very dark time for me. Being able to vent on the forum with other former members helped me, gave me something to focus on while I worked out what had happened and why.

GC wants you to be attached emotionally and socially to their members precisely because it's hard for you to leave that way, and they can cultivate obedience and submission to leaders. Why would you rock the boat with so much social pressure in place? This is why it's so important to WARN PEOPLE BEFORE THEY JOIN! It's so much easier to never join at all than to leave after you've become attached emotionally to them. This is precisely why there needs to be information available about the group online.

[Linda]

On the other hand, losing so many friendships that I thought were meaningful, at once, caused me significant mental turmoil. How could "friends" act that way? For me, the period after leaving GC was a very dark time for me. Being able to vent on the forum with other former members helped me, gave me something to focus on while I worked out what had happened and why.

My thoughts exactly.

[calgal]

My exit was a bit more dramatic.  I was having marriage problems - and my husband at the time was a leader in the church/cult and the other leaders were 'counseling' us with no improvement.  I sought an 'outside' christian therapist which was taboo and whom suggested a trial separation.  I was still on the fence until my husband came to me and informed me "God spoke to me and told me that from now on, he wants me to do all the thinking for you."  I told him to pack his bags.

What took place over the next few days:  My husband called an all night prayer vigil to cast satan from me.  I received horrible voicemail messages on my v/m "You are from Satan ... " type which eventually became increasingly more threatening so I filed a police report and turned over the tapes.  Several church members came to my house the first day and chased me around the house, trying to lay hands on me.  I had to jump on my kitchen table, reach for my phone and I called the police.  It was out of control. 

My then husband made ZERO attemps at reconcilation and only sought to become a martyr for the church and got his ultimate wish: pastorship.  After all, he was married to the church anyway, not me!

Divorce is sin and a broken propisition ... but we were broken anyway.  I have a much more fullfilled life now.  What is the saying: it is better to be alone than in a relationship and lonely?


Calgal

[AgathaL'Orange]

Calgal, that would have been so frightening!

Puff, I thought this summed up the GC method of control well.

GC wants you to be attached emotionally and socially to their members precisely because it's hard for you to leave that way, and they can cultivate obedience and submission to leaders. Why would you rock the boat with so much social pressure in place?

  In this way, it's a little like leaving your family (or actually a lot like).

[Rebekah]

Calgal, oh my! That sounds really scary. I'm so glad you got the police involved and that you sent the guy packing. Good for you!

Puff, what you said about speaking out meaning you lose friends is probably more accurate. Thanks.

This forum and gcmwarning.com have really helped. Before and after we left, we'd talk to a few other people about the problems, but it wasn't until gcmwarning.com started that I could be, like, "Ok, I'm not crazy. This stuff that I saw was really happening."

[G_Prince]

My exit was a bit more dramatic.  I was having marriage problems - and my husband at the time was a leader in the church/cult and the other leaders were 'counseling' us with no improvement.  I sought an 'outside' christian therapist which was taboo and whom suggested a trial separation.  I was still on the fence until my husband came to me and informed me "God spoke to me and told me that from now on, he wants me to do all the thinking for you."  I told him to pack his bags.

What took place over the next few days:  My husband called an all night prayer vigil to cast satan from me.  I received horrible voicemail messages on my v/m "You are from Satan ... " type which eventually became increasingly more threatening so I filed a police report and turned over the tapes.  Several church members came to my house the first day and chased me around the house, trying to lay hands on me.  I had to jump on my kitchen table, reach for my phone and I called the police.  It was out of control. 

My then husband made ZERO attemps at reconcilation and only sought to become a martyr for the church and got his ultimate wish: pastorship.  After all, he was married to the church anyway, not me!

Divorce is sin and a broken propisition ... but we were broken anyway.  I have a much more fullfilled life now.  What is the saying: it is better to be alone than in a relationship and lonely?


Calgal

That's Insane!

[Huldah]

I left suddenly, without fanfare, and without explaining my reasons to anyone. I went home for spring break from college, and then just didn't show up again when spring quarter started.

It wasn't honorable or courageous of me to do it that way. I should have been more open and honest about my decision. All that can be said in my defense is that I was very young (about 20), horribly scared (of God, of the deacons, of my own reactions), depressed, and confused. I just wanted out.

I joined the army shortly after leaving, but I still considered myself to be a quasi-member of SR (my GC church). Apparently they thought so, too. Some of them wrote to me while I was in the army. I've never forgotten the kindness of those who took the time to write, including one or two who joined GC after I left and never even met me in person. So, because I kept silent, yes, I was allowed to still have friends at SR. Thirty years later, I've lost track of them all, but their letters still warm my heart.

After several months of this, my closest friend at SR was suddenly excommunicated on the flimsiest of excuses. (Her story is told in M2Z.) When word apparently got around that I was siding with her, everyone else stopped writing to me, but that's just as well. It would have been too painful to stay in contact with them any more.

[BTDT]

It wasn't honorable or courageous of me to do it that way. I should have been more open and honest about my decision.

I hope you're not being too hard on yourself.  That may very well have been the best way to leave, and the "easiest" on you.  Not that I think it was easy, by any means, but if you had been more open about your decision, you likely would have been even more hurt, and probably had an excommunication of your own to deal with.