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Author Topic: Don't Be Afraid of Them  (Read 21390 times)
DarthVader
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2018, 05:29:19 pm »

Hey GodTrumpsAll - thanks for engaging with me on this topic - much more "fun" that the other topic that's been consuming most of everyone's mindshare, yes? I think my initial response to Luis was probably the clearest statement of where I am at  "I'm really torn right now as I love my church, love my pastors, and if I could pick it up and drop it under the EV Free, PCA, or Converge banner, I'd probably stay forever..but I see no redeeming qualities in GCM as a denomination.  It was started by very flawed people who thought they knew better than everyone else and has been recovering in fits and starts from that birth, which has been hindered because there are still a lot of those who think the good old GCM days were just fine and we should get back to them (shudder)"

So I have a lot of common ground with the church I attend, but have very little common ground with the denomination it is affiliated with - I don't think this is an uncommon position to be in Christendom btw.  

And just to clarify, no, I was not - at all- saying GCM churches have hurt more than they have helped.  Others on this board, who are coming from a different experience might.  What I was saying is a bit more nuanced - ALL churches hurt people - we all agree that churches are made up of flawed people who hurt people.  What I was saying is that GCM is a relatively small denomination yet has an ex-member forum and has been labeled a cult.  There are much bigger denominations which we (ECC churches) seem to think are doctrinally fine when we use their pastor's material in our churches (Piper, Converge), Tim Keller (PCA) Chuck Swindolll (EV Free) so these denominations clearly aren't off in their understanding of the gospel, they are way larger, yet they don't have ex-member forums and haven't been mistaken for cults - it's worth asking why isn't it?

I'm a numbers guy so to put it in numbers terms (with totally made up numbers for illustration purposes only), if 100 people attended an EV Free church, some absolutely will have a bad experience, call it 5, which means 95 had a good experience.  My impression is if 100 people attend a GCM church 10 might have a bad experience.the majority, 90 are still having a good experience (yay!)..but at the same time the number of people being hurt is 2X that of another doctrinally sound church.  Again, those numbers are completely made up to be illustrative, but the existence of ex-member forum, being labeled a cult (or cultish to coin a word) means something especially when other churches whom we largely agree with on doctrine don't have an ex-member forum or get mistaken for cults. It's not a complete story and there are two sides to every story but to say it means nothing or it means we are doing something right (boo-ya??), is to miss a growth opportunity.

I've been at an ECC location (not the "main campus") since 2003, so, clearly, this forum isn't my only source of info on our churches. Last Sunday I taught kids in church, next Sunday, I'm on coffee duty.  The issues I have with GCM (I'd go further than to call them gray areas though) largely don't impact me day-to-day, because in our church location (and I'm sure many others), the pastor happens to be a servant-hearted humble man trying his hardest to serve God (as I said, he's my best friend) and who doesn't adhere tightly to the "party line" on a lot of topics - and yes, we've had versions of this conversation, but being able to write things out (and get feedback from others) helps me refine my viewpoint.  Will it lead to my leaving - it could; and that would be hard as I have many good relationships, so right now what I'm trying to assess is living with the imperfections (in my view) of GCM and just enjoying serving at my local church (which I do) the right course, or is leaving to a more (in my view) doctrinally/structurally sound denomination the right decision - I'm sure God will reveal the right course of action, with time, prayer and through others.  Thank you for helping play some part in that Smiley  - Respectfully, DV
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 06:06:43 pm by DarthVader » Logged
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 06:28:42 pm »

We attended for 8 years.
Taught Sunday School regularly.
Did GCLI.
Were head youth leaders.
Small group leaders.
Participated in music and teaching in the main service.
Were close friends with the main peeps at the church.
Helped clean the church.
Did all the marriage conferences, HSLTs as leaders, regional youth team meetings, men's retreats, women's retreats.

We didn't leave over hurt feelings.  We left over theology, at the time for a reason that wasn't GC's fault at all.  We just wanted to go to a church that had a different tenet.  No biggie, right?

Well, I'd always had nagging issues that I ignored.

The pastor told my husband to stop reading books and that he just needed the Bible. (If you know my husband who minored in Greek for a hobby and loved loved loved and still loves reading and studying, this is like telling a fish to ride a bike.)

When we asked questions about theology and met with pastors to glean better understanding, the pastors couldn't answer them.  Major tenets of the faith.  Major issues.  They didn't know the answer.  They had to refer to the "theology guy" in a completely different city and brought out a paper he'd written. That was a red flag among many other red flags.

Asking for us to commit to the church in ways that aren't the norm.

People were told they couldn't move away or shouldn't move away.
  
One woman who left because she "wasn't getting fed" was mocked behind her back because you don't need more than the Bible.

And then the organization wasn't there.  No background checks were done.  I know at least one case where no liability insurance was had and it ended up being catastrophic in a situation.  There was no formal structure.  No real order. Yet still top down directives but with no safe formal backing.

People were openly burned out.  One guy used to say, "I'll just do the taxes like I do the sound like I do all the other stuff around here."  And he was right.  He did a LOT.  And that was the way it was. The lay people were relied on in ways that were not conducive to any sort of life outside the church other than work.

The teaching often centered around unity or obey your leaders.  

People cancelled out retirement accounts and announced it publicly for a building campaign.  

We were to discuss with our pastor any time we wanted to get therapy. (not his place)

Women had no meaningful role, which would have been helpful in catching some of the vulnerabilities in the structure.

When asked "Without congregational input, how do you decide things?"  The answer was, "Usually everyone agrees."  But this wasn't true.  And we sat and watched as many studious members left, one after another.  But we stayed.

My husband was encouraged to change his bookish, scholarly personality to one of outgoingness and zeal.

There were constant messages (You can get the idea up on the Pastor's Wives Newsletter even today) for women to be constantly available to their husbands for sex.

Women were talked of as serving their husbands and families. Literally, "As I serve my family."  And it wasn't in a churchy serve way.

Brilliant women were relegated to roles of quiet, menial service.

Women were taught to adapt to their husbands to make the marriage harmonious.

The pastor did not want to let us ever out of any retreats.  Ever.  They were expected even in light of serious really, and I mean, REALLY serious reasons not to attend.  If I say them, I will identify myself.

But still we stayed.



And then, one little theological issue came up.  We couldn't rectify it with the church.  The church had no good answer.  A major tenet of evanglical Christianity, and they couldn't answer it.  We went to our pre-GC childhood pastors and they rattled out arguments and wrote with us and discussed in depth.  In fact, GC even offered to wink at this theological issue anyway, which is cool of them, honestly, but very strange because if churches are against this, they are AGAINST THIS.  But we really wanted to attend a church that believe this thing wholeheartedly.  And so we left.



AND THEN.

The scales fell from our eyes in a big way.  All those things we'd ignored, looked over, they became so clear once we were in "regular" churches again.  We spent an entire summer visiting everything from African Methodist Episcopal Churches to E Free to Lutheran to Anglican to Orthodox to Catholic, you name it.  It was a highlight of my entire life.  I just wanted to be exclusive and insular no more.  My heart was aching to be connected with the worldwide body of Christ.  I was aching to find unity in the Creed.  To find my place in the great history of the church.  

And we began to notice our entire lives had been in that church.  And of course we had family who we became even more close with.  Our family actually moved near us.  It was such a delightful time of refreshing freedom and connection with parts of us we hadn't even realized that we had let wither a bit.  We had no social connections.  No friends.  And the church members did not stay our friends.  Even though we had done nothing wrong and we hadn't accused them of anything wrong, these dear, close friends whom we'd eaten with, shared vacations with, studied the Bible with, they never came around again.

We began to remember all of the things we'd had little twingy thoughts about.  And it was oh so clear, we'd been duped by well meaning, goodhearted people who are in a very unhealthy church structure.  

The first Sunday I'd attended I thought it was a cult.  And 9 years later, I entered, "Great Commission Church Cult" into Google.  And there were hits.  I got the books.  I read the articles.  I ordered info.  I studied and then all of a sudden other people started appearing.  And people with stories far more damaging than ours.  And because I was intimately connected with core people, unfortunately I saw a lot of not so good things happen as more trickled out.  Again, all damage was done by well meaning people.  Not evil people.

It's not as cut and dried as people make it out to be.  No one is all good or all bad.  GC is both good and bad.  And so am I.  But the serious issues were harmful and the more distance I gained, the more the spell was broken.  I began to uncover the roots of my shame and guilt.  I began to process my shudders when someone would read Paul's epistles.  I began therapy for the second time.  This time without getting chided for not getting pastoral approval.  We could choose how to spend our days.  We spent them running in the evenings.  Cooking slow dinners together.  Getting to know people and socializing. We travelled.  We joined a new church that was connected with church history.  I felt alive for the first time in years. I can still smell the blossoming trees during that time because it was spring and all of the goodness came together.  Spring.  Freedom.  Blossoms.  Beauty. Candles in worship.  Prayer.  Saying the Nicene Creed.  There was so much to learn and uncover in Christianity.  We read and studied and worshipped like never before.  It was one of the best years of my entire life.


The shame was gone.  The guilt was gone.  Our marriage thrived. I no longer longed for my husband to be more dominating because no one was telling us he should be.  I was no longer feeling bad about not being submissive because no one was telling me I should be.  No one was at retreats telling us of the incredible sexual needs of our husbands and how it was up to us to meet those needs so he wouldn't go elsewhere.  No one was expecting me to make piles of food for events.  No one had claim to our weekends. No more nights and weekends alone with the kids as my husband went to the seemingly endless retreats and times away.

He dug into our family like never before.  Devoted himself to us like never before.  

We've never regretted leaving.  We have many times regretted attending.  Were the people lovely?  Oh gosh yes. Are they able to be "friends" like you think of "friends"?  No.  They are not.  And that investment of 8 years into something that ultimately left us empty is a regret I'll always have.

I still have several friends from there, mostly people who were children I'd had the privilege of knowing and adoring while teaching at GC.  I'd welcome others.  I don't hate anyone or want anyone to suffer.  But I also know that I'm lucky and I got away with less damage than some. And I still had significant damage.  Some things are really triggery for me.  It's been only recently that I've been able to even go on retreats, listen to certain music, listen to certain Bible passages, even attend an Evangelical church without getting fidgety and angry.  

A lot of people won't get it.  They'll think, oh that was nothing.  You're overreacting.  You're bad. You're divisive. That's normal.

I'm here to tell you, it wasn't normal.  It was something.  I'm not overreacting.  I'm not bad.  I might be divisive.  Smiley  But not intentionally.  I have an activist spirit, so I tend to want things to be fixed or smoothed over or explained or made right.  I'm deeply allergic to cruelty, although I've certainly been cruel at times, which was wrong of me.  

But that's how people can attend and still have questions.  I don't think it makes someone bad.  I just see a lot more room for freedom and a lot less room for shaming, berating, chiding, and minimizing.  Theology matters.  It matters that leaders intimately know church history, doctrine, tenets of the faith, and WHY they believe what they believe.  This is crucial.  Christianity is a root of education in the world.  We printed the Bible as soon as humans learned to print and then taught people to read it.  We were people of learning.  We studied and have had scholars and monks and faithful stewards who copied the Bible over by hand for centuries.  We have a story, and we're all part of it.  No more isolation for me.  No more DIY or reinventing the wheel.  There's a Church that's been thriving for 2000 years, and it's accessible to all. It's the summation of history and worship, and it's not, in my opinion, the sole property of any church but is the bride of Christ. The worldwide church.  We are not married to denominations or pastors or associations.
 

We are part of a much bigger story.  When given the choice, I'll choose THE STORY every time.  I'll never again attend a church that doesn't appreciate the centuries of theological wrestling that has occurred during that time from the councils to the scholars to the seminaries.  I'll never attend a church that is not ready with an answer for the tenets of their faith.  People died for this faith.  Study it.  Know it.  Defend it.  Protect it.  

So glad to be free.  I hope everyone feels as free as I do.  It's a gift.  
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 08:13:48 pm by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

Glad to be free.
UndividedDevotion
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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2018, 06:49:20 pm »

I am a current member of GC, but I don't think that it is productive or helpful to anyone to gloss over the weaknesses of GC churches or GC at large. I personally find the attitude of "you should leave if you don't wholeheartedly agree with every aspect of your church" that I am seeing from some GCers as really concerning. Iron sharpens iron. It reminds me of Proverbs 15:22 "Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed." The thing is, a diversity of opinion is healthy and helps to reveal the areas that require attention. It is a good thing for us to be challenged in our opinions and to be critical of our entrenched biases.

It is difficult to hear about the ways that people have been hurt, but I do think that this forum and the experiences of the people who post here are extremely valuable. I personally think that GC has a lot of cultural, theological, and structural areas in which they could improve, my church too. It doesn't mean that I don't love my church. I think that part of how I love my church is by being honest with my leadership and by being diligent in prayer, especially about the things that I disagree with. God is sovereign and I think that he can heal and redeem even the parts of the church that seem the most hopeless to me.



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HughHoney
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2018, 07:14:14 pm »

Quote
It's not as cut and dried as people make it out to be.  No one is all good or all bad.  GC is both good and bad.  And so am I.

Thanks Agatha. Similar thoughts over here. Really nice write up.
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Shamednomore
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« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2018, 07:26:36 pm »

Agatha, you have moved me to tears.  I have so many scars from my experiences within GC, but I still want to be a part of THE STORY.  In a healthy church.  Thank you for sharing.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2018, 07:29:53 pm »

Welcome, Undivided Devotion.  It's healthy to examine.  I think you hit the nail on the head with something you said.  

Plans fail for lack of counsel,
    but with many advisers they succeed.

When I was there, these counselors were taught to be ALL from the same source - my GCx church.  I'm not kidding you, Christian friends and family, or pastors outside the church were not considered "wise" counsel.  I know personally of such people even being rebuked for getting involved.  But this was usually done behind closed doors so others had no knowledge.

Thank you for your gracious input.






« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 07:37:39 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2018, 07:35:18 pm »

I agree with others.  That was so captivatingly and wonderfully said, Agatha. 

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For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
G_Prince
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2018, 07:57:51 pm »

We attended for 8 years.
Taught Sunday School regularly.
Did GCLI.
Were head youth leaders.
Small group leaders.
Participated in music and teaching in the main service.
Were close friends with the main peeps at the church.
Helped clean the church.
Did all the marriage conferences, HSLTs as leaders, regional youth team meetings, men's retreats, women's retreats.

We didn't leave over hurt feelings.  We left over theology, at the time for a reason that wasn't GC's fault at all.  We just wanted to go to a church that had a different tenet.  No biggie, right?

Well, I'd always had nagging issues that I ignored.

The pastor told my husband to stop reading books and that he just needed the Bible. (If you know my husband who minored in Greek for a hobby and loved loved loved and still loves reading and studying, this is like telling a fish to ride a bike.)

When we asked questions about theology and met with pastors to glean better understanding, the pastors couldn't answer them.  Major tenets of the faith.  Major issues.  They didn't know the answer.  They had to refer to the "theology guy" in a completely different city and brought out a paper he'd written. That was a red flag among many other red flags.

Asking for us to commit to the church in ways that aren't the norm.

People were told they couldn't move away or shouldn't move away.
  
One woman who left because she "wasn't getting fed" was mocked behind her back because you don't need more than the Bible.

And then the organization wasn't there.  No background checks were done.  I know at least one case where no liability insurance was had and it ended up being catastrophic in a situation.  There was no formal structure.  No real order. But yet still top down directives but with no safe formal backing.

People were openly burned out.  One guy used to say, I'll just do the taxes like I do the sound like I do all the other stuff around here.  And he was right.  He did a LOT.  And that was the way it was. The lay people were relied on in ways that were not conducive to any sort of life outside the church other than work.

The teaching often centered around unity or obey your leaders.  

People cancelled out retirement accounts and announced it publicly for a building campaign.  

We were to discuss with our pastor any time we wanted to get therapy. (not his place)

Women had no meaningful role, which would have been helpful in catching some of the vulnerabilities in the structure.

When asked without congregational input, how do you decide things?  The answer was, usually everyone agrees.  But this wasn't true.  And we sat and watched as many studious members left, one after another.  But we stayed.

My husband was encouraged to change his bookish, scholarly personality to one of outgoingness and zeal.

There were constant messages (You can get the idea up on the Pastor's Wives Newsletter even today) for women to be constantly available to their husbands for sex.

Women were talked of as serving their husbands and families. Literally, "As I serve my family."  And it wasn't in a churchy serve way.

Brilliant women were relegated to roles of quiet, menial service.

Women were taught to adapt to their husbands to make the marriage harmonious.

The pastor did not want to let us ever out of any retreats.  Ever.  They were expected even for really, and I mean, REALLY serious reasons.  If I say them, I will identify myself.

But still we stayed.



And then, one little theological issue came up.  We couldn't rectify it with the church.  The church had no good answer.  A major tenet of evanglical Christianity, and they couldn't answer it.  We went to our pre-GC childhood pastors and they rattled out arguments and wrote with us and discussed in depth.  In fact, GC even offered to wink at this theological issue anyway, which is cool of them, honestly, but very strange because if churches are against this, they are AGAINST THIS.  But we really wanted to attend a church that believe this thing wholeheartedly.  And so we left.



AND THEN.

The scales fell from our eyes in a big way.  All those things we'd ignored, looked over, they became so clear once we were in "regular" churches again.  We spent an entire summer visiting everything from African Methodist Episcopal Churches to E Free to Lutheran to Anglican to Orthodox to Catholic, you name it.  It was a highlight of my entire life.  I just wanted to be exclusive and insular no more.  My heart was aching to be connected with the worldwide body of Christ.  I was aching to find unity in the Creed.  To find my place in the great history of the church.  

And we began to notice our entire lives had been in that church.  And of course we had family who we became even more close with.  Our family actually moved near us.  It was such a delightful time of refreshing freedom and connection with what we hadn't even realized that we had let wither a bit.  We had no social connections.  No friends.  And the church members did not stay our friends.  Even though we had done nothing wrong and we hadn't accused them of anything wrong, these dear, close friends whom we'd eaten with, shared vacations with, studied the Bible with, they never came around again.

We began to remember all of the things we'd had little twingy thoughts about.  And it was oh so clear, we'd been duped by well meaning, goodhearted people who are in a very unhealthy church structure.  

The first Sunday I'd attended I thought it was a cult.  And 9 years later, I entered, "Great Commission Church Cult" into Google.  And there were hits.  I got the books.  I read the articles.  I ordered info.  I studied and then all of a sudden other people started appearing.  And people with stories far more damaging than ours.  And because I was intimately connected with core people, unfortunately I saw a lot of not so good things happen.  Again, all well meaning.  Not evil people.

It's not as cut and dried as people make it out to be.  No one is all good or all bad.  GC is both good and bad.  And so am I.  But the serious issues were harmful and the more distance I gained, the more the spell was broken.  I began to uncover the roots of my shame and guilt.  I began to process my shudders when someone would read Paul's epistles.  I began therapy for the second time.  This time without getting chided for not getting pastoral approval.  We could choose how to spend our days.  We spent them running in the evenings.  Cooking slow dinners together.  Getting to know people and socializing. We travelled.  We joined a new church that was connected with church history.  I felt alive for the first time in years. I can still smell the blossoming trees during that time because it was spring and all of the goodness came together.  Spring.  Freedom.  Blossoms.  Beauty. Candles in worship.  Prayer.  Saying the Nicene Creed.  There was so much to learn and uncover in Christianity.  We read and studied and worshipped like never before.  It was one of the best years of my entire life.


The shame was gone.  The guilt was gone.  Our marriage thrived. I no longer longed for my husband to be more dominating because no one was telling us he should be.  I was no longer feeling bad about not being submissive because no one was telling me I should be.  No one was at retreats telling us of the incredible sexual needs of our husbands and how it was up to us to meet those needs so he wouldn't go elsewhere.  No one was expecting me to make piles of food for events.  No one had claim to our weekends. No more nights and weekends alone with the kids as my husband went to the seemingly endless retreats and time away.

He dug into our family like never before.  Devoted himself to us like never before.  

We've never regretted leaving.  We have many times regretted attending.  Were the people lovely?  Oh gosh yes. Are they able to be "friends" like you think of "friends"?  No.  They are not.  And that investment of 8 years into something that ultimately left us empty is a regret I'll always have.

I still have several friends from there, mostly people who were children I'd had the privilege of knowing and adoring while teaching at GC.  I'd welcome others.  I don't hate anyone or want anyone to suffer.  But I also know that I'm lucky and I got away with less damage than some. And I still had significant damage.  Some things are really triggery for me.  It's been only recently that I've been able to even go on retreats, listen to certain music, listen to certain Bible passages, even attend an Evangelical church without getting fidgety and angry.  

A lot of people won't get it.  They'll think, oh that was nothing.  You're overreacting.  You're bad. You're divisive. That's normal.

I'm here to tell you, it wasn't normal.  It was something.  I'm not overreacting.  I'm not bad.  I might be divisive.  Smiley  But not intentionally.  I have an activist spirit, so I tend to want things to be fixed or smoothed over or explained or made right.  I'm deeply allergic to cruelty, although I've certainly been cruel at times, which is wrong of me.  

But that's how people can attend and still have questions.  I don't think it makes someone bad.  I just see a lot more room for freedom and a lot less room for shaming, berating, chiding, and minimizing.  Theology matters.  It matters that leaders intimately knowing church history, doctrine, tenets of the faith, and WHY they believe what they believe.  This is crucial.  Christianity is a root of education in the world.  We printed the Bible as soon as humans learned to print.  We studied and have had scholars and monks and faithful stewards who copied the Bible over by hand for centuries.  We have a story, and we're all part of it.  No more isolation for me.  No more DIY or reinventing the wheel.  There's a Church that's been thriving for 2000 years, and it's accessible to all. It's the summation of history and worship, and it's not, in my opinion, the sole property of any church but is the bride of Christ. The worldwide church.  We are not married to denominations or pastors or associations.
 

We are part of a much bigger story.  When given the choice, I'll choose THE STORY every time.  I'll never again attend a church that doesn't appreciate the centuries of theological wrestling that has occurred during that time from the councils to the scholars to the seminaries.  I'll never attend a church that is not ready with an answer for the tenets of their faith.  People died for this faith.  Study it.  Know it.  Defend it.  Protect it.  

So glad to be free.  I hope everyone feels as free as I do.  It's a gift.  

Honest, sincere, true. Thank you. I'm so happy you've found a place to flourish.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
GodisFaithful
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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2018, 08:10:14 pm »

Thanks for sharing your story, Agatha.

I love you to pieces and I've never even met you.

So much of it I relate to.  The pressure to be ultra "committed" to the point of burn out.  My husband in meetings all the time and  him feeling depressed because he didn't measure up to some kind of nebulous standard of cool dudeness for leadership, geek that he is. His depression lifted almost immediately when we left.    

Leaving GCx did open up a new world. We heard speakers outside the GC curcuit. Very refreshing. And books, I'm a reader.  I like studying theology.

Gradually our eyes were more opened to the unhealthy aspects of GCx  and how it had affected us.

We left when our kids were pretty young, or I think we would have more regret.









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DarthVader
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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2018, 08:50:30 pm »

Thanks so much for sharing Agatha.  It has gotten better in relation to openness to outside teaching - I was introduced to Tim Keller (whose teachings I LOVE) by a book study of The Reason for God we did at my ECC location, but still a ways to go.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2018, 08:56:36 pm »

Thank you everyone so much for your kind replies.
Have a great night, everyone.
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Glad to be free.
Boggs
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« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2018, 09:16:33 pm »

Wow Agatha, thank you for your heartfelt writeup of your experiences not just with GC, but with the global church and your own journey. It blessed me.
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Katniss
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« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2018, 09:48:41 pm »

DV- Amazing, articulate I could go on and on about how much I agree & appreciate your post! Thank you for being a voice of reason to some of the internal flaws of the GC overall structure. I would love nothing more than to see GC make some serious changes toward more accountability & be willing to dialogue with people like you, who have good ideas that would really do some good for them as an organization. I will also add my two cents in here that I believe many of the problems plaguing GC are coming from the locations which the lead pastors were shepherded under the original founders. I believe that is why many of the issues brought up here are not going on at every location because the “new” guys were never trained under the “old” guys if that makes any sense. Great points, thank you!
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blonde
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« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2018, 01:53:55 am »

I find it amazingly interesting that Jeromy Darling is ALWAYS pointing his Evergreen finger at us. We are bots now. WOW! Thanks for the info Mr. #MeToo a Mr. Clone of Mark Darling.
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-Mahatma Gandhi
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« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2018, 02:01:43 am »

Get off this forum Jeromy and ask your dad to man up and go to GraceNet, reveal his sex addiction.

How about this Bible-bot for you and your dad:

 1 Corinthians 6 New International Version (NIV)
Lawsuits Among Believers

6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!


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We must become the change we want to see.
-Mahatma Gandhi
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« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2018, 07:47:24 am »

Katniss I believe you are right... and thank you too, DV!

Because there have been comments here of questioning why some here don’t just leave their GC church if they disagree, or how on earth GCM could be so wounding, I think it’s worth reiterating that this is a movement that drills into its members to plant their flag and die. And so, to remain part of and cleave deeper to our local body of believers—a group of people which for some may have been the first social group to show love to them, to accept them as Jesus does—we did plant our flags. We gave our whole hearts. We forged a deep social bond, emotional connection, and identity in this body of believers (and of course our identity is ultimately in a Christ, but as part of the body).

Leaving isn’t as simple as walking out the door. It’s saying goodbye to an entire life. It’s goodbye to the years invested in that church, and perhaps even remorse over the sway and influence over major life decisions that occurred in that time period that might have turned out differently were others have spoken into our lives. And it’s usually goodbye to dear friends who have been with us through some of the most powerful, God-inspired moments of our lives. I say this last sentence because for me, and others here, relationships did end, despite efforts on my end to maintain them. My best guess, and I hate assuming for others, is that people took it personal because they were so identified with their local GCM church. Problems with the church meant problems with them, which was not at all the case.

Anyway, all that goes to say, I’m sure most on here would attest to the powerful work God did in their lives and others while they were at GCM. And once the honeymoon phase ended, and the discomfort with certain preferences made “law” set in, there was nothing but a painful set of choices ahead for each of us.

Praying for all involved in this particular situation, and those on this site.

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DarthVader
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« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2018, 08:51:02 am »

Great thoughts Katniss and PrayingforTruth..The only reasons I stay are 1) close relationships with friends 2) All the bad stuff that can happen in a GCM church (or any church but more easily and more often in GCM churches) doesn't negatively impact me day-to-day...a distant third is maybe I can help make things better in some small way, but I'm realistic about that.

The current crisis ECC is in could precipitate my departure.  I don't have to agree with any decisions that are made, but I do have feel good about the integrity of the process by which any decision is made (but please - please - ECC supporters let's not debate that on this thread..many other places for you to post away).
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pvitartas
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« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2018, 05:53:26 pm »

Katniss I believe you are right... and thank you too, DV!

Because there have been comments here of questioning why some here don’t just leave their GC church if they disagree, or how on earth GCM could be so wounding, I think it’s worth reiterating that this is a movement that drills into its members to plant their flag and die. And so, to remain part of and cleave deeper to our local body of believers—a group of people which for some may have been the first social group to show love to them, to accept them as Jesus does—we did plant our flags. We gave our whole hearts. We forged a deep social bond, emotional connection, and identity in this body of believers (and of course our identity is ultimately in a Christ, but as part of the body).

Leaving isn’t as simple as walking out the door. It’s saying goodbye to an entire life. It’s goodbye to the years invested in that church, and perhaps even remorse over the sway and influence over major life decisions that occurred in that time period that might have turned out differently were others have spoken into our lives. And it’s usually goodbye to dear friends who have been with us through some of the most powerful, God-inspired moments of our lives. I say this last sentence because for me, and others here, relationships did end, despite efforts on my end to maintain them. My best guess, and I hate assuming for others, is that people took it personal because they were so identified with their local GCM church. Problems with the church meant problems with them, which was not at all the case.

Anyway, all that goes to say, I’m sure most on here would attest to the powerful work God did in their lives and others while they were at GCM. And once the honeymoon phase ended, and the discomfort with certain preferences made “law” set in, there was nothing but a painful set of choices ahead for each of us.

Praying for all involved in this particular situation, and those on this site.



Eric Hoffer’s “The True Believer” (A Psychology of Mass movements) helped me understand my feelings after leaving Solid Rock (Columbus, Ohio, 1978). In one of the few times I believe the Holy Spirit literally spoke to me, this scripture came to me as I was walking home near OSU North campus,  “and a smoldering wick’ He will not put out.”  My self esteem was so low, I clinged to the Proverb “a live dog is better than a dead lion.”
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2018, 06:55:54 pm »

Wow, pv, you were pretty low. 

I'm curious if our library has that book. Never heard of it. 

A friend of mine who is out now has told me about all the weird stuff they do with switching small groups around.  Manipulating. Controlling. We didn't have that where I am from, back in the day, but it might be that way now. Pastor knows best.

Just found that verse, it is in Matthew too: "he will not break a bruised reed" is also part of it.

And some people think there is no such thing as spiritual abuse.  They are blind.

It's good to hear your voice here again, pv. What does your name mean?
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pvitartas
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« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2018, 02:55:32 am »

"The True Believer" (A Psychology of Mass Movments) is a secular book.  Ironically, it was brought to my attention by my supervising teacher when I student taught many years ago.

The book helped me understand WHY I was so low.  I recommend it for anyone who is recovering.

I was pretty low indeed!  I think most of us were who were "sold out for the Lord" and who were subsequently excommunicated or were asked to leave.  I gave up my college (I returned and finished after leaving), outside relationships, I earned just enough to live at poverty level in order to devote my time to "The Lord"...sadly, my story was all too typical. 

The ripple effects of the cult trauma surface from time to time in my life.  The cult has had long term effects on my marriage and family life, as well as my personal spiritual life.  Further, I still struggle with what we used to call in Solid Rock, "redeeming the time..."  To this day, I have a difficult time relaxing and having fun - without some measure of tugging guilt.

I have read "apologies" from current GCXer's on this forum.  They open fire with both barrels with a "compassionate and loving" shotgun.  Then when the damage is done, they back off and apologize.  I get this; i.e, the guilty apology, or the apology out of guilt.  I don't really buy the apologies, it is more that I feel sorry for them.  In my opinion, the apology is given because of guilt, and not because of sorrow. 
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