Drake University Campus Fellowship

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Drake Freshie]

Hi y'all,

I was hoping to get some current information about the Campus Fellowship (Alive) organization at Drake. I'm a freshman there and have been hearing a little about this group. Is it a good group to get involved with while I'm at Drake? I've been checking out the posts here and I've seen some bad and some good. Is there anybody that is currently involved that would care to give me some information on it?

Thanks,
Drake Freshie

[Linda]

This group is part of Great Commission Churches. They participate in national events like Faithwalkers. Rather than asking people currently in the group what they think, or people who left the group what they think, I suggest you listen to what the group teaches. Listen to local messages. Listen to national messages like Faithwalkers.

Do you think it is Biblical to commit to a church or movement of churches for life? If so, this group may be for you.

Do you think that you should submit all life decisions to elders who were appointed by elders who got their authority from a man who in 1970 founded a movement by basically declaring himself an apostle? Do you think that these elders who trace their authority back the man who started this movement always speak for God and all you need to do is do what they say? If so, this might be a good fit for you.

Do you enjoy conditional friendships? If you ever leave the group your friends won't have time for you. They will be too busy working for the movement. But, if you like that type of friendship, I suggest you join this campus group.

Do you enjoy being in groups that think they are better than other groups and think that unity in the church means never questioning anything, but just doing what your elder tells you to do even if you think it is wrong? If that is the kind of group you enjoy, then check them out, by all means.

[Linda]

Also, do you like secret societies, secret teachings, exclusive clubs, and inner rings? Did you enjoy being a part of a high school clique? If you did, this group might be just what you need to make that transition from high school to college.

[G_Prince]

Hi!

Linda pretty much covered it (Your conciseness was impressive Linda!) so I don't have a lot to add. In short, stay away. The Drake campus fellowship might seem edgy, cool, and a lot of fun at first, but it is a bait and switch. They are actually extremely legalistic and will give you guilt trips like you've never experienced. I have friends who go there who have had multiple emotional breakdowns due to this group's overbearing and manipulative policies.  I'm sure there are many other fine Christian organizations at Drake that won't try to monopolize all your free time for church related activities or tell you who you can and can not date. Any option is a better option. Good luck!

[AgathaL'Orange]

We've had former members (and a current member's blog) discuss how the group encourages people to drop out of school or to stay in Des Moines or to change career plans to devote more time to the movement.  Des Moines and Drake should be a catalyst for growth and change in your life, not necessarily an end in itself.  You are at Drake for college.  In my opinion, use these years to prepare the foundation for the rest of your life.  It's all to easy to give that up and join up with the fever pitch of this group.  You might find yourself still there ten years from now wondering, "Now why am I here again?"

[used2be]

Do you enjoy conditional friendships? If you ever leave the group your friends won't have time for you. They will be too busy working for the movement. But, if you like that type of friendship, I suggest you join this campus group.

I can vouch that this happens. When I moved away for personal reasons, some people that were close to me were counseled by a pastor's wife to stop being friends with me and I was accused of a lot of things by these very same people that I thought were my good friends. And I was still planning on returning to the church when I could as well as financially supporting staff members in that church. I still considered myself a member of that church at that point but I was not treated as such because I had chosen to be somewhere else geographically for a period of time. With that said, there are a few people in the church that I am still pretty good friends with. So it's not everybody that will quit being your friend if you leave but it will happen, and often with the involvement of the leaders.

[trthskr]

Go to InterVarsity.  They are normal and help the poor.  Seriously.  Amy is awesome and that group rocks my socks.

Take it from me..I learned the hard way after getting involved with Alive for 2 1/2 years.   Please save yourself from that insanity. 

Definitely get involved right away though!  It's too easy to let your faith slide while in college. 

[stellan]

HI-  I AM NEW TO THIS SITE AND WAS VERY INTERESTED IN THE SAME QUESTION.  THIS IS FROM A MOM'S PERSPECTIVE, THOUGH.  MY NEW DRAKE STUDENT SEEMS VERY INTERESTED IN THIS GROUP.  I'M WORRIED IT'S FOR THE FEELING OF BEING PART OF GROUP (HE WAS LEFT OUT A LOT IN HIGH SCHOOL.)  I REALLY DON'T WANT TO INTERFERE BUT BESIDES THE OBVIOUS REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN MENTIONED IN POSTS, I'M WORRIED ABOUT HIS AVERAGE GRADES DROPPING FURTHER DUE TO INTENSE INVOLVEMENT.  HOW IS THE GROUP WHEN IT COMES TO KEEPING UP GRADES.   THANKS SO MUCH, ANYONE.   

[Follower of Christ]

Hello, I happened upon this website while Googeling the Downtown Church (DTC). I currently attend the DTC in Des Moines. As for the education aspect of things, I started attending the DTC while I was a medical student at Des Moines University Medical School. It did not negatively effect my own education. In fact, it likely contributed to it, having the support of other believers as well as weekly Biblical teaching. If you want details, I was accepted into the medical school honor society Sigma Sigma Phi while actively involved with the DTC and am currently a resident doctor. 

I've attended the DTC about 5yrs now. I'm terribly upset that they haven't told me about the secret societies, secret teachings or exclusive clubs! Nor have they demanded that I do something even if it's wrong. On the contrary, I do not know how the messages could be more Biblical with passages presented in context. From first-hand experience, the church body at the DTC is certainly passionate about following Christ and living out Biblical principles. In John 13:35, Christ said, "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." With all the faults of the DTC (which I'm sure it has like any church body), I have not been to another church body where this love is more evident than at the DTC.

Looking at the blogs, it's interesting to note that the same individuals are leaving negative comments on multiple forums: Linda, AgathaL'Orange, etc. I love you guys, but consider carefuly who you are against or you may find yourself attempting to fight what God is doing. Mark 9:38-41

If you really want to know what the church is like. Come visit us. We'll indoctrinate into the "secret society."  Now we'll see how long  my posts and my membership lasts on this website.
If you want the rest of the story, include my posts in the discussions.

[MarthaH]

I think it has been pointed out before that different people have different experiences, depending on their level of involvement or level of commitment. There are some wonderful people doing wonderful things within the church. You may be a very good example of someone who is able to lead a very healthy and balanced walk. This forum is intended in part to help people who haven't had a good experience there due to a number of different reasons. I, for one, had a damaging experience there. I am also very glad that you have not (truly, I am).

I would also encourage you to read not only this thread. I have read many of Agatha's posts and see that she has really experienced a lot of pain there. She, like me, tried to discuss things that were harmful with leaders and they did not listen to her. That is a big reason why she left. I was very thankful to read her experience after I left because I felt for a long time that I was the only person who experienced those things. Again, I am glad you haven't experienced the controls that I experienced.

I would also like to hear more of your stories and would offer a civil discourse on issues to discuss the source of our disagreements and perhaps even find common ground as believers in Christ. I have also been out for some time now and am open to the possibility that the practices may have changed and the things which were wrong have been repented of (in addition to the earlier admission that many others, such as yourself, may only have positive experiences to report of).

I have a few questions which I would truly like honest and open dialogue with you. I'm not trying to be inflammatory in presenting these and would welcome your input as a fellow believer.

1. As a physician, you have spent many years in thoughtful and deliberate study in order to best serve people entrusted to your care. Do you think that the Bible is more in depth than a medical book? Point being, if a doctor must train and study for years in order to care for the physical needs of a patient, shouldn't a pastor be required to train in study for years for the spiritual care of a person's eternal soul? What biblical education have the pastors at the DTC attained (B.A.? M.Div.? P.H.D.?)?

2. This may be more personal, but one of the common objections I hear among people disenfranchised with the DTC is the hyper-involvement among many of the members. What does your common week look like as far as involvement goes? I would also like to know if your parents, siblings etc. have ever mentioned to you any concern. Maybe you have stronger relationships with them as a result of the DTC and if so, praise the Lord! Have any of them ever expressed concern over your involvement with the church? Given my experience, I can't imagine a person being a full-time med student and being a committed member of the DTC without having family relationships fall by the curb, but I would like to hear your experience.

3. This question regards the secret organization issue, I suppose. Do members of the church know where the money is being spent? Do members have a say in how it is spent or approve budgets? Do members ever have a say in salaries? How much money goes to one family in the church? You don't have to give specifics. Many people have asked for details and have never been given them. Given that the church has so many members who are asked to tithe (not to mention the endless building projects), it is somewhat perplexing that the congregation is often kept in the dark. I ask, also because a former member was reportedly told by the pastor when they started expanding that his dream was to build a church for each of his sons in Des Moines. Since I won't reveal source, this can be dismissed as hearsay. However, it does show the importance for fiscal accountability. In most healthy churches, budgets in their entirety are brought before the congregation and approved on a regular basis. The congregation knows what comes in and knows what goes out. Does this happen at any of the WCCC congregations? Is this important to you? If not, why not? If someone were to request full disclosure, what would happen?

I am sincere in saying I would like to know your thoughts.
M.H.

[EverAStudent]

Dear Follower of Christ,

Welcome to the forum, that is, if you really want to be welcomed.  It is not often I see someone post with such "subtle" antagonism on a forum in which they want to be taken seriously. 

Nonetheless, I have never seen anyone on this forum removed by the adminstrator for holding opposing viewpoints; nor are their posts deleted.  There have been many posters quite hostile to this forum yet their posts survive to this day, as do their accounts.

I would suspect that as a medical student you never got drawn into the 5 days a week regimine expected of the "core" members (those tapped for eventual leadership in GC).  Rarely were the non-core members as abused as were those of us who were core, frequently leaving them confused as to the anguish the rest of us experienced.  And yes, if GC had any great strength it was the sense of community and closeness they fostered amongst themselves.  So I do see your perspective and appreciate where you are coming from.

Again, welcome.

[Linda]

Follower of Christ,

I do not post on multiple blogs or forums. What are you talking about? And you do not love me, you don't know me.

Are you saying that you find the teaching on commitment for life and submission to elders to be Biblical?

Are you saying that all GCLI teaching is public and not secret? Please direct us to where we may find it.

[Follower of Christ]

Whew! I'll see how much I can reply to. Pardon me if I don't get to everything. Life gets very busy in residency as you can imagine.

I am sorry for the bad experiences some of you have had. You are dealing with humans, still suffering from living in a fallen world corrupted by sin. For those genuinely wronged, I would ask you to forgive the individuals that hurt you. Forgive them seventy times seven. (Mtt 18:22) As the saying goes, you release a prisoner and discover that the prisoner was yourself.

My posts refer to my experience primarily with the church body at the DTC in Des Moines. I won't attempt to speak for the whole Great Commission group of churches. The reality is that there is one body and one Lord over all. Eph 4:4-5 As I'm sure you've experienced, there is a fellowship among God's family that crosses the boundaries man has created. Those who have accepted Christ are sisters and brothers in a deeper sense than even physical biologic family. How so? Because the spirit is eternal while our physical being is passing away. 1 Cor 15:50. Does that mean our biological families are any less important. By no means.

Let me go through your questions MarthaH :
1. Elders and Deacons
As you know, there were no formal seminaries or degrees for the church leaders of New Testament times. Personally, I believe God raises up individuals to shepherd His flock. The requirements of leadership can be found in 1 Timothy 3 and 1 Peter 5 which give qualifications of elders and deacons. Does that mean formal Biblical education is worthless? Of course not. That said, a degree or seminary training is not listed as a requirement and by no means does it  indicate one is qualified for church leadership. Thankfully, the believer has the greatest of Teachers: God’s Spirit.

"Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
"For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."
1 Co 2:12-16
 
I obtained my pre-med degree at a private “Christian” college which had a seminary program.  Honestly, the seminary horrified me in some ways. More than one of the seminary students had failed other majors but thankfully had a subsequent “calling” to be a pastor! I recall one such individual in my prayer group who spend most of his day playing violent first-person shooters against the college’s rules. It was no big deal as long as he could get away with it.

2. Personal Involvement at Church
Depending in part on my call schedule and work, my usual week includes attending a service Sunday morning, possibly going out to eat with fellow believers after church, meeting for a Bible study or sharing, and some sort of hangout on Fridays. I’ll also spend some time with a friend from church once a week. There is certainly plenty to be involved in. I imagine if I wanted to (and had the time), I could probably find something to be involved in every day of the week. If there are individuals doing this at the sacrifice of their family, that is their error. 1 Tim 5:8

My family has not mentioned any concerns, but they do not live in Des Moines. As mentioned, we keep in touch. During med school, I attended weekend services then went to Bible study once per week. No hangouts really due to time constraints. Again, my family and I stayed in touch during med school with the occasional weekend trip to my parents.

3.Finances
As for the financial side of things, I can only give a limited answer from my experience. We receive statements in the mail about what we have given and what it went towards in terms of general categories (e.g. moving forward campaign for building, college ministry, etc) Beyond that, I can’t say. That said, much of my ease of giving comes from seeing the character and lives of the individuals in leadership. To put it simple, I trust them because they have proven themselves. Dan Rude, as an example, continues to work besides balancing time with family, pastoring and reaching out to the lost. He would be the first to admit that he fails at times, but from what I have seen, his life is above reproach.


Teachings and a statement of faith of WCCC, the DTC and GCC are available on their web sites. See the links below. My guess is you will not find “all” the teaching of any church body in one location. It is a sweeping statement.   
http://www.walnutcreekcc.org/about-us/statement-of-faith
http://thedtc.org/who-we-are/statement-of-faith
http://www.gccweb.org/about/beliefs-values

As for teaching on commitment for life and submission to elders, it all depends on what exactly you’re referring to. This is also a loaded question since it implies that these are teachings of great commission churches. That said, here’s my answer.

I will always be a part of the body of Christ for life, whether that means fellowshipping with a group of believers who associate with GCC’s or otherwise. (Rmns 12) There does seem to be an emphasis on commitment to the local church body at the DTC. Previously, a few of the church members indicated that I should consider and pray about staying in Des Moines. I once spoke with Dan Rude about this. He basically said, If you are called to stay in Des Moines, great. Otherwise, go where God leads you.

From Scripture, the role of an elder is to “shepherd the flock of God.” This indicates some degree of authority. It also indicates submission. Consider the passage below.
So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:
shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;  not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.
And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
1 Peter 5:1-5

I better close. My next 2-week rotation is very busy so forgive me if you don’t see any more replies from me for some time.
God bless.

   

[Linda]

I am sorry for the bad experiences some of you have had. You are dealing with humans, still suffering from living in a fallen world corrupted by sin. For those genuinely wronged, I would ask you to forgive the individuals that hurt you. Forgive them seventy times seven. (Mtt 18:22) As the saying goes, you release a prisoner and discover that the prisoner was yourself.

I know you are new here and haven't had time to read through many of the threads. Please understand, we did not leave our GC church because we were "hurt". We left because of false teaching. False teaching should be exposed and corrected. I post on this forum to expose false teaching so others are not misled.

[MarthaH]

Thank you for sharing. I'm glad your experience is a balanced one. Thank you also for recognizing that many people have been hurt by leadership in the church. I have forgiven them and I pray for them. I hope that leadership there grows from the mistakes. I still have deep concerns about certain leaders, but not all of them and have concerns for the system as a whole.

[EverAStudent]

I am sorry for the bad experiences some of you have had. You are dealing with humans, still suffering from living in a fallen world corrupted by sin. For those genuinely wronged, I would ask you to forgive the individuals that hurt you. Forgive them seventy times seven. (Mtt 18:22) As the saying goes, you release a prisoner and discover that the prisoner was yourself.

This is a popular doctrinal misconception in the contemporary church, and is virtually universal in GC circles.  This approach assumes that forgiveness is both unconditionally deserved by "offenders" without the need for their repentance and that forgiveness is principally for the benefit of the one offended.  Both assumptions are biblically incorrect.

Forgiveness is not an emotional release for the victim.  Biblical forgiveness is the pardoning of all obligations owed by the guilty party to make any further efforts at apology, change, or restitution.  All their legitimate obligations are literally released or pardoned upon forgiveness.

In Scripture forgiveness always has these two preconditions:  the guilty party confesses and then turns aside from their offenses (i.e. repents).  At times the Scriptures also indicate they owe restitution to other humans so as to win their full forgiveness and thus restore the broken relationship.

No human will be forgiven by Jesus on the last day unless they first confess their sins and repent.  Forgiveness is conditional on confession and repentance, key elements of embracing saving faith.

What does this have to do with GC?  To be truly forgiven GC leadership must first confess (i.e. confess their bad theology and abusive practices) and then turn aside from them (i.e. stop teaching false doctrines like unconditional forgiveness and start teaching sound biblical doctrine).  How can GC leadership ever hope to obtain forgiveness from their victims without confession and repentance in these matters?  

If you love the previous and present GC leadership you will hold them accountable to confess and repent and pray for their humble turning.

Sound article on biblical forgiveness:  http://thefaithfulword.org/forgiveness.html

[newcreature]

Pardon me if I don't get to everything. Life gets very busy in residency as you can imagine.

I pardon you; and I imagine life gets very busy for many residents of this world.

My next 2-week rotation is very busy so forgive me if you don’t see any more replies from me for some time.

I forgive you; and I hope you find some time for a little R&R in the midst of your very busy life.

[Linda]

As you know, there were no formal seminaries or degrees for the church leaders of New Testament times. Personally, I believe God raises up individuals to shepherd His flock. The requirements of leadership can be found in 1 Timothy 3 and 1 Peter 5 which give qualifications of elders and deacons.

Obviously, there were no "formal seminaries" like ours today, but one must not forget that the apostles of the early Church, had been instructed by Jesus himself. In addition, they were very familiar with their Jewish heritage.

I also believe that there are men who are pastors by gifting of the Holy Spirit and do not argue with the words in Timothy and 1 Peter that you quote. What I ask you is this:

How did all of the men you "submit" to get their "pastor/elder" status? My understanding is they were "recognized" by current elders. Skipping over the part of the Bible that tells us not to do things to be seen by men since that is an entirely different discussion, my next question for you is, "Where did those elders get their authority to appoint elders?"

If you trace it back, you come up with Jim McCotter, Herschel Martindale, and Dennis Clark, circa 1970 deciding they were apostles and elders and recognizing themselves.

They said, "Hey, I have an idea, let's just read the Bible and have church be just like the early church." Like that's never been done before by 1,000 different movements of men who never bothered to really understand the Bible or church history.

[Innerlight]

Follower of Christ,

I no longer post on this site for a variety of reasons, but wanted to respond to the topic of seminary education.  

 As someone who took the plunge and went to graduate school for an MA in theology, I always chuckle when I hear the so-called biblical justification for not having to go to seminary.  The logic is akin to God calling you to any profession (doctor, lawyer, sales or farmer) and obviously you go out and get the best education possible to bring glory to God, but hey, anyone can be a pastor, they just need a calling and inspiration from the Holy Spirit.  Who needs Greek and Hebrew?

My favorite story in this regard is from Dr. Ben Witherington (no theological lightweight) who when asked by a student why he had to learn all the theology and languages, and couldn’t he just go into the pulpit and let the spirit speak to him?  His response, “Why yes Billy, but it’s a shame you’re not giving the Spirit more to work with.” (Witherington, Is there a Doctor in the House?).  So, the question is, why wouldn’t you want to be the best at whatever profession you choose, especially something as profound, not to mention holy, as scripture.  I can only add I spent hours each day and weekends writing, researching, interacting with a study group, personal counseling, etc…no time for video games and goofing around.  It was serious business.  

My personal feeling as to why seminary is discouraged among certain church groups is that many people can’t handle the workload, questions are raised which may not “jive” with a particular church tradition or culture, you may get smarter than the senior pastor (ego’s anyone?) and quite frankly, there are serious doctrinal considerations that fly in the face of established traditions which have to be grappled with (women in ministry, trinity, ancient near east myth, denominational structures, biblical inerrancy to name a few).  

Finally, Paul and the writers of the NT, in particular the Books of John, Romans and Hebrews, wrote intellectual masterpieces, which didn’t just fall out of the sky, God used their intellect to craft these books.  Jesus, no doubt studied the Torah, and learned it well before entering public ministry, are people inspired by the Spirit, yes, but I think God expects much more from those he calls, namely to use all that has been made available to you.  Did you ever consider someone has to write all those commentaries that your pastors use?  

[EverAStudent]

Innerlight,

Excellent apologetic for the need for deep doctrinal training by those who would teach doctrine to others. 

It is more than ironic that today's Master of Divinity degree requires a minimum of three years attending seminary and that the Lord spent just over three years teaching the apostles (the 12 and the 70) to be pastors, teachers, apostles, and evangelists.  Ironic indeed.  And those men already knew Greek and Hebrew before those three years began!

Blessings.
EverAStudent, M.Div.