Elders and their authority

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[wastedyearsthere]

I heard a message in our new church I found novel and I would never had heard this in a GCC church.

The pastor shared that when people come to him with a problem -- he tells them these are his opinions.  His opinion could be just as valid as their opinion and they needed to decide.  He said on some topics where the Bible was clear he tried to convince them to accept his opinion.  Otherwise, he said he was no higher than they were and they needed to decide before God. 

I don't think I ever heard this shared in a GCC church.  I was always thrown the "You have so submit to your authority".  I remember a friend saying she never went to an elder at GCC for advise because she knew she would have to do it otherwise be told she was rebellious and labelled as such.....

In our town -- the GCC church has a reputation as being another very good mainstream church among the other strong believers -- I think this cult-like characteristic separates them from the other churches -- among a few other things.

[Another One]

wastedyears, I think we're both in the same town in the middle of the midwest and from the same set of churches.  GCM church up north, new church way out east?

[wastedyearsthere]

I'm from Ames IA church - Stonebrook.  You?

[Linda]

The pastor shared that when people come to him with a problem -- he tells them these are his opinions.  His opinion could be just as valid as their opinion and they needed to decide.  He said on some topics where the Bible was clear he tried to convince them to accept his opinion.  Otherwise, he said he was no higher than they were and they needed to decide before God.

The idea that the pastor believes he has authority over ALL areas of a church member's life is what I consider the defining TACO characteristic.

I think it stems from several things, a main one being a misunderstanding of the limits of the authority. (Example: A policeman is an authority that I have to obey at certain times. When the red light is flashing, I need to pull over. However, the policeman does not have the authority to tell me where to work. Likewise, a pastor has authority to preach the Word and give counsel to others to obey it.)

Making this more frightening is the perpetuation of the idea of raising up leaders from within who have never experienced or heard of or been taught any other way of doing things. (Of course, I'm an idiot for attending a church for 10 years where the pastors thought I was supposed to give the controls of my life to them!! Actually, when we figured that out, we left.)

A couple years back, I was speaking with an Alliance pastor of over 40 years. I asked him about commitment for life to a local church. He thought the idea was wrong since God could call you elsewhere. I asked him about telling people he should decide when and who they marry, or where they work, or any other personal decision. His answer was, "How could I ever do that? I couldn't know. What if I told them something and I was wrong?"

[puff of purple smoke]

I don't think I ever heard this shared in a GCC church.  I was always thrown the "You have so submit to your authority".  I remember a friend saying she never went to an elder at GCC for advise because she knew she would have to do it otherwise be told she was rebellious and labelled as such.....

Also remember that they teach that even if your leader tells you to do something that is wrong, it is better to obey than not because you will be blessed by God simply for obeying your leader. The leader's job is to watch over you so it is entirely their responsibility whether they are right or wrong. No longer will the burden of decision making weigh you down! (The Bereans must have been a bunch of punk kids with bad attitudes.)

[bothered]

Another thing to note here is that your typically GCM pastor is probably not under anyone's authority himself - whether he is a great leader or poor leader. In most GCM college churches, the pastors of the church are not under authority. Plus, they are usually supported by individual donors and most of the time those donors are not form the local church. So, they are not even really accountable to their own local church. Non-denominational churches, like GCM churches, exist like little "island" churches. There is a GCM board, but I don't think they function like a source of direction for churches. Most GCM churches stay similar, however, because leaders are built up usually from within the congregation and then those leaders are sent out to plant more churches. Rarely do GCM college churches hire seminary trained pastors from outside the movement, for example.

[jaywalker]

Bothered wrote, "There is a GCM board, but I don't think they function like a source of direction for churches. Most GCM churches stay similar, however, because leaders are built up usually from within the congregation"

Don't know about today, but in the 70s and 80s the National Elders functioned as a highly authoritarian oversight board of GC.  They controlled everything from conference agendas to running the leadership training program to setting doctrine to shuffling elders between churches.  McCotter may have been a key to that behavior back then, but in those days the board ruled with a heavy hand. 

Don't believe it?  Just read the old Cause magazine called "The Joy of Justice," it's a sort of manifesto for the National Elders controlling the GC denomination with an iron fist.

[bothered]

Good points jaywalker. You are right, if the GCM board or some similar entity within GCM were to give more direction, it would be a disaster if it was like the 70s and 80s. But, I think the following are both extremes: what GCM college ministries have today - no overseeing entity or if they do have that entity it is a kind of hodgepodge of former/current staffers - and what you had in the 70s and 80s under their authoritarian leadership. It is always difficult finding that middle ground, but worth pursuing. Though far from issues, I think there are denominations out there that do a decent job of trying to find that balance. Perhaps the Presbyterians would be a fair example? Anglican churches? Methodists? Unfortunately, I have to speak from limited knowledge on these organizations and in many respects GCM too. But, from my experience there seems to be a better balance between local and national accountability and direction in these denominations. I think it is worth GCM taking a look at. And on a side note, perhaps not directly related to this post, I also think GCM needs to look more into staff development that involves seminary training. Again, thanks for your thoughts jaywalker. It is good for me to remember that having a national body of overseers may not necessarily be a good thing either if not done correctly.

[theresearchpersona]

Bothered wrote, "There is a GCM board, but I don't think they function like a source of direction for churches. Most GCM churches stay similar, however, because leaders are built up usually from within the congregation"

It has rather seemed to go two ways; in the event there is some kind of mutiny--which can be as simple as asking a question like 'are you ever going to teach theology', or 'stop abusing me', or 'you're subject to the Bible too [pastor]'--a GC* 'pastor' is pretty much able to do whatever he wants to someone. In the event it's a whole Church, however, or perhaps the pastors there aren't GC*-enough, the organization will send 'help' (people ordered to quit their jobs and lives and move with some other pastors, even, at times, including a band, to overwhelm--i.e. crush and drive out--the group that was there before).

That has actually happened: I believe there's some allusions to such an occurrence in Florida on these very forums. As to the 'are you going to teach theology', that was a ten-year friend of John Meyer of Fort Collins, CO., and he and his family, as well as some others in a similar situation, were kicked-out: not so friendly when they're exposed for charlatans. The answer was 'I don't have a[ny] theology', to which the asker replied, '[what!] if you don't have theology, you don't have anything'. Note that I'm quoting near-verbatim (I think verbatim, but just being cautious) what those people told me after this occurrence; they sort-of landed at my Church there, that is, they looked for one that was actually teaching rather than tickling and ended-up where I did; I mentioned that I'm quoting them (actually a him) because I want to make clear that he may have been paraphrasing and whatnot: don't want to put words into mouths as if it's that exactly, though it could have been that (they were such simple statements they may have been very likely, or very close: the kind of statements I was myself familiar with John making).

Hope this might help you gain a clearer picture.