EPICenter Des Moines

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[truthorliesgcm]

What is this program all about?

The website doesn't give much information (http://epicenter.alivecf.com/) except to say:
Epicenter is a summer leadership program designed to encourage and strengthen young people in their Christian faith. Leadership is learned through experience, and through the Epicenter program, students are able to be involved in many different aspects of Christian life, all the while growing in their knowledge and understanding of who God is and how He can use their lives.

It is sponsored by Walnut Creek Community Church which my good friend attends. She often talks about this program and has asked me to come for sessions, hang-outs, etc. I have always declined her invitations to church due to what I have read here.

Any information will be useful.

[nelliepooh]

Basically that's what it is, people sign up and they do community things, soccer programs, and that and then they have speakers come and talk to ya once a week.  In my opinion its a way to get the college students to stay in the summer.  Funny thing is you pay like 100$ to be a part of it and the money goes to paying for the speakers to come, mostly gcm leaders ne way.  I only ever did it one year bc 100$seamed to me a lot to pay for doing community service and for ho hum speakers.

[AgathaL'Orange]

After listening to some sermons from last year, I am convinced that this is where they do a significant amount of strong encouragement and pressure to devote your life to GC.  They openly say that.  While I think it's great to study, read, discuss, and worship together, GC takes it to another level.  They are very strict on dating and life membership to GC.  The only acceptable way out is literally to die.  Anything other is being divisive.  They do not hide or apologize for this belief.   

I would love to see these students who have not yet created families figure out what they believe their life should be about before they commit wholeheartedly to GC.  But to consider yourself as an autonomous being is not the GC way and is damaging.  I believe it leaves a lot of people in an identity crisis, looking for someone to tell them what to do and think, and longing for an unnatural addiction to close, invasive, innappropriate non family relationships and mentors with an agenda.  There are other active churches in the area.  I hear good things about Lutheran Church of Hope, First Federated, Valley E Free, Point of Grace, and another Reformed/Presbyterian Church People love.

[G_Prince]

Epicenter is a summer leadership program (indoctrination camp) designed to encourage and strengthen (pressure and guilt) young people in their Christian faith (into GCx's fundamentalism). Leadership is learned through experience (usually negative), and through the Epicenter program, students are able to be involved (isolated from family and society) in many different aspects of Christian life (service evangelism), all the while growing (conforming) in their knowledge and understanding of who God is (GCx's version) and how He (GCx)can use their lives.

That would be my interpretation.

[truthorliesgcm]

I have been going to this church the past couple of weeks and it has definitely been a very different experience than other churches that I've attended.

The soccer league that they have for the inner city kids is great and has made a big difference in the lives of the kids. I have heard so many stories of how the coaches have been faithful to the kids over the years. Is that such a bad thing?

Maybe they're just being nice to me because I'm the new kid on the block, but it's hard for me to reconcile the stories that I've read here with the people that I'm meeting there, no disrespect to the people that have had bad experiences at this church.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Did you read the excerpt on the obedience game?  That sermon was given at epicenter within the last few days.  Are you comfortable with that happening to little kids?

[truthorliesgcm]

I was there for that session of epicenter and I must admit, I wasn't particularly struck by it. I was more focused on the message as a whole. I must admit now that it's been specifically pointed out, it doesn't seem a very good method for teaching kids true obedience. But I guess I find it difficult to judge a person's methods with just that one story.

I do want to talk to some of the people that have been attending for a long time what their experience has been like as far as obeying the pastors is concerned because I don't think I would want to attend a church that teaches unconditional obedience to the pastors.

I know that you have had more personal experience with all this stuff than I have so I don't want to seem like I'm disregarding your words, but I do want to know more for myself.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I understand.  I felt a "weird" feeling the first time I went there, but it took 8 years for my brain to catch up to my instinct. 

Spanking kids in that way is wrong, by the way.  It's abuse and if they treat their own children that way, do you really think they are capable of having normal relationships?  They are lovebombing you and trying to make you "family".  Run!

[truthorliesgcm]

Were you a part of this church, Agatha? If you were, I would like to talk to you more about it privately.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I am open to PMing, but I don't give my ID or personal info about people in GC.  I care about many people in GC and don't wish to hurt them personally! 

[Rebekah]

Truthorlies,
I still feel that confusion about the people I know in GC. How can people who are so friendly and who want so badly to follow the Lord do such rotten things?

But please, trust what you've read here and what you've seen in your friend. Walnut Creek is not a GC church that has broken with the cult-like past in any way. In fact, I consider it a hotbed of lunacy.

I know it looks nice and fun and cool and "on fire" now, but it's got a nasty dark side that you might not recognize until you're in too deep--or until you wake up one day and realize that you see yourself and the world much more negatively than you used to.

There are other good and cool churches in Des Moines. It's not worth the risk!

[truthorliesgcm]

Dr James Christensen of the Heaven & Home Hour is speaking tonight. It sounds like he's not affiliated with the church or movement in any way but he's come here twice now. Is he not aware of the reputation of the church? I am confused. Josh McDowell has come twice in the past with plans for a third visit. Surely he has his reputation to consider and going to a church with questionable reputation would affect his credibility as well. Like I said, I'm confused.

Any thoughts, people?

[AgathaL'Orange]

They honestly may not be aware.  They also probably speak for a fee much like a musician and may not research where they are speaking.  I actually think it's great they (WCCC) are trying to be more mainstream.  However, no speaker is going to know the inner workings of a church.

[truthorliesgcm]

A few people have left the church or been asked to leave the church due to their Calvinistic beliefs. Has this happened in any other GC churches?

[MidnightRider]

Me and a couple of friends. I didn't wait to be asked to leave.

[anonymous]

I attended Walnut Creek for four years, and I would recommend getting out now.

Things that didn't sit well with me:

1) smothering, suffocating quality.  I actually had a life outside of the Church, including friends who (gasp) didn't attend Walnut Creek or who weren't even Christians.  This was frowned upon.  I was constantly being chided about not being more involved, i.e., I needed to prove my love of God through my level of church-sponsored activity.

2) unholy political alliance.  The pastor from the pulpit stated who he was endorsing for president the Sunday before election day.  Talk about using the bully pulpit!  This is entirely inappropriate, and their non-profit IRS status should have been revoked.

3) treatment of women.  Women were seen only as extensions of their husbands.  For example, in a women's Bible study, the leader taught that God didn't call women, but rather He called the husbands and the wives were along for the ride.  When I countered by bringing up God's specific plan for Sarah to mother Isaac (if God only cared about Abraham having the child, then why wouldn't using Hagar have been just fine?), my comments were dismissed and I received the subtle message that I should keep my thoughts to myself.

[blonde]

Amen!  Love the three points.  So true.

[Alibi]

Read this article by John Hopler.
http://www.gccweb.org/assets/gccweb/Explanation%20of%20Criticisms%20final0910.pdf

Is it possible that a particular criticism against a church or GCC is valid?
"Of course. We are all flawed people with blind spots who need God and other
believers to teach us. That’s why GCC pastors regularly invite church attenders to give
counsel and feedback..."

I have never heard any leaders at WCCC asking for any counsel or feedback from church attenders (probably they think everything they do is right).

And about John Hopler, during his message (Fredom in Christ II, from epicenter 2010 website) he was so tenuous and tentative about acknowledging the Sovereignty of God.

[Alibi]

One thing that I have seen at Great Commission Church in Des Moines is this - if anyone have a desire to attend Theological Seminary and are looking forward toward it, student leaders & staff members  have often spoken them and suggested them not to attend such seminary but stay in Des Moines and submit your life to the people in Des Moines & the church ...  probably they fear that those seminary students might get reformed at the Seminary ... haha  

[MarthaH]

Really? They don't promote proper Theological training? Probably because it puffs up  
I went to my mechanic and asked him if he had been trained and he told me it wasn't necessary because knowledge puffs up. And you misspelled a word, Alibi. I believe it is referred to over there as "Cemetery", and not "Seminary".  
To be fair, isn't one of the pastors there a seminary grad? What do you think of the GCLI (sp?) training that leaders receive?
I get the feeling that quite a few people there are questioning the church and I've heard of some leaving. Is it for the same reasons?