EPICenter Des Moines

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[MarthaH]

I listened to John Hopler's message on the EpicCenter website called, "Freedom in Christ part 2". It didn't have a whole lot to do with Freedom in Christ, but seemed to be a message saying that they aren't Calvinists. Does anyone know the reason for it? Was it to control people like Midnight Rider?
My experience was that if you shared something in a Bible study, it would mysteriously make its way into a message. Amazing how those things happened and how often they happened.

[Alibi]

Once during my normal conversation with one of the Church Staff member I accidentally asked him, "...so how are you trained (in Florida) when you are chosen to become a GCM staff ?" His reply was - "Many churches today have failed. GCC have studied reasons for many of those failures and now they follow many strategies to let GC Church not to fail ...."
--- sounds like they follow strategies, not the Word of God ...

[MidnightRider]

I listened to John Hopler's message on the EpicCenter website called, "Freedom in Christ part 2". It didn't have a whole lot to do with Freedom in Christ, but seemed to be a message saying that they aren't Calvinists. Does anyone know the reason for it? Was it to control people like Midnight Rider?

Midnight Rider is always pleased to get a mention.   

But Hopler was not in my neck of the woods.

[LivingInFreedom]

His message about not being Calvinists was given because starting in April (ish) many people were starting to become Calvinists, or looked into Calvinism and realized that their beliefs and convictions lined up with it. It was a message to persuade the young people of the church that GCM is not a movement of Calvinists therefore they should not look into it or agree with it.

[Linda]

I don't think we are, I think we are Calvinists.

I was just remembering that Dave B. said this in a talk I recently listened to.

Also, when people say things like this it sounds Calvinistic to me. I've heard several talks that tell people they can't leave because this is where God put them:

I'm here, I'm with these Christians. I'm with Great Commission. That's where I stay. That's where they'll bury me and that's where I'm gonna make my stand. And that's who I'm going to strive with together to achieve something that God has asked us to do. Not because I think I am better than anybody else or better than any other Christians, but because this is where God supernaturally led me.

I can think of a couple other pastors who also said the "you are here because God put you here" line. That's not Arminian in my book.

[Innerlight]

Personally, I think there is danger in both extremes, Calvinism and Arminian.  Being Baptist, we would tend to go with moderate Calvinism.   

I would recommend the book, "Chosen but Free", by Norman Geisler.  having read, you would agree with danger in both extreme positions.   

[guest]

LivingInFreedom, you might want to hide your e-mail address if you want to remain anonymous.

[Linda]

I am wondering whether or not most GC elders know what an Arminian or a Calvinist is. I know some do, but I wonder if most do. We were having lunch with 2 GC elders once and one (who preached regularly, by the way), by his own admission, had no idea what Brent and Terry were talking about when the topic came up. It seems to me that a pastor should have a basic knowledge of the two, and know where he stands in regards to them.

[grandslam]

I don't think that most within GCM are Calvinist's, if by Calvinism one is referring to the 5 points of Calvinism, which is the theology espoused today by the likes of Piper, Grudem, and Sproul.

The darker side of Calvinism is its belief in unconditional election and determinism.  The flip side of unconditional election is that God has predetermined that the majority of human beings born into this world will spend eternity in hell.  God doesn't just pass such individuals over for salvation, he actively determines their rebellion (i.e., determinism) and then punishes them for the rebellion that He determined they would perform.  According to consistent Calvinism, Jesus only died for some humans (his elect); he did not die for every human being born into this world.  Needless to say, the love and justice of God is severely undermined in this system of thought, a system of thought that has no basis among the early church after the death of the apostles.

Most leaders within GCM are probably "Calminian" (that unconditional election and free will, though seemingly contradictory, are nonetheless mysteriously compatible).  But, this is also a very self contradictory position, and Geisler's book on the topic is not really a good resource in defense of the proper biblical position.  The unanimous consensus of the early church was that man has been give a free will, and that once God's grace reaches a soul, it is up to the individual to either accept of reject this grace.  In the eastern world (which saw things much more in a corporate and collective sense), God has elected His church--comprised of both Jew and Gentile--for ultimate glory.  One becomes among the elect by their union with Christ.

[Alibi]

There have been wrong ideas spread about why many people are leaving GCM GCC people say that people are leaving because of Calvinism but I don't see Calvinism as the real issue. Yes God is sovereign and not everyone wanna accept that sovereignty of God.The main issue people are leaving is because of the work based theology GCM is adopting and practicing. Youths are being exposed to the theory of loyalty and performance rather than repenting & believing idea.
They think its a great thing to make people brainwashed with the word of God (as Mark Darling suggested in faithwalkers & many GC pastors say in their messages) but they are brainwashing people with the tradition & custom of their own GC Theology (which I like to called GCeology.

[Innerlight]

Grandslam:

I think you perfectly captured the flavor and tenor of the book.  You made his argument

I would agree with you 100%, and I believe the author would as well.  It just takes him 200 pages to make the point.  His chart, outlining modified TULIP, perfectly lays out what you said.

[MidnightRider]

I don't think we are, I think we are Calvinists.

I was just remembering that Dave B. said this in a talk I recently listened to.

OK, I'll bite. Did he give _any_ reason why he thinks he is a Calvinist?

GCx is not Calvinist. Long ago when I asked my GCx pastor about it, he said he believed in _both_ Calvinism and Arminianism. Which told me he did not know what he was talking about.

I can think of a couple other pastors who also said the "you are here because God put you here" line.

They never give you the "God put you here" line when you are coming _in_ to GCx. If so, they would tell you to go back where you were previously and live your Christian life there. Maybe they think that God didn't put you anywhere until you showed up at the GCx church. So apparently you had free will until you connected with GCx. 8-)

[trthskr]

I believe that Teri (sp?) is "cemetary trained".  He became a pastor when WCCC engulfed the Presbyterian church on the corner.

[guest]

It is my understanding that Terry left the Presbyterian church when their association decided they would allow homosexuals to become pastors. I don't think saying that WCCC "engulfed" them is a correct statement, at least not in this instance.

[Linda]

It is my understanding that Terry left the Presbyterian church when their association decided they would allow homosexuals to become pastors.

This has not happened yet, so that couldn't have been why he left. I believe as it stands now, the individual presbyteries need to ratify this decision (made last July at the national convention) before it takes effect. I'll double check. I am very familiar with the Presbyterian church and know many pastors and members who would leave if that happened. It would be unfortunate if Terry left without trying to take a stand and go along side those pastors and lay people who are working very hard to help others see why they believe this is wrong.

For clarification, the Terry I referred to in my earlier post was my husband, not the WCCC pastor referred to above.

[steelgirl]

One thing that I have seen at Great Commission Church in Des Moines is this - if anyone have a desire to attend Theological Seminary and are looking forward toward it, student leaders & staff members  have often spoken them and suggested them not to attend such seminary but stay in Des Moines and submit your life to the people in Des Moines & the church ...  probably they fear that those seminary students might get reformed at the Seminary ... haha  

Is Des Moines still stuck in the old ways?  GCM and GCAC have partnered with a few theological insistitutes.  Down in Orlando, there could be people who go to this Reformed Seminary.  Is Des Moines still set in their ways.  I most likely would not go to Heritage Christian Church, but there are some good people who go there.  There are people from old GCM and the defunct Mosaic but there are a lot of people who felt led to go there for other reasons.  It might actually have more people with advanced degrees from what I am under the impression.  I am not sure I would still want to go there due to my experience in the now defunct GCM church.