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Author Topic: Faithwalkers 2010 (Or Faithwalkaz, as I like to call it)  (Read 56527 times)
DrSam
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« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2011, 11:21:24 am »

Lucy and Wasted... come on, lighten up! You guys are sounding like the "black and white" mentality that cannot accept the existence of possible grays in life. Grays and Grace! Smiley

   
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 11:24:36 am by DrSam » Logged
DrSam
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« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2011, 11:26:11 am »




With all due respect, I would say to you to get a grip.

Huh Isn't that an paradox?


Ok, then just "get a grip"!  Cheesy
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Huldah
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« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2011, 02:01:43 pm »

Even if Rick was kidding, and Neva didn't mind, the mere fact that people were asking her about it afterward proves that some of the audience took the remark at face value. It would be a shame if someone who looks up to Rick actually considered it an endorsement of verbal abuse, and followed suit.
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G_Prince
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« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2011, 02:53:58 pm »

Even if Rick was kidding, and Neva didn't mind, the mere fact that people were asking her about it afterward proves that some of the audience took the remark at face value. It would be a shame if someone who looks up to Rick actually considered it an endorsement of verbal abuse, and followed suit.

I agree. This comment was confusing and obviously a lot of people DID take it a face value. That's why it was insensative. Maybe you like to joke around that way at home, but for people new to GCx and Faithwalkers who don't really know who Rick Whitney is, this comment could easily be misunderstood. I don't think it was an endorsement of verbal abuse, but it did throw Neva in a bad light especially if you couldn't tell that Rick was joking.
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BTDT
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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2011, 08:40:30 pm »

I understand. I did not say GC is sparkling clean. I'm just saying that I was not emotionally devastated by voluntarily and happily sacrificing for God. No one was coerced and neither was it official to do things like dumpster diving. The teams and groups I led never ever did such. If anyone ever was coerced, I would have been the first to protest. I also never said that I sanction every word from Jim. For me and many others, we gladly sacrificed... voluntarily. Maybe your situation was unfortunate and different. [/b]

Hi, Sam -- Normally, I agree with what you write in this forum, but this time, I'm with newcreature.  I find his description much, much closer to my experience at GC Church of Maryland, where you pastored for a while. I'm not saying you coerced or pressured anyone -- I wasn't part of your group(s), and hardly knew you outside of your Sunday sermons.  I am saying that there were many parts of the Maryland church, including the larger group I was in, that were heavily pressured to make huge sacrifices because of all the reasons newcreature relates. 

I find it a little hard to believe that the Md. church would be so "schizophrenic" as to have significantly different "personalities" in different groups, but maybe that's what happned.  The church was so big, it could be possible.  (And sorry for borrowing and misusing a couple of your profession's words.  Grin )

-B
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« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2011, 08:42:04 pm »

BTW, with so many of the seminars now online, and some on this board ready to listen to them all, anyone found a seminar that they feel is good; that would bless the community of Christ? There were a lot oa pastors and pastors wives that spoke this year that have not in the past, because of the three separate locations.

Some good ones that I have listened to:

Seminars
Being rooted and established in love  - Eph 3:17 - Kurt Jurgensmeier
Make-Up Free Christianity -Robin Klapatch (for women only)
More Than Enough - Joy Whitney (for women only)

Main Session
Love for God –Rob Gerber

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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2011, 08:50:48 pm »

I don't think any meanness was meant by him. I don't think Neva would have been offended.
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I am surprised that a psychologist would interpret his statements and her response in this way. His statements were just plain mean, and her response revealed an unhealthy lack of boundaries.

I just wanted to point out that the other messages are online now. Also, listen to Neva and Mandy's message for wives and mothers. She directly references Rick's comments saying, "That was only a joke when he was talking about me being a sloppy person..I've probably had a dozen people ask me about that...and I've said, no that was supposed to be a joke and no I wasn't offended."

Her response does not diminish the impact his hurtful word, it makes them more alarming.  It was not a joke, and she should have been offended. An emotionally healthy person would not tolerate this behavior.

I think that perception has a lot to do with how different people view the statement that RW made. If he had thought about the different ways that his statement would have been perceived, he probably wouldn't have made it. He probably only thought of it as being a sarcastic statement that would make people laugh. I doubt he'll use that statement again seeing the impact it can have on people. We, in this forum, don't seem to be giving RW much grace.
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Linda
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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2011, 10:14:50 pm »

Rick Whitney said this:
"It's hard to live with people. Perhaps it's a roommate, or even your spouse. Over these many years, I have lived with a very, very messy roommate. For almost 40 years, an incredibly messy roommate. Do you live with a roommate who is grumpy all the time? I do. Oh, Lord, forgive me. Who clams up and never wants to talk? I do. Do you live with a roommate who just doesn't want to seem to carry their weight? Tell me about it. Listen, I feel your pain. The problem with people is that people can be a problem sometimes."

He publicly described his wife as messy, grumpy, distant, and lazy. There didn't seem to be much laughter from the audience when he said this. A few minutes later, he joked about bad drivers, and the audience laughter was readily heard.

How humiliating for his wife to have to answer the question as to whether or not she was hurt. She should not have been put in that position. He should have stepped up to the plate and apologized publicly and immediately. Perhaps he did.

The proper response was to take the talk down immediately. Wisely, they chose to do this.

A man of integrity would make a genuine and public apology/correction. This apology/correction should be just that. A humble apology. It should not be, "I said some things in a talk at Faithwalkers that some detractors of our movement are making a big deal of online and I want everyone to know that I was joking and the detractors, once again, are misrepresenting what we stand for." That would be blame shifting, and not a humble apology.

As far as your comment about extending grace to RW, I believe we have been doing that. I am choosing to believe that he realized that his words were hurtful and asked that the talk be removed.
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DrSam
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« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2011, 10:20:54 pm »

I understand. I did not say GC is sparkling clean. I'm just saying that I was not emotionally devastated by voluntarily and happily sacrificing for God. No one was coerced and neither was it official to do things like dumpster diving. The teams and groups I led never ever did such. If anyone ever was coerced, I would have been the first to protest. I also never said that I sanction every word from Jim. For me and many others, we gladly sacrificed... voluntarily. Maybe your situation was unfortunate and different. [/b]

Hi, Sam -- Normally, I agree with what you write in this forum, but this time, I'm with newcreature.  I find his description much, much closer to my experience at GC Church of Maryland, where you pastored for a while. I'm not saying you coerced or pressured anyone -- I wasn't part of your group(s), and hardly knew you outside of your Sunday sermons.  I am saying that there were many parts of the Maryland church, including the larger group I was in, that were heavily pressured to make huge sacrifices because of all the reasons newcreature relates. 

I find it a little hard to believe that the Md. church would be so "schizophrenic" as to have significantly different "personalities" in different groups, but maybe that's what happned.  The church was so big, it could be possible.  (And sorry for borrowing and misusing a couple of your profession's words.  Grin )

-B

No problem, BTDT. I'm with you. The quality of leadership among small-group or home-group leaders varied greatly, especially in a large church. The more mature, emotionally and spiritually the leader then the healthier the folks were. I say this in retrospect.
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blonde
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« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2011, 03:21:46 am »

this is very timely for this discussion: http://www.dailywav.com/0810/clergymanPR.wav
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« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2011, 07:30:53 am »

I think grace should be given as the comments made were not done with malice. They were definitely an unwise choice of words. That is, however, a problem with the movement as a whole.

Because the men are untrained in proper handling of the Bible and in public speaking, you will so often hear Scripture taken out of context and misapplied and mistakes made like this. This is neither healthy or helpful in growing a relationship with God.

I will use an example from a seminar I attended on being single. So much of it was "personal experience" based on a shallow application of random verses that seemed to be present because they "fit in" with the message. Then, the young man made a statement of "now this doesn't mean you are not a Christian if you don't do this" to kind of cover any offensive statements he made or appease people who may disagree with him. This is NOT teaching me what the Bible teaches on the matter! This is putting YOUR culture upon me!

I don't know if anyone else notices how they do this, but it was throughout the conference. They give testimonials that foster a culture instead of teaching from Scripture properly! I felt like I was at a multi-level marketing presentation. This is dangerous and subtle. I do not think I will be attending much longer. Everybody else was just buying into it. Did anyone else who went notice this?
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wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2011, 07:40:05 am »

Did they take down the dailywav.com?  Couldn't get into it.

I find it interesting that the leaders and elders are monitoring this site but telling the congregation not to look at it......... Roll Eyes

I agree with commenting -- so many problems with GCC teachings and then they excuse it with being "untrained"?!!  Unbelievable. 
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DrSam
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« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2011, 10:35:30 am »

Did they take down the dailywav.com?  Couldn't get into it.

I find it interesting that the leaders and elders are monitoring this site but telling the congregation not to look at it......... Roll Eyes

I agree with commenting -- so many problems with GCC teachings and then they excuse it with being "untrained"?!!  Unbelievable.  

Wasted and anyone reading,

I would say that if any GC Leader is chiming in I would suggest several things to them.

The movement lost some pretty good guys... mostly because the GC Board was immature and did not know how to work with peers in interdependent relationships. They think they did and maybe that they still do. I don't think so. I've told the board that they only know how to have one-up or one-down relationships. I would also add that even though my dear brother John Hopler and a few other have talked about appreciating diversity, that is definitely not the case with co-national leaders. If you don't agree with John, Rick, & Co. then you are out. That is why Tom Schroeder, Rob Irvine, and myself were disposed of. We were looked at some sort of "renegades" and were probably too "crazy" for the movement. They could not manage us and were threatened by us. I think they shot themselves in the foot and now the movement is one of the most boring movements out there and it is just a matter of time, in my opinion, that it will fade away as a "traditional" movement. It is already happening. They have already shot themselves a few times in the foot since our departure.

I would encourage those elders/pastors reading this to push for reconciliation with us three (and a few other elders thrown in). I am not espousing returning to the movement but to fix what was a disaster. I personally believe that they felt, "Good riddance" of us. Very immature. It showed the ineptness in working out relational issues. It showed how shallow their commitment truly was despite hundreds of sermons on the topic. Even though they may consider it "proud" but they have no idea what they lost when they "shot" some of the their most creative types... guys that colored outside the box. They are now very stuck, boring, aging, etc. They have lost their spark. They do not know how to have healthy relationships with peers. The three of us who left were pretty honest and getting more and more healthy. I see how God took me out because I had outgrown them. Sad, but they were VERY stuck in very immature relational dynamics and old scripts that needed "fresh oil" and "Spirit" renewal.

I challenge any elder reading this to pursue this. Probably nothing will happen because of being "yes" men and trying not to stir the pot like we did. Conformity is expected. Sad and immature.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 10:40:09 am by DrSam » Logged
wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2011, 02:38:26 pm »

AMEN!  I hope they read this Sam and push for reconciliation.   Well said....  I hate being negative but I don't think there is much of a chance since that would involve them admitting to some wrongdoing.   They don't seem to be able to do that despite tons of sermons about admitting wrongs, humility, etc
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« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2011, 06:30:07 pm »

I will use an example from a seminar I attended on being single. So much of it was "personal experience" based on a shallow application of random verses that seemed to be present because they "fit in" with the message. Then, the young man made a statement of "now this doesn't mean you are not a Christian if you don't do this" to kind of cover any offensive statements he made or appease people who may disagree with him. This is NOT teaching me what the Bible teaches on the matter! This is putting YOUR culture upon me!

I don't know if anyone else notices how they do this, but it was throughout the conference. They give testimonials that foster a culture instead of teaching from Scripture properly! I felt like I was at a multi-level marketing presentation. This is dangerous and subtle. I do not think I will be attending much longer. Everybody else was just buying into it. Did anyone else who went notice this?

I agree with Commenting. Teachings in general aren't based on scripture. They are based on a concept or idea that they want to convey and scripture that seems to fit into it is used to back it up. And their usage of blanket statements like "now this doesn't mean you are not a Christian if you don't do this" seem to convey the idea that they are open to people having other convictions or disagreeing with what they say, but in reality their whole entire message is about how what they are saying sets a standard for people that want to live a life devoted to God and any other way is a sub-standard devotion.

Were you at the Midwest conference, Commenting?
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« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2011, 08:34:43 pm »

Was there to give it one last chance. Don't want to comment too much as I want to leave on a good note.

Dr. Sam's post was very enlightening. When I first looked at this site, I wasn't sure what his experiences were. Thank you for sharing these things. Unfortunately, I have spoken with leadership on some of the leaders on lack of unity with the body of Christ in my city and it was met with disdain. There is still no cooperation with other churches in our city.

As for the flock, they are kept in ignorance. Nobody will know the reason why the Sams, Toms and Robs leave until years later. They will be given different reasons for their departures. By the way, the "weakness paper" needs a new edition for 2010. These problems are not a thing of the past.
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Linda
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« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2011, 08:41:03 pm »

Did you happen to catch Main Session 2, the one by Rude that was never put online? I thought Rick Whitney made reference to a discussion of the "enemies" of the movement being mentioned in an earlier talk and wondered if perhaps this was the talk.
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« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2011, 09:14:52 pm »

Did you happen to catch Main Session 2, the one by Rude that was never put online? I thought Rick Whitney made reference to a discussion of the "enemies" of the movement being mentioned in an earlier talk and wondered if perhaps this was the talk.

I don't think that Tim's message was the one, unless I managed to miss it.  Wink
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« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2011, 09:22:38 pm »

His talk was fine. Nothing out of the ordinary. He did talk a bit about sacrifice and commitment. There were a lot of verses from various places put together. That's just a peeve of mine, when they throw a bunch of scriptures together. It makes it hard to listen critically (not as in having a critical spirit, but as in making sure scriptures are used correctly). I'd have to listen to it again to see if any were used out of context or not.
If I were to give the talk, I suppose I would have mentioned joy, grace and the power of living by the Holy Spirit. It was one of those subtle go out and do something talks, if I recall. Sorry, I didn't take notes this time. Wasn't planning to post either. Just felt like I needed to say my 2 cents before I left.
I think my ears perked up when I heard a speaker make reference to "God will provide a job". I think it may have been him. I only mention it because GC leaders always expect you to stay with them and never move.
Anyhow, thanks to everyone for this forum. I think I would have left at some point, but when I read this I realized that what I saw going on wasn't all in my head.
Pray for the people still in. Don't get your hopes up too much that other people will see what you see or that they will think it is wrong. Anyhow, praying for those who find this site.
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« Reply #99 on: January 05, 2011, 09:42:28 pm »

I think my ears perked up when I heard a speaker make reference to "God will provide a job". I think it may have been him. I only mention it because GC leaders always expect you to stay with them and never move.

That was definitely in his talk. This is a common bit of advice that is given to college grads that are struggling to find jobs.
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