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Author Topic: Faithwalkers 2011  (Read 44688 times)
Linda
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« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2018, 04:17:54 am »


Great reply, Huldah. Thanks.

People who defend harmful GCC teaching have no idea of the spiritual, psychological, and emotional damage it has inflicted on many for many years.

Quote from: Greentruth
Suzanne and John, please end this.

Are you saying that Suzanne should not speak of her abuse?

Why?
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araignee19
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« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2018, 06:38:30 am »

Greentruth, I sent you a private message regarding your post, as it is getting a bit away from the intended topic of this thread.
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Linda
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« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2018, 06:42:31 am »

Quote from: Greentruth
as most Churches I have been to follow pretty close.

Unless you have attended a lot of independent churches with founding apostles, my guess is that you THINK most churches follow pretty close, but they probably are not as close as you think.

If you attend an Free church, or an Alliance church, or a Presbyterian church, or a Baptist church then ECC is nothing like those churches.

Does your church have a founding apostle (or three)?

Do your leaders teach commitment to the church or church denomination for life?

Do your pastors tell people to give the controls of their lives to their pastors?

What would happen if one of your main pastors spoke at a high school retreat and dropped the f-bomb? My guess is there would be severe discipline, perhaps removal from office.

Does your church have an anonymous finance board?

I'm guessing you think ECC is similar to other churches you've visited in terms of outreach. But in terms of theology and church structure, GCC/ECC is NOT like most churches.

In healthy churches, if one person suggested sexual abuse, the church board would not wait a month and hire an attorney. They would immediately go to the victim(s) and hear their stories in person. They would take those charges seriously and understand that ALL can sin. Even beloved pastors.

I would just caution you to stop and think that in your rebuke of this forum, maybe you don't know as much as you think you do. Maybe you are swayed by friends and others you are trying to impress who know you are posting here and know your anonymous name.

One last thing, seeking justice does not harm the cause of Christ. If these allegations are true, harm was done by the person who did them. Not by the women who exposed them. Sin needs to be exposed, not hidden. This is why, unless ECC has something to hide (and it's looking more and more like they do) they will demonstrate humility and hire a 3rd party INDEPENDENT investigator who will make the results transparent. They will not leave the conclusions to an anonymous financial board.
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Huldah
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« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2018, 07:36:26 am »

DLM, you can't hear our voices or see our expressions. You read unrighteous anger into our writings because that's what you assume we're feeling. We might actually be writing in a spirit of compassion, pity, warning, or even just an emotionless recital of the facts, but you can't see it that way because you're predisposed to interpret everything we write in the most negative way possible. That's what fits your worldview.
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Differentstrokes
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« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2018, 07:49:36 am »

Agatha, Linda, Huldah, very well said thank you. You guys always know what to say when I am at a loss for words
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Mapleleaf
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« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2018, 07:53:08 am »

DLM, your so right.  Everyone on here is so angry and cynical.  It's a good thing yourself or Jeromy have not been angry or cynical on this site.  It's a good thing I've never seen you personally get angry and unreasonable about something in the real world.

And furthermore, I'd like to call out something that you seem to want to just categorize as anger, but I think is troubling.  Many above have raised concerns about Green's line of "Suzanne and John, please end this."  It is a mindset I hear a lot from those within ECC that are frustrated, wondering why Suzanne didn't bring this forward differently so it could be handled more quietly and we could move on.  That is very troubling, and I don't believe that gets to what the core of what ECC has pledged with this investigation: to seek the truth and and pursue justice for all.   

Do you not believe Scout's claims of abuse?
Do you not believe Victim C's claims of abuse?
Do you not believe Victim A's claims of abuse?
Do you believe their could be other women who have claims that haven't come forward yet?
After reading those stories, do you consider what they discuss to be abuse?

If your answer in NO to all of those, then we'll probably never see eye to eye, and we should just agree to disagree.  But if answer Yes to any, or consider Yes to be a possibility, but your problem is "the way that Scout bought her claims forward".  Ask yourself, what's more important, that we get to truth, find out how many women there were, and move to healing for all parties.  Or is it more important to protect the integrity and the sanctity of the church, and protect Mark's good name.

I believe that the majority of the people here just want the truth to come out, and for the truth to be clear to all. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 09:08:52 am by Mapleleaf » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2018, 08:17:34 am »

DLM,

If it is shown that these allegations are true, will you be angry?

Will you be ashamed that your emotionally charged, gossip filled posts (see divorce/maybe she’s a criminal  comments) might have been used to shame real victims?

Most of us are asking for a truly independent, fully transparent investigation to seek facts.

This is reasonable, but apparently not to you.

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Linda
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« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2018, 08:49:33 am »

And another thing.

The stated purpose of this forum is not healing. So stop saying it is.

It is:

“Welcome to De-Commissioned, a forum for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, and the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.“


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Greentruth
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« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2018, 10:48:45 am »

Just having lunch and read responses, of which all where totally what I expected. I like how words are added and manipulated here, to support your agenda. I’m not going to bother trying to convince those on this form of anything, as it’s obviously a waste of time. I never said anything about the validity of scout’s claims one way or another. Just that this form and social media is doing more damage than good, which is so obvious. And I will continue to pray for those who responded, that you some day find peace in your hearts to try and uplift Gods word and be a light for love, rather than stimulating yourselves with this darkness that seems to consume you. I just also pray that scout and her husband can find an avenue to peace and contentment that is not so destructive. Just know, many of us only wish them peace and fulfillment in Gods plan for them, as we love them very much.
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Linda
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« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2018, 11:19:11 am »

Greentruth,

Questions.

1. How would someone follow Matthew 18 and "tell the church" when part of the accusation is the church has been accused of a cover up? When the person had already gone to the elders with the allegations?

2. Your response seems directed at Scout, what about the others claiming abuse? Do they deserve to be heard?

3. If the allegations are true, is it better to just sweep them under the rug, you know, for the sake of the Gospel?

« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 11:21:37 am by Linda » Logged

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Greentruth
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« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2018, 11:38:05 am »

Have to get back to work but,,, Linda, everyone at this Church, and pretty much a lot of the twin cities Christian community know of the allegations made at ECC. Most know the leaders, and know the Church to be honorable and trustworthy. If there is truth, which I’m totally sure will be exposed, in the allegations it will be dealt with. I have no contact with any leaders, but still have many mutual friends from ECC who support that this will be handled properly. All the assumptions, caterwauling, and lack of patience help nothing.
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Huldah
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« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2018, 11:39:39 am »

I've noticed that when people come here to criticize the forum as Greentruth has done, they almost always follow the Bill Gothard model, where the burden of keeping the peace is placed put on the party who was wronged.

They don't go to the person in power and say, "Hey, you need to reach out and make it right with all these people you've injured. The damage you're doing to your own flock is causing people to turn against Christ."

Instead, what we're told is, "The way you, the injured party, respond to being mistreated is the real problem." Exposing the sin is somehow considered much worse than the sin itself.
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Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2018, 12:44:49 pm »

Thank you GTA. Well said.
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Linda
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« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2018, 05:10:08 pm »

Quote from: GTA
Most of this stems from a false allegation that Scout made where she claims that she brought up sexual misconduct claims 17 years ago, and the church has moved to cover this up. ...You see the issue is that there is physical evidence, and multiple eyewitnesses, that show this is just not true.

I think it would help your cause if you just gave a teensy nod to the idea that the victims might be telling the truth and called for an independent investigation with transparency.

You do not know the allegations are false. Only two people know exactly what happened. Mark and Suzanne/victims.

There is a lot we don't know. Let's find a fair way to have all involved by heard fairly.
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Linda
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« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2018, 05:53:28 am »

Quote from: GTA
Because of what we know regarding her allegations that the church knew and covered it up (evidence and eyewitnesses that disprove her allegation), I find it difficult to find her credible regarding the other victim/s...So she let the current investigation continue on for many weeks before finally speaking up to the BOT saying she wished to have a different investigator...She, Joan, is 100% the driver seat.  She is calling the shots, and deciding who is interviewed.  Not ECC, not the BOT, not any pastor.

You say, "because of what we know". Who is "we"?

You say, "I find it difficult to find her credible regarding the other victim/s." I read this as you think Suzanne is making up the other victims. Is that what you think?

You say she waited weeks before asking for a different investigator. She called for a 3rd party independent investigator from the start. She communicated with Joan from the start and was accidentally copied on an email meant for the BOT that showed Joan represented ECC (attorney client privilege). She had to hire an attorney to represent her because ECC hired an attorney to represent them. She has continued to call for a different mutually agreed upon investigator and was denied that request by the BOT. Also, as an investigator, it sounds like Joan isn't being proactive in her investigation, but rather waiting for information to come to her.

You say Joan is in the driver's seat. How do you know this? How would you know this? Someone told you or are you on the BOT?
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2018, 09:58:24 am »

In your bizarre world, victims are responsible for calling for their own investigations and before they say they’ve been hurt, they need to have their plan all worked out.
 
Every time I see your name “God Trumps All” I see what you're really saying “God Trumps All— even Suzanne and the other women.".

You will do whatever verbal or thought gymnasitics to make this all okay.  But if it were you or your daughter, sister, or friend, you’d feel the same way many people watching do.  

In your world (and in Jeromy’s world and in the other GCx apologetics experts), victims always immediately come forward and state their names publicly and their abuser.  They also need to have a full plan worked out in advance.  They should be perfectly knowledgeable about how BOTs work.  And they need to never mess up at all with how they state their accusations.  They must understand employment law.  They must only make accusations verbally or in writing or print-- not online.  They must never have done anything wrong, because that would discredit them.  They must have understood completely what happened to them, immediately and be able to make sense of it.  They must be willing to be a lighting rod for attention and strife.  And they must also, always think of how their accusations might look to the rest of the world.  And they must bear some blame for allowing it to happen and whether or not people choose to get saved after hearing about it. Oh and they also need to weather attacks from people who believe all of the above.


I’m sure you can see at least on a certain level how ludicrous all of that is.

That, GTA, is what sweeping under the rug looks like.  You and others have set the bar so high for a victim to jump over that there is never any situation that would meet your definition of sexual harassment, abuse, proper evidence, or something worth reporting unless it is a rape captured on video or some sort of abuse involving witnesses, who would also need to meet your credibility standards.


Can you see what you're doing, what you're defending, and what you're suggesting?





« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 10:27:30 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Heidi
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« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2018, 10:27:40 am »

Written by GTA- Scout has also claimed money was offered to "silence her", yet she has also failed to prove this with any physical evidence, while others say that this was generous severance packaged offered to an employee of the church, with a non- disclosure statement which is standard practice.  I would like to believe that ECC would also have documentation of this severance packaged offered, but this is something I don't know so I cannot say. "  ( from GTA)  -


GTA and others- In response to the above statement-

I will add to this comment also-  One thing that was clearly communicated to me in 2002 was that The Berlin Church plant was not an Evergreen Church plant.  Again- The Berlin Chruch plant was not an Evergreen church plant.  John and the Berlin church plant were under the guidance of GCM- not Evergreen.  It was a GCM church plant.
 I found this out because I had some concerns that I tried to address with some of the Evergreen Pastors.  I addressed these concerns with John van Dyck, Brent Knox, Mark Darling, Mark Bowen, Doug Patterson and the head of GCM at the time- Jeff Kern.  My concerns were clearly communicated to all of them.
Evergreen did not step in to resolved these issues.  One reason,(I was told) was that John was not under their leadership anymore.  John was not an Evergreen Pastor or employee anymore.  So why would EVERGREEN have offered a Severance package to John when he came home from Berlin.  He was not an Evergreen employee . He was employed by GCM.  
As an Evergreen attender at the time, this was all surprising news to me.   ( and sad )

Heidi
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 10:46:17 am by Heidi » Logged
Huldah
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« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2018, 10:33:13 am »

Here is my conspiracy theory...that you guys (some people on the forum) want to see this situation be used to push your own personal agenda against the church. 

Just curious, what do you think that agenda is?
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arrogantcat
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« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2018, 10:46:51 am »

That the Berlin church was a GCM plant was made abundantly clear at the time.
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Heidi
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« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2018, 11:10:23 am »

When I found out about the money offer- It was troubling.  It was unpure to me, and unbiblical.
It left me with a lot more questions.  More of my trust was eroded in the leadership.  The integrity of Evergreen Church and this movement were concerning me.
I did not find out about the money offer until much later- 2012 maybe.  (the money offer with strings attached to not talk.)

When John and Suzanne told me they had been offered money if they signed a non-disclousure, stating that they would not talk about issues with Evergreen.  I was so glad they had not signed anything, and I was mad that Evergreen would have done anything like that. 
 When there is truth and integrity within a business or church I do not think things need to be covered up.  Why??

I had been a part of GCM and Evergreen from 1982-2016.  It took a lot for my husband and I to finally leave. The Holy spirit make things more and more clear, that for me it was not a healthy place.  
Heidi



« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 11:12:53 am by Heidi » Logged
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