Faithwalkers 2011

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[Grounded]

Linda,

That was the first conference in 2003. Only about 400 people were there. Now Faithwalkers is pushed so much that Christmas is almost secondary. Do the family thing and then the rest of the week is reserved for Faithwalkers to hear the same people talk about the same things- just re-packaged.
McCotter was there with his wife and some of his kids (there are 9- very GC). I knew his son Titus, who was not like his dad, from attending college at Colorado State University during the late 90's-2000. Titus just showed up one year, but he did not hold to the "loyalty to the church" philosophy. His family went to a Baptist church in Vail, Colorado. McCotter did what he set out to do and made a fortune. His views apparently changed in relation to the Church.
As for the Conference, the McCotters were invited to come- I think it was an attempt to show him what they were doing and how successful they were all those years later. There was a Rock star appeal to it all, McCotter down-played it and sat quietly with his family. It was obvious they would have loved to have him back as one of their own.
I went to that conference kind of on a whim. I enjoyed it at the time. And just like so many other people I wanted to be a pastor someday. But at the fourth Faithwalkers during the last seesion Mark Darling asked everyone in the room to stand up and pledge that they would stay in GC for life. I heard this many times before, but at that point it began to change. I was unsettled by it and by the end of 2008 I left after moving a few years earlier to be a part of a church plant. It took about two years of thinking and praying, as well as seeing some things that seemed misleading before I left. By the way, most of the people in that church never bothered to contact me again.

[Linda]

This is all so enlightening.

I remember listening to a Faithwalkers message (they all merge together so I'm not sure who the speaker was, but it was one of the big dogs on the board) where they had all the young men in the room stand to be counted as those who wanted to commit for life and be an elder. Then, they had all the women stand to support them, or something like that. Does that ring a bell as being one that any of you were at?

[Grounded]

That was 2007.

[BTDT]

Time2Write -- thank you so much for writing what you did.  Our entire church left GC in the early 90s, and I had wondered how GC[A]C had fallen from "still trying to reform" to "back to the bad old days".  You really filled in some gaps for me. 

Under Jeff Kern, the staff (employed by GCM, yet serving in churches under GCC) were given seminary training through Columbia and Moody in the mid-90's. By the late 90's, GCM moved to Orlando and Kern was strongly influenced by more Reformed thinkers, like Luder Whitlock, who steered the seminary training towards the 'Excelsis' program.

That really explains my positive experience with a GCM church several years ago, and I think it validates the positive reports many GCM churches get here in this forum.

Also, the Weakness Paper was not given to church members when it was published

A small nit to pick here -- at GCC/Maryland, the weakness/apology paper was distributed to members, at a special all-church meeting.  I remember Dennis Clark and Dave Bovenmyer playing key roles in that meeting, along with some of the other Maryland leaders (who were also the national leaders -- lucky us). 

Even at Valley Brook (new name for GCC of Maryland), there was some dissent over how much the church and GC as a whole should change.  That divergence eventually led to the Valley Brook / Oak Ridge split, and Valley Brook left GC.

I'm very sad to see how the old hard-liners have come back to power at GC[A]C.
-Ed-

[askingquestionsaboutGCI]

Wow, BTDT, as I've mentioned to you before, I was at Valley Brook during the time of the "Great Split", and I knew nothing of the Error paper until I read about it on here.  I must've missed that particular meeting, or had my head buried too deeply, or something...... When I tried to figure out what was going on back then, I kept getting vague answers of "differences in vision" type of stuff.....

[Linda]

I have never heard of the "Great Split". Very interesting.

When was this?

[BTDT]

At times I wonder how much of the anger towards GC is directed at a few churches.

I think it depends on the time period in question.  Folks like me, who had our bad experiences a long time ago, may be more likely to be angry with the entire movement.  The bad stuff was pretty widespread then.  Looking at the more recent experiences posted on this board, though, does seem to point to a set of several churches that still have those same issues.

I do think that GC has some inherent theological errors which will cause these problems to continue to arise

I wonder if a misguided definition of "unity" and "loyalty" contributes strongly to that.  The leaders of a few of the churches that still get problem reports are on the GCC board.  I wonder sometimes if the board puts "loyalty" to each other above digging deeply into these churches.  I'm not at their meetings, so I don't know; but I *do* remember how much the GC leaders used to cover for each other.

It would be very interesting to see who had bad experiences from what churches. My initial observations would lead me to guess that it would run close to the McCotter line of discipleship out of Ames, which spread to Minneapolis (Darling/Knox), Whitney(Rick and Rory) churches (Omaha, K-State and wherever else they went), Des Moines (Rude), and Ft. Collins (Meyer). I believe that until the mid to late 90's, all of these churches were part of the same region or sub-region.

That seems to make a lot of sense to me, based on what I've read here over the last few years. 

I don't understand why GC doesn't require its member churches to stay in line with the Apology Letter.  That simple step may go a long way toward correcting the problems that remain.

[BTDT]

Hi, Asking -

Wow, BTDT, as I've mentioned to you before, I was at Valley Brook during the time of the "Great Split", and I knew nothing of the Error paper until I read about it on here.  I must've missed that particular meeting, or had my head buried too deeply, or something......

It's been over 20 years, so I don't remember a lot of details, but I'm thinking it was right around the time the letter came out, which would put it in 1991.  Around that same time, maybe even before the letter came out, Valley Brook was going through a kind of reform process, and we started having lots of classes and discussions about individual gifts, personality types and how they fit together, stuff like that.  A lot happening at once.

[BTDT]

I have never heard of the "Great Split". Very interesting.

When was this?

Hi, Linda -- around 1993.  Valley Brook had 5 pastors at the time:  Steve Hogan, Dennis Clark, Dan Baty, Steve Huhta and Rob Lamp.  Steve (Hogan) and Dennis left and started Oak Ridge Community Church; the other three stayed to pastor VBCC.

The thing I remember being shared publicly at that time was that there were 2 different opinions of how to "do church" -- seeker-oriented vs. Christian-oriented, deep teachings on Sunday vs. deep teaching in smaller groups at other times, things like that.  Over time and many conversations, though, I started to see that the differences ran much deeper.  Things like:  stay in GC vs. leave GC, pastor-led vs. congregational oversight, focus on healing vs. focus on "moving on", the role of pastoral counseling, deeper stuff like that. 

I didn't get any indication that there were personal disputes among the pastors, just honest differences of opinion.

[askingquestionsaboutGCI]

We didn't join Valley Brook until around 1991 or 1992, so I probably missed this.  Do you remember what year VBCC and Oak Ridge split?

[Linda]

So how did Dennis get to where he is now?

Is it just me, or does it seem fishy that the talking points for GCC leadership are "that was then, this is now" as they try to dissociate from the days of McCotter, but the glaring obvious is that 2/3rds of the founding apostles still sit on the national board. Also, Dennis Clark, is a co-author with McCotter on that horrific piece of theology--the book on leadership.

No one seems to be bothered by the fact that Mr. Clark has never retracted/corrected that awful teaching.

Sadly, the GCC way seems to be, correct/apologize as unpublicly as possible. It's almost as if they like the old teaching, but not the label cult/sect/TACO.

[Rev. Russ Westbrook]

So how did Dennis get to where he is now?

Is it just me, or does it seem fishy that the talking points for GCC leadership are "that was then, this is now" as they try to dissociate from the days of McCotter, but the glaring obvious is that 2/3rds of the founding apostles still sit on the national board. Also, Dennis Clark, is a co-author with McCotter on that horrific piece of theology--the book on leadership.

No one seems to be bothered by the fact that Mr. Clark has never retracted/corrected that awful teaching.

Sadly, the GCC way seems to be, correct/apologize as unpublicly as possible. It's almost as if they like the old teaching, but not the label cult/sect/TACO.

"Apostles"?  Considering the Scripture-normative requirements for an Apostle is that they have been with the disciaples from the baptism of John all through the Lord's earthy ministry (Acts 1), their board must have some SERIOUS gerontology- adaptation issues.....

I'm not even sure I want to KNOW the meaning of "TACO" (although I am now hungery; thanks bunches.)  :>P

[Linda]

McCotter liked to use equivocation on the word "apostle". It also has the meaning of "missionary". So, when someone pointed out that an "apostle" apostle (the real kind) had to have seen Jesus, he would say he didn't mean that kind of apostle. However, I believe that while when pressed they would dismiss the idea of apostolic authority, they really believed they had it.

A TACO is a term that was coined by Larry Pile, I believe. Totalist Aberrant Christian Organization. It's sort of a name for a group that has their theology close on paper, but something is "off". Here is his take.

Groups with these restrictive characteristics I have labeled “totalist aberrant Christian organizations” (TACOs). They are “totalist” by virtue of their attempts to control almost every area of the member’s life. They are “aberrant” in that they teach doctrines and practices that, though they cannot be called actually heretical, they are yet “eccentric” in the literal sense of “off center” – out of line with historic, orthodox Christianity. Thus they must be recognized as genuine, if non-mainstream, “Christian organizations.” The term TACO is appropriate for another reason: the groups are so close to the truth, and the error is so subtle, that when one tries to get a grip on the problem one has great difficulty holding things together long enough to get a good “bite” on it! These things will be made clear as we look more closely at each of Enroth’s points (under slightly different labels), beginning with one he doesn’t mention specifically.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, you are only partly correct in your last post.  McCotter's and Clark's book is all about why the AUTHORITY and title of apostles do continue today, only the biblical qualifications no longer apply.  Remember, they wrote that without the authority and literal presence of the apostles GC would not be able to win the world for Christ in their lifetime and become as ineffective as every other denomination. 

Finally, "apostle" never generically meant "wandering church planting evangelist" (i.e. "missionary" in the modern sense), rather it meant "a person appointed to be someone's project-specific volunteer servant."  Just because such people went on "missions" does not make them a "missionary" in the Greek (that language mix up did not occur until centuries later with the use of Latin).

Blessings.

[askingquestionsaboutGCI]

My personal view is that if someone is called to plant a church, the Holy Spirit will provide all the necessary fulness in order for that fledgling church to survive and grow. The subtle danger can be if the system church planters are being produced from see the work of being a church planter as more of a command on their life, rather than a calling. In a system, such as GCx, which has inherent tendencies to move towards authoritarianism, an improper view of gifting can lead to superhero status, especially when looking towards the pioneering church planter. For those who have seen behind the curtain, think about how much focus and honor is given to the ritual of the Golden Bus Award (an annual award given to a church-planter bestowed at the annual pastor's conference).

"Golden Bus Award"?  This is the first I've ever heard of this -- care to elaborate a bit on its history?

[Linda]

Golden Bus Award?! Oh, dear. They really long for the good, old days. I would love to see a list of the winners!

EAS, So, McCotter thought he was an apostle as in Paul and Peter and James and John? I remember in the book he gives a disclaimer about the word and we have in writing from the ECC pastors that they do not believe in apostles in the "do miracles" sense.

[EverAStudent]

Hi Linda.  Essentially correct.  

McCotter and Clark wrote (and having given due credit to Sam for his doctrinal "help" in their conference video) that "modern apostles" should have all the command authority of Matthew, John, and especially Paul even though the modern apostle cannot and need not:  perform miracles, be an eyewitness of the risen Lord, receive verbal prophecies, or write the special revelations of Scripture.  

To me it seems that GC has held on to McCotter's and Clark's definition of apostle to this day.  McCotter and Clark's emphasis was that anyone can become an apostle in the same non-miraculous way that Paul did but gain all the church-leadership and edict-issuing authority Paul had.  

Needless to say they utterly misunderstand the Scriptures in this matter.  Paul defended his apostleship as having been derived in exactly the same manner as the rest of the "greater" apostles (i.e. given by Christ in person) with all the same giftings: ability to perform signs and miracles, ability to prophesy, mandate to write Scriptures, and having been an eyewitness that Christ bodily rose from the tomb and was alive.  Paul even claimed to have been taught by Jesus in person!  (read: http://thefaithfulword.org/apostlepageone.html )

Sadly, GC leadership never understood from the Word how Paul became an apostle and so they desire to use him as some form of atypical example.  Such poor "teaching" is really based on their biblical ignorance.  

[BTDT]

We didn't join Valley Brook until around 1991 or 1992, so I probably missed this.  Do you remember what year VBCC and Oak Ridge split?

I believe it was 1993.  The Oak Ridge web site (http://www.oakridgecc.org/about/) says they were formed in 1993.  From my own life experiences, I am sure it was between 1992 and 1994, inclusive.  There was a lot of discussion, some info meetings, and VBCC attendees were asked which church they were thinking of going to.  Maybe all that was more directed at the core members, though.

FWIW, I also found a reference from the Baltimore Sun, that said Valley Brook was founded in 1987:  http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-02-12/news/1993043263_1_congregations-valley-brook-community-church  That makes the timeline look something like this:

1986: McCotter leaves GC (and therefore GCC of Maryland)
1987: GCC of Maryland becomes Valley Brook Community Church
1991: Apology letter / weakness paper written and presented to VBCC folks
1993: Valley Brook / Oak Ridge split
1993/1994 timeframe (but I think 1994): Valley Brook leaves Great Commission

[rogerborg]

As normal I get a particular odd thrill for this.  The reasons why?  I have zero idea.  I think it's because every single. single. year. I get a hold of that I in the morning not actually nuts, as well as really { a controlling, dangerous group.  I feel sorry for the people continue to involved, and additionally I want they might prevent because a particular organization.  However, it sure is nice to examine it from the outside and also not the inside. 
By just how, I hope everyone here is having a lovely Christmas period.  I feel like I've been away so much lately from here.  I'm not moving in.  It's just that fortunately a lot of good close friends we got in the movement actually KEPT THE MOVEMENT this present year!  PTL.  I have always been so happy about this, as well as discover myself a lot less preoccupied with the goings on.  Unfortunately, "Faithwalkazzz" constantly will get me personally a bit excited.  I think it's a pleasant break after all of the post Christmas mellow.  I guess by which time I'm done for a little harsh for my mellow?

[newcreature]

rogerborg (see post above) is apparently another fraud/bot/spammer. His post is a badly reformatted post that Agatha posted near the beginning of this thread last year:

As usual I get an odd thrill for this.  Why?  I have no idea.  I think it's because every. single. year. I find that I am not actually nuts, and they really are a controlling, dangerous group.  I feel sorry for the people still involved, and I wish they would stop as an organization.  But, it sure is nice to look at it from the outside and not the inside. 

By the way, I hope everyone here is having a lovely Christmas season.  I feel like I've been away so much lately from here.  I'm not really moving on.  It's just that thankfully so many good friends we had in the movement actually LEFT THE MOVEMENT this year!  PTL.  I am so happy about this, and find myself much less preoccupied with the goings on.  However, "Faithwalkazzz" always gets me a bit excited.  I think it's a nice break after all of the post Christmas mellow.  I guess by that time I'm ready for a little harsh for my mellow?

Please delete rogerborg's posts and membership along with those of jackhandin05 and torinme56.