Faithwalkers West 2009

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[EverAStudent]

someone pointed out that they that seminary essential. I disagree. I do think that seminary is a wonderful thing, but I neither of my pastors have been to seminary. Yet, I have never heard an incorrect interpretation from them.

If the uneducated pastors cannot recognize an incorrect interpretation, how will anyone they have trained?

However, do you think that Peter or the majority of the pastors in the early church had formal training?

That such a question can be posed with sincerity demonstrates the necessity of formal training.  

Peter, the rest of the Twelve, and the Seventy were trained by Jesus non-stop for three years in every doctrine that was to become the Christian faith.  Further, Jesus exposited the Old Testament for them to teach them both how to interpret it and how to identify the prophecies concerning Him in them.  

It might be argued, "Well that is not formal training because Jesus was not running a seminary."  What Jesus did was the most formal training the Jews offered in that day and age.  To follow a rabbi required one to give up their ordinary life concerns and to follow the rabbi full time.  Full time meant not having an outside vocation, but giving up family, friends, and money to follow the teacher around.  They lived with the rabbi, slept near the rabbi, and ate every meal with the rabbi.  NOTHING like it exists today, though on-campus seminary comes closest.

To assert that Peter and the Twelve (and the Seventy) never received "formal religious training" is an incorrect statement that uncovers the desperate need for better training for pastors, deacons, and the laymen today.

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Note Added:  This dislike GC has for disciplined religious education reminds me of how they fell into the "modern aposlteship" error.  They misunderstood passages like Ephesians 4, thinking it was a discussion about Jesus promising to always give out the spiritual gifts instead of a discussion that stated that Jesus originally trained the Twelve (apostles and prophets) and the Seventy to be not only apostles and prophets but also evangelists and pastor-teachers.  Ephesians 4 was a statement affirming that the doctrines we inherited from the Twelve and the Seventy can be thoroughly trusted as the basis for all Christian teaching.  Check out this blog: http://craigwbooth.xanga.com/719344136/is-every-spiritual-gift-given-continuously-even-to-this-day/

[Huldah]

EverAStudent, I agree with the points you've made. I would also like to point out that Peter and the other Apostles had the additional benefit of having received training in their native language, or at least in a language in which they were fluent. The modern American pastor is typically a native speaker of English, or possibly Spanish, dealing with a translation of texts originally written in archaic Greek or Aramaic, for a primary audience whose culture and assumptions were often very different from ours. This isn't an insurmountable obstacle to the Holy Spirit, Who no doubt supplies much of the lack in parts of the world where seminary training is simply unavailable. GC pastors, on the other hand, could avail themselves of good formal training, but choose not to. In my experience, GC pastors were comfortable teaching about topics which they had not thoroughly researched. When I showed one of them a passage to the contrary, he hadn't even been aware that it existed, nor did he alter his teaching after I pointed it out.

Jat5453, you wrote that, "Pastors need to do their research. I agree that there is no excuse for them not to." You are correct. Now I ask you, do you do your research, so that you know whether you're being led astray or not? Do you hold your pastors accountable for what they teach? Edited to Add: If you haven't given this any thought, I wish you would--and this isn't written with the intention of turning you against your GCM friends. It's easy to understand that you, having been raised in GCM, find some of our posts disturbing. The GCM we're describing probably sounds nothing like the one you grew up in. However, I personally was very much in denial about the extent of the problem, even as I was leaving the church. It had been drummed into me that they were "God's best," so I kept forcing myself to defend them from criticism even after I left. It took a real shock to fully open my eyes, which I may write about later on, as God leads. If I had understood that Christ is the only mediator between God and me, instead of allowing the GC leadership to assume that role, I would have saved myself tremendous heartache.

[trthskr]

Ummm...I just like....really really love you guys right now.  As soon as I read the post about Peter not receiving formal training...I said to myself, Yes, except for when he spent a HUGE amount of time with Jesus.  And then a few posts later, there it was.  I've learned so much more about being careful with interpretation of the Bible since leaving GCM, and I think that is one of the greatest benefits I gained from going through that whole ordeal.  You can tell other people all you want that they need to be careful about interpretation, but unless they have been hurt by false teachings like we have, they won't understand why.  There are so many christian authors today who will misinterpret verses in their happy-go-lucky books and I can see how people may think that because it makes them feel good, it can't really be that bad.  It can be sooo dangerous.  Ah....anyways, Happy New Years to all of you and much love. 
 

[Rebekah]

I just listened to the Rick and Rory Faithwalkers audio that Agatha posted. Oh my!

Rory's sermon in a nutshell: "These are the weird things that I do every day. Do them, too. Oh, and, by the way, we're watching and judging you."

Rick's sermon (at the end) in a nutshell: "You have to be able to forget all the crazy things we say that 'hurt' you [i.e., ruin your life]; I know I can't remember anything I ever say. I'm always surprised that other people actually remember that bad things happen to them because of my words. If you're going to be a true faithwalker, you can't think about the past but only the future."

[Rebekah]

Kurt J.'s message about decision-making and finding God's will for your life is actually pretty good.

He mentions several times how much freedom we have to choose one thing over the other based on our logic and our desires. You don't often hear GC pastors wanting you to listen to your own preferences and desires to find the best path for your life.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear this. There's a lot more freedom in his views than I've heard in other messages.

On the down side, he does really stress "getting counsel," though he talks about it more like "two heads are better than one" instead of "your elder knows what's best for you."

[AgathaL'Orange]

Rebekah!  Yes, Rick and Rory's message seemed to encourage OCD tendencies.  Having dealt with some of these things with people that I know, it was odd to me that people would ever equate tiny little habits like capitalization with godly living.  And Rick's message was offensive in that he expected everyone to LISTEN and FOLLOW their "tips" (commands), but then he himself doesn't even remember what he says... Huh?  That doesn't add up.  And I am still very upset by his correcting people while he was supposedly praying.  If I had been a man in that room with a hat on, I would have totally felt like a little maggot at that point.  Well, in my GC days, that is and if I had been a man.  Lol.  You all know what I mean...

[Linda]

Here's a question: How did he know the guys were praying with their hats on? He must have had his eyes open!!!!!!!

[AgathaL'Orange]

Good times tonight on Dcomm!

[Rebekah]

Agatha and Linda,
I know! Didn't Rory say he never prayed with his eyes open? (Or maybe not, I can't remember for sure.)

The hypocrisy of "Write this down. Download this message and listen to it again and again." with "I said what? when? You must be weirdly obsessed and unforgiving to remember that thing I said all those years ago..."

And, of course, Rory's "I have OCD and so should you" section of the sermon was WILD!

BTW, I thought Mark Darling's main session was pretty tame, but maybe I wasn't listening closely enough?!?

Hehehehe I love that they post all this stuff online! Next up: Pat Sokoll's main session.

[Linda]

The only reason that I know he mentioned never praying with his eyes open was because I had a horrible cold last week so I had time to listen. However, I couldn't concentrate, so I started writing down the points. The next day I looked at my notes and the not praying with your eyes open just jumped out at me. Then, I remembered the prayer where guys were shamed for praying with their hats on and I was amused.

The part about people calling Rick to say they were hurt by things he said in the past was very sad. How can you get to be in a position of leadership like that and not know the basics about a humble apology? The person who offended someone NEVER gets to tell the offended person to "get over it". That is a sure sign of an insincere apology.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Here is a highlight from Pat Sokoll's message:  "Sheep need shepherds.  My personal opinion, my apologies to the Whitney clan and all you who care about sheep.  But in my opinion, the only reason sheep were invented is to show the foolishness, and the... the need, the desperate state of human beings.  They are perfect.  Because they're so dumb.  And they're so helpless.  And that's why men love to take care of them because there's this response.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  And they're just this picture of needing care.  And so shepherds give their heart to care for them cause that's what shepherds do;  and that's what your shepherd does.  And there's this....and it's been going for a long long time.  Culturally.  That this picture of you need more knowledge.  You need to understand greek!  You need so much information.  And you don't!  It's really pretty simple.  It's really pretty simple. You need to connect with people.  You need to be in the context that God...  these simple plans and you need to listen to the word of God as it is brought to you.  God establishes certain authorities, and the church that you're in is one of them.  And it is so vital to your health.  There's so many voices out there and we... and we worship them and we and we listen to them, and we think, Wow!  if I could... this guy is such a skillful teacher.  Maybe he's really creative; maybe he's really good entertaining, and maybe he's really funny.  But he does not know you.  And he does not get up during the week and pray over your soul and your marriage and your career.  He cannot teach you the whole counsel of God.  He can pass on trivia.  He can pass on facts.   But teaching and preaching is far more than that.  It is a context of relationship that leads to health.  God's done it.  Your shepherd must know you.  Know your constant... and and here's... just so you know this... You may not feel this way.  Sometimes we can say, I wish I lived there.   I wish my husband or wife was that way.  I wish I had this job.  I wish I had this pastor.  Or I wish I could be in that church.  Or I wish I could be in a different context.  Here's what you need to understand before you think that way.  God gave you the pastor in your life.  The leader in your life is God's best gift to you for this season and this time.  I don't know what the future holds, but I do know, if it changes it should be with the blessing of that gift."

[AgathaL'Orange]

I really don't feel like writing any more of his message out.  I would say thought that Pat Sokoll's message is the ESSENCE of what is wrong with GCwhatever. 

If you were ever wondering about GC... it's pretty much all here.http://gccweb.org/podcasts/episode-777/fw09-session-7-pat-sokall.mp3

[Linda]

God establishes certain authorities, and the church that you're in is one of them.

Allah willed it?

Here's what you need to understand before you think that way.  God gave you the pastor in your life.

Allah willed it?

Does this rationale apply to everything in life?

I'm at this church, and God is sovereign, so obviously this is where He wants me.
I'm sitting at a conference, and God is sovereign, so obviously every word being said is from God and for me cuz God could have stopped me from being here.
I'm typing a comment on a forum, and God is sovereign, He could have me type other words, but I'm typing these words, so obviously these words are from God.
I'm "fill in the blank", and God is sovereign, so obviously this is what God wants me to be doing right now.

Put on your thinking caps people. Oh, and learning a little Greek might not hurt.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Did you catch this,Linda? 

 

Sometimes we can say, I wish I lived there.   I wish my husband or wife was that way.  I wish I had this job.  I wish I had this pastor.  Or I wish I could be in that church.  Or I wish I could be in a different context.  Here's what you need to understand before you think that way.  God gave you the pastor in your life.  The leader in your life is God's best gift to you for this season and this time.  I don't know what the future holds, but I do know, if it changes it should be with the blessing of that gift.

And also, the message was even worse after that, but I was tired of typing.  He actually says that if the church takes your money and does something dumb with it, that's their problem, not yours.  They are accountable.  Your job is to obey everything, EVERYTHING they tell you to do.  It's there.  I'm telling you this message is big. 

[EverAStudent]

Make no mistake about it, when you voluntarily "join" a church you have "hired" the pastors to be shepherd for you.  That is your decision and you should take it seriously.  Check out their qualifications before you join up.  Don't blame God for your poor decision making or lack of investigation.  Interview them before you join, ask questions, that is your responsibility.

And when you leave a church, voluntarily, you are firing that pastoral staff from being shepherd for you.  


Article on leaving a church:  http://thefaithfulword.org/leavingchurch.html

[AgathaL'Orange]

And by the way, Linda, you made me laugh!   I think I need to use pi to figure out his reasoning it's so circular!  EAS... it IS up to us to be discerning! 

[Linda]

EAS,
I agree that spiritual leaders are in authority over the church in matters pertaining to spiritual things--so long as they are faithful to Scripture.

The idea that if the pastor tells you to do something, your job is to obey and if the pastor was wrong, you don't have to worry because the pastor is the one who has to give an account is absolutely WRONG. We were actually told that by a pastor sitting on the board. Unbelievable.

I have used this example of the police before, but I like it so will repeat it. A policeman has authority over me to enforce the law. He/she can pull me over and issue me a warning or write me a ticket, if I am breaking the law. The policeman does not have the authority to tell me what to make for breakfast, how to manage my household, where to shop, etc. His authority is limited.

I think of "lording it over" as a spiritual leader using his position to manage areas of a person's life that he has no business managing.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, we are in agreement on this.  As I have written before, the English translations do not really give the sense of the passage.  It does not mean "obey your leaders" as much as it means "be convinced by their teaching."  And yes, they will give an account for how they attempted to convince you to serve God via their teaching. 

They are to teach doctrine and godliness, spiritual shepherds; they are not to be masters that are to be obeyed.

[puff of purple smoke]

God gave you the pastor in your life.  The leader in your life is God's best gift to you for this season and this time.  I don't know what the future holds, but I do know, if it changes it should be with the blessing of that gift.

The ole GC "we have you now" catch-22. I remember shortly after I joined a GC church there was a sermon on how God in his sovereignty had placed me with THIS SPECIFIC CHURCH and so I needed to stay there until the pastors charged with authority over me gave me counsel to go elsewhere (never going to happen). (The verses cited as proof for this were Acts 17:26-27) Being fairly new to the church I wondered, "Doesn't that mean God placed me in my PREVIOUS church also, and since I didn't ask for permission from my previous pastor to leave that I should actually go back to that church and not be in this one?" I didn't really buy either conclusion so I just kind of ignored that message. Just one of many early warning signs I somehow ignored because I naively believed all "Christian churches" were healthy churches (wrong).

[Immortal_Raven]

That's a huge thing for a lot of people.  GC butters all these high ranking leaders up, especially when they are coming to your town.  "Hey, Mark Darling is speaking at the conference.  He's done this, that, the other thing, etc..."  People get so puffed up about these big leaders that they take the sermons and messages as gospel and don't question anything they say, at all.  I forget the reference, but there is a verse in the NIV Bible that says to test the spirits to see if they are from God.  Most GCers don't.  I can honestly say that hearing Rory Whitney speak was the beginning of the end for me with GC.  Don't take anything at face value.  My current pastor says that at least once a month during a sermon.  He encourages you to go to the Scriptures and see for yourself.  That's the way it should be.  Scripture is divine, man is sinful.

-Immortal_raven