Findings of Investigation Made Public

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[DarthVader]

Impressive thread. I feel God's love moving in this group.

Oneofmany
“I want to do something, anything, to stop these evil men from deceiving more people. After the recent sermons I no longer want to hear them apologize or repent. I simply do not believe that they are men of God. They serve themselves. And another.”

Searching
“I'm sorry, but these men have no integrity.”

GodisFaithful
“At this point I think most of the pastors at Evergreen are desperately trying to hang on to their glory days, their faithful followers, control and authority, and their "good name."’

There is a verse that comes to mind Mango - something about “a plank in one’s eye” - wish you peace and blessings

[Linda]

I finally listened to both messages and I am so sad.

"I know your hearts are troubled and mine is too. And I grieve what happened to Mark Darling; it’s been unfair; it’s been unjust.  He’s been alone. It’s been tough.  He’s meant a lot to me over the years.  He has sharpened me in more ways than I can count.  Many times he’s made me uncomfortable.  Do you know what I mean, by that?  He knows how to make us uncomfortable, which is really good.   And I know that I would not even be standing here today if it weren’t for his input into my life.  God’s worked through him to me.  And so my heart is troubled.  But I take heart because Jesus has overcome the world.  The world will not win in the end." –Brent Knox at the Rock

Where to begin?

First, the investigation is not over. I agree with the previous posts that mention this. Clearly this was an attempt to influence not just attenders, but the BOT members present. Plus, even if the outcome is rigged (we all know the BOT answers to the elders who chose them and who ultimately have the final say and Brent is one of the chief elders) it was really an unwise move to tip his hand before decisions by the BOT were made. It shows they have already decided the outcome. Mark has been treated unjustly and unfairly. That's their story and they're sticking to it. The end.

Second, the thing that strikes me, as mentioned by Barb, is that they don't ever say these things are untrue. The discussion is framed in "fairness" terms and "loyalty" terms ('He's meant a lot to me over the years").

Thirdly, this smacks of pride. There are 9 people claiming some type of abuse or cover ups by pastors. If there is a smidgen of truth to any of the claims, the only humble response is "It happened, it was wrong, we are sorry, we will do what we can to make it right and assure that it never happens again."

Fourth, the response leads me to surmise that they know there is some truth to the accusations so now all they can do is frame it in such a way to make those alleging abuse look like they did something wrong. Sin leveling is the term, I believe. Using terms like "unfair" and "unjust" lead me to wonder if this is the case. It would look something like this, "There were some misunderstood situations that happened many years ago, Mark apologized for the misunderstanding, and so it was dealt with. It is "unfair" for the women to bring up something that was already dealt with." Or, "It was improper for Suzanne to Tweet her concerns or talk with the media. Going public with things like that is "unjust". She should have come to us first. (Ignoring the fact that she and many others who have stepped bravely forward did inform some elders.)"

Shepherds should care for the flock first. They should not attack the flock while defending each other especially when they have commissioned an investigation and are not in possession of many of the facts.

I believe Brent quoted 2 Peter 3:9. "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." ECC leaders, God has been very patient toward you for many years. Do the right thing. Admit any fault you have in this. Repent of any sin or any cover up of sin. The sooner you do it, the better for you.

Luke 18:7
For all that is secret will eventually be brought into the open, and everything that is concealed will be brought to light and made known to all.

[GodisFaithful]

Brent probably thinks it is unfair that you are  scrutinizing and evaluating his talk. They are used to being in their little bubble where they condition people not to question or criticize the pastors. I have a friend who was told by Brent, "Your role is not to question. That is not your role. Your role is to follow the pastor's lead."

Are they going to hide their sermons now for a while, hoping the prying eyes will go away?

What does Brent consider just? Pretend it didn't happen? Go to Mark privately and have him tell you that you took it wrong? Go to the other pastors and have them cross out what you were going to say? He seems to have a very skewed view of what is just.

[Linda]

FWIW, the talking points they've come up with appear to be 2 Samuel 16: 5-14. Here is the link to the message in New Hope.

http://www.evergreennewhope.com/listen?sapurl=Lyt2YnBkL2xiL21pLyt3NXYzeGpmP2JyYW5kaW5nPXRydWUmZW1iZWQ9dHJ1ZQ==

I guess the "take away" they want to leave us with is:

1. Suzanne along with those alleging abuse, and those who believe them and/or have posted Bible based warnings on this forum against GCC teaching on commitment for life to their church/movement or obedience to the self-appointed elders (who can trace their appointments all the way back to 1970 when McCotter/Clark/Martindale appointed each other as apostles and began appointing elders...seems legit) are Shimei. We are throwing stones.

2. I guess that means that the Mark D. figure in this story is David (the man who had blood on his hands because he committed adultery with Bathsheba and covered it up by having her husband Uriah killed).

3. So, that must mean Jeromy, et. al are represented by Abishai ("Let's behead these dead dogs!").

4. But, never fear, the David figure tells Abishai to let him curse, God will see this great wrong and maybe even replace cursing with good. Maybe that explains why they have stopped posting violent metaphors about whips when they really wanted to say, "Off with their heads!" The David figure told them not to do that.

My observations:

If you want to be David in this story, you have to own up to your sin. (See Psalm 51). If you don't own up to your sin. You don't get to be David. You need to have a broken and contrite heart if you want to be David.

Also, if we are using David as an example, who will be the Nathan figure in this story? You know, the guy who pointed out that David was actually a man of blood and said, "Thou art the man."  David's sin had great consequences throughout his life. He was a man of God because he acknowledged his sin and sought God's forgiveness and he was forgiven.

But there were consequences.

2 Samuel 12: 7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

David's sin affected him for the rest of his life. He knew it when Shimei called him a man of blood that he was, in fact, a man of blood.

What is the point of "preaching" this message? A rebuke? Whatever it is, it smacks of pride.

ECC needs to preach a message on brokenness. On true humility. On what it means to have a broken and contrite heart.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Linda, I absolutely agree that the point of these teachings was NOT to care for the flock. 

Let's consider a few sheep-focused things a church could address in this type of situation:

* To victims of abuse: regardless of the outcome of the investigation, if this is bringing up difficult memories, let us pray for you.  Let us recommend resources if you need extra support.  Know that Jesus spoke against abuse and that he can provide healing. 

* To confused members: we are so sorry you are experiencing angst of this level at your church.  It is difficult to love well and be in relationship during conflict.   We just want to acknowledge the pain you are experiencing  and we are here for you.

* Church, we are awaiting results of an investigation.  We want to reassure you that whatever happens next, even if it's painful, we will be okay if we follow God.  We seek his truth and his light and we know that in those things, God never fails us.  There may be loss, there may be conflict, but God is our foundation.  If there is difficulty ahead, he will walk us through it and we can trust HIM, and him alone, always.  We do not need to fear or try to control the outcome.

Instead they claim unfairness, focus on their OWN pain, emotionally manipulate, use the bible to suggest things--without saying them directly but still allowing easy misapplications by members.  Like, who does David represent in that teaching?  It could have nothing or everything to do with the Mark Darling situation but it's hard to know since that's what he opened the sermon with.  What would the average church member hear?

They did NOT say:

We are open to know the truth above all and are committed to doing whatever it takes to honor God.  If we have made mistakes, we are ready to own them.

Women, we value you in our churches and want to hear from you how we can serve you better. 

These messages were not for the benefit of the flock at all.  They were an attempt by leadership to try to maintain control.  Anyone is welcome to try to convince me otherwise, but it would take a lot. 

I finally listened to both messages and I am so sad.


Shepherds should care for the flock first. They should not attack the flock while defending each other especially when they have commissioned an investigation and are not in possession of many of the facts.

[GodisFaithful]

Looks like the findings of the investigation will not be made public, but what is becoming more and more public, before the BOT makes any kind of decision, is that the pastors are sneaking into their sermons what their take on all of the hoopla. They seem to be circling the wagons in  a show of what I see as false humility, already making up their minds that the "criticism" us unfair and laced with lies (then why an investigation, was it just for show?), and already deciding that God is going to see their distress as a church over this "criticism" and He no doubt will come to their aid and will make everything ok again, Mark will be reinstated, the lies of all these women will be seen for just what they are, lies, and the church will be all the stronger for it. Patience, people, patience, Jesus is going to come riding to our rescue.

Only, they are not waiting for Jesus, they are spinning the narrative themselves, deciding their fate and their exalted reputation, and trying desperately to bring as many followers along with them into the victorious future.

If only Mark Bowen had shed tears over the fact that he told falsehoods about John and Suzanne and their family which affected their reputation. If only he would care about other people's reputations more than his own, as a humble servant leader. If only at least some of his tears were tears of repentance, seeing where he has missed the mark in any way. If only he would see that he has been heavy handed and proud and impatient with people. (He was at the meeting where we were told to leave, all because we had some concerns.) If only he would see that he has some things to learn, besides that Jesus will make all things right in the end. We all need to be more humble, kind, patient. How about some tears like that? Are pastors of Evergreen in a special category because they need to uphold their image of impeccable character and after all, they have appointed each other. If you are appointed, you can't fall/fail in any major way, right?

If only some of his tears were for Suzanne, and for regret over not truly hearing her out and having deep concern for her. If only some of his tears were for not following through with keeping Mark Darling accountable to get some help in his issues with women. If only his tears were for other women who were treated in an inappropriate way following the issues he had with Suzanne. If only he truly wanted to have clean hands and a pure heart before God.

Personally, I see a church split brewing if the head honcho pastors continue this course. I just don't think a lot of people want to follow leaders who, instead of it being about Jesus, it is about them and their church, instead of Jesus' church. Or maybe only a few ask the hard questions, insist on accountability, and then move on. It just doesn't look good for Evergreen, from the outside looking in, and the drama will continue because the women aren't going away.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

GodisFaithful, thank your for those observations, and I absolutely agree. 

I did want to ask if anyone knows of any teachings that address any of the expressions of concern/repentance that I and others have pointed out are missing from the teachings posted on this forum, I'd be open to listening.  I find it especially troubling that they offer no support for victims of sexual abuse, but perhaps they have in other public contexts and I haven't heard it.  So if anyone has links (not just a generic "of course these men care about abuse victims, etc.") I'd like to hear.  And the public part is very important, because they have laid out a very troubling message from the pulpit, so other words would need to have equal exposure.  Like, you can't teach these things from the pulpit (unfair criticism, things being unjust, my/our own personal suffering) and then in a small group say "well, we care about abuse" and think the message carries the same weight. 

[Linda]

FYI: It was just brought to my attention that Brent has issued a disclaimer before his message at the rock.

Here is the link.

https://subsplash.com/rockthechurch/lb/mi/+jkn64yj

As it turns out, when he said Mark had been treated unfairly and unjustly, he didn't mean to imply that he was being dismissive of the charges or not neutral.

Sigh. Eye roll.

[Barb]

Here is a transcript of the "apology"

"Hello, this is Brent Knox, I spoke the following message at the Rock on May 25, 2018.  This was before the release of the report of the investigation researching allegations of sexual misconduct by Mark Darling and allegations of cover-up by Evergreen. I would like to acknowledge a mistake that I made during the message.  Several minutes into the message I said ‘I grieve of what has happened with Mark. It has been unfair, unjust.’ My heart was simply to convey empathy for how Mark has been spoken about on social media. And honestly, it’s been frustrating for me. I did not intend to imply innocence or guilt regarding the heart of the allegations. I understand how my statement could have been interpreted otherwise. Our resolve to being neutral remains. I also recognize that this has been a painful time for those sifting through their past experiences. While I have been frustrated with aspects of the process, I would not want my statement to be dismissive of the challenges others are facing. I regret the miscommunication that should have been more accurate.  Please accept my apology and enjoy the message. "

[OneOfMany]

...but isn’t this what you want them to start doing? Correct and apologize for mistakes? This is why some are frustrated. People are trying, but they seem to be wrong no matter what they do or don’t do...

Yes. However the statement appears disingenuous. A public speaker that backpedals after pressure applied leaves me wondering if there is genuine repentance at work or simply an attempt to save face.

Brent has used scripture to tell me that if I do not serve the church I will die. That God kills those who are not productive in bearing fruit and that he himself has watched as unproductive church members die. He has covered up Darlings abusive behaviors for years. He has been a key figure in creating an organization that uses manipulative means and scripture to place himself in power over others. I could go on. If he is repentant then I would not hear from him a statement that he"misspoke" and was not understood. Oh no. He would be on his knees begging God to forgive him and he would dedicate himself to radical change in GCM theology and practices. Current events are not a song and a dance. They are serious and there is not a hunt of repentance in what he said. Just another statement implying that he was misunderstood. He did not mean to imply. I do not believe him. He is not stupid. He knew what he was saying.

[Linda]

Agree, OOM.

Did peace take down his/her statement that you quoted?

[Peace]

Yes. I took my post down. I wrote it in haste and did not want to cause an argument. I don’t know Brent personally, nor do I attend an ECC church, but I heard his apology as an effort to do exactly what has been asked/demanded of him from many (including myself at times) to apologize and correct when mistakes are made.

[Phoenix]

Yes. However the statement appears disingenuous. A public speaker that backpedals after pressure applied leaves me wondering if there is genuine repentance at work or simply an attempt to save face.

You may be right but then in your world a public speaker never is afforded the chance to clarify their position.

Sure, it could be more of the same in this case but I think it is just as feasible that BK is grieved over the very public nature of this for a friend who is dear to him.  I ask that people here also remember that BK and the others at EC are humans too.  Careful to condemn, discount and distrust every single thing they say/do lest it be you someday.

[OneOfMany]

Yes. However the statement appears disingenuous. A public speaker that backpedals after pressure applied leaves me wondering if there is genuine repentance at work or simply an attempt to save face.

The statement Brent Knox made is typical of how things are handled in this organization. It is the same old word game that some of us have seen over and over and over again.

You may be right but then in your world a public speaker never is afforded the chance to clarify their position.

Sure, it could be more of the same in this case but I think it is just as feasible that BK is grieved over the very public nature of this for a friend who is dear to him.  I ask that people here also remember that BK and the others at EC are humans too.  Careful to condemn, discount and distrust every single thing they say/do lest it be you someday.

[DarthVader]

I do want to give Brent credit for this positive step. However, his message was delivered "live" to probably 100-150 people, probably another 25 missed it but listened to the sermon BEFORE the apology was added...and now a very small number of people will, as they listen to the sermon from weeks ago, hear the apology.  It seems like if the intent was sincere, Brent would make a sincere effort to share the apology with the many who were in the audience - e.g., I'm sure the Rock has a regular attender email list Brent could sent an apology to along with the link.  To my knowledge, this hasn't happened...from which it might be reasonable to infer Brent wants credit for the apology without most people actually hearing it.  It would be a bit like the NY Times printing an article with a major error then printing a retraction a week later in small print on page 10.

[Phoenix]

I do want to give Brent credit for this positive step. However, his message was delivered "live" to probably 100-150 people, probably another 25 missed it but listened to the sermon BEFORE the apology was added...and now a very small number of people will, as they listen to the sermon from weeks ago, hear the apology.  It seems like if the intent was sincere, Brent would make a sincere effort to share the apology with the many who were in the audience - e.g., I'm sure the Rock has a regular attender email list Brent could sent an apology to along with the link.  To my knowledge, this hasn't happened...from which it might be reasonable to infer Brent wants credit for the apology without most people actually hearing it.  It would be a bit like the NY Times printing an article with a major error then printing a retraction a week later in small print on page 10.

Agreed.

[AllOfGodsWordIsTruth]

"Yes. However the statement appears disingenuous. A public speaker that backpedals after pressure applied leaves me wondering if there is genuine repentance at work or simply an attempt to save face.

Brent has used scripture to tell me that if I do not serve the church I will die. That God kills those who are not productive in bearing fruit and that he himself has watched as unproductive church members die. He has covered up Darlings abusive behaviors for years. He has been a key figure in creating an organization that uses manipulative means and scripture to place himself in power over others. I could go on. If he is repentant then I would not hear from him a statement that he"misspoke" and was not understood. Oh no. He would be on his knees begging God to forgive him and he would dedicate himself to radical change in GCM theology and practices. Current events are not a song and a dance. They are serious and there is not a hunt of repentance in what he said. Just another statement implying that he was misunderstood. He did not mean to imply. I do not believe him. He is not stupid. He knew what he was saying."

Matthew 18:21-35 New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[a]

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[c] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Just curious, based on reading his apology, what exactly did he apologize for? I'm asking because it's not clear to me.

Yes. I took my post down. I wrote it in haste and did not want to cause an argument. I don’t know Brent personally, nor do I attend an ECC church, but I heard his apology as an effort to do exactly what has been asked/demanded of him from many (including myself at times) to apologize and correct when mistakes are made.

[Huldah]

To AllOfGodsWordIsTruth:  It's not unforgiving to point out evil or error. You can forgive an offender but still warn others if there's reason to believe that the offender is unrepentant.

I'm not saying that Brent Knox is unrepentant, because I don't know him. I'm just saying that forgiveness doesn't mean giving people an automatic pass and pretending no harm was done. Sometimes forgiveness requires grappling with the real and painful damage that the offender has inflicted, or continues to inflict.

[OneOfMany]

AllOfGodsWordIsTruth

I have been trying to decide how to respond to your post.

I have no idea why you posted the list of scriptures that you posted. You did not explain why you felt you needed to post those scriptures. Therefore my response might not hit the mark.

Abusive churches with poor personal boundaries often use forgiveness to continue in their sin. They cause harm or act unethically, immorally or abusively. The leaders apologize and that is supposed to be the end of it. Because they the leaders misrepresent what forgiveness is. They take scriptures like the ones you posted to silence people when an ongoing path of healing is required. In many cases the path of forgiveness takes years, the healing years if it ever really is complete.

Evergreen loves to preach from the stage that you choose to forgive and BAM all is over. Move on now. And that is not biblical, natural nor healthy.