Futility and Escape

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[boboso]

All,

Its been fairly quiet here lately.

Although we've been out for nearly 2 years now, we still hear stories about the same people passing around the same bondage and controlling "their" congregations. We did see some people "wake up" out of this mess and start the healing process, but it's discouraging to still know so many (who may know better) stay in and get beaten down.

Does anyone here personally know some "leadership" who have made the transition out of GCx? I'm curious to hear at what "points" some of these folks decided they needed a change. Also, if the former "leaders" were able to keep some relationships and help others out of the mire.

Thanks.

[G_Prince]

I know someone who is unhappy and thinking of leaving, but who is now being labeled "church shopper" (sorry I didn't edit that dirty word) by "leaders" in an effort to guilt them into staying. They refuse to believe that anyone could have real problems with their church and instead blame "superficial" reasons such as problems with relationships...etc.

It doesn't matter that, for instance, GCx sometimes works like an RPG, blasting your spiritual life out of the air and crash landing it in the slough of despondency, they won't believe you. Instead they posit that anyone willing to leave the church does so for "worldly" reasons or perhaps has fallen away completely from the faith.  

I don't see how this is good for anyone. Why guilt dissatisfied parishioners into staying? How will grumpy butts in the pews benefit the Church? How will a Church who rubs a parishioner the wrong way benefit him or her. Why not just say, "You are always welcome, but if you need a different church we understand?" Maybe they are scared that if they stop playing hardball everyone will bolt for the exits.

[wastedyearsthere]

I think it would be hard for leaders to leave the church since their livelihood and reason for existence is bound up in the church.  Plus, since they aren't seminary trained -- where do they go?  What do they do?  I've known a very few who have left -- some haven't gone back to being a pastor and found other work and some have found a church where having seminary training is not required -- although I think in todays world this is harder and harder to find.  

I think the leaders are very deceived in thinking GCx is the best church doing God's Will and leaving the church would be spiritual suicide (yes, this was the term used when I was in the church and people left).  

In our town -- there are people leaving GCx and going to a church that is growing and has wonderful teaching and music and ministry.

[boboso]

I was close to one of the "leaders" who married into one of the prominent GCx families. I honestly think this guy knows he's trapped. Although I am disgusted at how much bad teaching he passes out daily, I pity him often as I believe he knows better inside.

If he leaves:

1. His salary would be cut-off. (Is ministry based on how much money one gets as a "professional" Christian? I'm all about supporting people who lay down their lives for others -- but show me don't tell me. It is an honor to give to believers who actually live this out.)

2. His wife would drop him like a bad habit and openly condemn his move to get out of GCx.

3. Without hesitation, she would take their kids with her. (She is much stronger mentally than him and would run him over)

4. He would have to find work in a bad economy with rusty skills.

5. The other "leaders" and GCx based relationships would leave him out to dry in a heartbeat.

Since he is connected so heavily, I believe he's forced to drink the kool-aid early and often. It's pathetic.

Anyway, I still love him and think of him often. I would like to think he'll wake up someday. Maybe after his kids are grown.

[Linda]

I think it would be hard for leaders to leave the church since their livelihood and reason for existence is bound up in the church.  Plus, since they aren't seminary trained -- where do they go?  What do they do?.

Bingo!

[wastedyearsthere]

Not only rusty skills but in my opinion bad skills (teaching).  They get their teaching and Biblical understanding from each other or from the book of the month (at least when we attended that was happening).  

I think it would be hard to wake up since for over 20 years some of these elders have been justifying their existence and having others encouraging them from the system.  I truly believe they think they are the ONLY church doing it right so others that leave are wrong and ruining their lives.  

I know a person who felt led by God to come back to our town and wait to be "raised up as an elder" (don't you love those cultic terms?)   I told them to go to seminary.  He did and is now a pastor of a church with solid Biblical teaching and knowledge.

I feel sorry for a man in my old church -- actually I know 2 men who for over 20 years have been "waiting" to be raised to Eldership.  It hasn't happened and I have no idea why since I see many raised to this level with less character and less understanding of the Word.  

My theory on people who stay is low self esteem (needing friends and acceptance) and lack of solid Biblical knowledge.  Of course, there are some who stay hoping to change things there.  I stayed too long hoping I could help to change leadership and Biblical knowledge -- I stayed too long.

I've known just a few elders who have left.  I think some are driven out or asked to resign.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I think some people stay because they are really smart and idealistic... so smart that they can't see the big picture... you know?

I know a many specifically who is BRILLIANT.  He is accomplished... lots of degrees behind his name, creative, great character, you name it... he's got it.  Sense of humor, wisdom, yada yada.

But he STAYS at GC.  I can't understand him other than I think he feels that it's better to be simple and idealistic (GC in his mind), than showy and shallow (other churches).

He seems unable to see the results of GC in the end.  The end result is a LACK of depth in our faith.  An A+B=C mentality.  I know this man struggles with his pride (at least he thinks he does... I don't really think he IS proud... simply aware of his remarkable abilities), and I think he feels the GC keeps him humble and gives him opportunity to practice humility and service.  Perhaps it does.

[MidnightRider]

I was close to one of the "leaders" who married into one of the prominent GCx families. I honestly think this guy knows he's trapped. Although I am disgusted at how much bad teaching he passes out daily, I pity him often as I believe he knows better inside.

boboso,

I am not clear on something. Did your friend actually tell you that he disagrees with the teaching, but cannot leave because of points 1-5? Or is this your opinion of his situation?

[EverAStudent]

Yes, I personally knew 2 elders who left.  Neither one left due to doctrinal differences with GC.  Both left because they had political difficulties as a result of being "commanded" by the national elders:  one was told to move from one city to another (which he did not want to do, so he saw his only option as leaving GC) and the other was abandoned by his "flock" when they decided to listen to a national GC directive (to participate in a national program) and the elder did not--the "flock" petitioned the national elders and they "sent" another set of replacement elders.  One of the elders got involved in politics and the other became an inner city missionary.  Both had been seminary trained, but were nonetheless terrible at biblical exegesis and hermeneutics.

I would also agree with numerous comments previously made:  GC leaders tend to level the accusations that someone looking for a more biblical church government model is "disloyal, faithless, not serious about the work of Christ, lazy, a church shopper" and other character asspersions.  Oddly, none of the accusations includes charging the person with being "discerning, concerned with biblical accuracy, and consumed with passion for the Word and sound doctrine."  What a pity, they just don't get it.

I should add, my wife and I stayed as long as we did because we had partially bought into the GC mentality that God is always displeased with us, so we must work harder to please Him, and no group works harder than GC, so...  As you all know, this is a self-defeating approach.  This undertone of their bad theology leads to both pride and despair.  What a pity, we just didn't get it.

[boboso]

12:00 AM Rider --

It was all opinions on my part -- however, from the conversations and observations I had with him (and his family), I believe there is some truth in them.

The "leader" I met with was adamant about the GCx system when confronted, however, showed signs of disagreement when not having to defend that garbage. I think he felt comfortable enough around me to let his guard down at times -- he'd never admit it openly though.

[exshep]

I knew of a  whole church who left. They are no longer part of the GCAC.   The church has aligned themselves heavily with Willow Creek and Saddleback.  I saw GCM literature, but increasingly less. One day they are no longer listed as  a GC  church.   I never really followed up on the details.  I had relocated out of state, ending my involvement.

[theresearchpersona]

I knew of a  whole church who left. They are no longer part of the GCAC.   The church has aligned themselves heavily with Willow Creek and Saddleback.  I saw GCM literature, but increasingly less. One day they are no longer listed as  a GC  church.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire...

[exshep]

I knew of a  whole church who left. They are no longer part of the GCAC.   The church has aligned themselves heavily with Willow Creek and Saddleback.  I saw GCM literature, but increasingly less. One day they are no longer listed as  a GC  church.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire...

No, I was  a member there for 2  years.  It was a very relaxed environment.   The senior pastor could not have been more approachable.  There was little reference to GC. It came up in  the new members class and that the last mention of it. It was a safe place to go.   My story with  GC and the anti-cult movement was common knowledge. All were most supportive.

Actually I love to share this incident just to show how uninvolved they were to the traditional shepherding milieu.  Pastor George [Feiser] was out sick. Associate Kyung Lee filled in to teach a class.  I asked him how it was to be the keynote speaker at the Short-Hopler lecture series. He did not get the punchline. He did not know who I was talking about.

[theresearchpersona]

I was talking about Willow Creek.

What I meant was that Willow Creek built itself on surveys, especially to unbelievers; and when it found-out that its mature members all seem to exodus (sound familiar), and when it [again] surveyed its congregation and found that the more mature and maturing members felt unfed and wanted deeper teaching of the word and that they were very unlikely to be the ones super-involved, and that those super-involved were often the ones just not maturing (sound familiar), they did another survey and finally concluded that they had to teach certain skills, and then told those people they could "feed themselves", that their years of work (which thousands upon thousands of Churches copied and followed closely) was in vain, wrong, and that they were taking a new direction...that they had to do another survey and that they'd be headed in the direction of mysticism (first thing inviting Brian McLaren the guy who says we know no gospel and attacks every fundamental and tenet of the Christian faith, and tells us it's a failure and must be "re-imagined", vs. Jesus "the gates of hell...").

Willow is a mass filled with unregenerates and few poisoned believers, with many of the very problems GC has (which probably inherited or re-enforced problems because of its incessant copying of Willow through its own associated, very influential-in-GC, churches), and there's good reason that, like GC, those who want feeding and to look to God's Word (rather than having their ears tickled) always seem to eventually leave (by the word of Willow itself). It would be encouraging if they had actually repented, rather than half-heartedly declaring so, and then saying they'd continue to do the same: they might as well have told the real believers "you can get the hell out, feed yourselves": it's the same "what WE'RE doing" mentality as GC, but with a more civil veneer...but it's still pretense and hostile at the core.

That's why I said "out of the frying pan...".

[AgathaL'Orange]

I can't say I'm a big Willow Creek advocate, but at least they aren't an insular entity.  They may ask for a lot of input and run the church in a strange, democratic way... but at LEAST they ask for input and TAKE it!!

GC does NOT ask for input.  If they are given input... that is divisive.  They are completely UNdemocratic in all ways... and in my opinion they KEEP people from becoming immature.

At least Willow Creek raises people to maturity... even if they eventually lead to find more "food!"  Anyway, I think GC is a fire and Willow Creek would be a frying pan!!


 :lol:

[theresearchpersona]

Maybe that reverse order is correct: but just as with GC, it seemed any maturity came from outside Willow, people reading things, rather than from inside teaching and work; and interestingly it's those inside Willow (or that were) who are often coming-out in opposition...kinda like GC; besides them, though, because of its massive influence, there are many who visit for times in order to get a feel and edumucation in what exactly it's about and is teaching, and unfortunately it hasn't ever been good, thus far that is.

But if they're currently the pan, I think they're turning-up the heat: because they just can't figure out why they can't turn goats into sheep, or why the vast majority of their congregations won't mature.

Lessons I think we've learned:
Lesson 1: you can "disciple" a goat for a life...it won't make him (or her) a sheep.
Lesson 2: if you don't feed them, or you poison them, the sheep very likely will leave: which can be good or bad depending where they go.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Weirdest thing:

When I was in the middle of my GC "adventure" I attended Willow Creek a few times in Chicago or wherever it is... some suburb.

Anyway, I LOVED parts of it... but the weirdest thing to me was this:

Willow Creek is in the middle of a beautiful campus they have a beautiful water view with HUGE windows on either side of the congregation.  When chuch/performance is about to start they have these power shades that close over the huge windows making the room as dark as a theater.

I HATED that!!!  The nature view (manipulated by builders that it was) was inspirational to me and leading me to prayer.  When they closed it, it completely shut that off and put the attention on the singer.  It just made me so sad.  I knew I would never be able to attend there because they took all the sensory beauty out of worship and made it feel like you had tickets to American Idol.

Sad.  And so much like other churches these days.  So many new churches have been built without stain glass or lovely windows that let the sunlight in.  There are no decorative elements of any kind.... not even just simple white walls and clean wood.  Some churches in the area have moved towards a utilitarian gymnasium for worship that can have chairs moved in for worship and out for a ball game.  You can worship God anywhere, but what ever happened to "the beauty of Your house?"

[EverAStudent]

Willow Creek is in the middle of a beautiful campus they have a beautiful water view with HUGE windows on either side of the congregation. When chuch/performance is about to start they have these power shades that close over the huge windows making the room as dark as a theater.

I HATED that!!! The nature view (manipulated by builders that it was) was inspirational to me and leading me to prayer. When they closed it, it completely shut that off and put the attention on the singer. It just made me so sad. I knew I would never be able to attend there because they took all the sensory beauty out of worship and made it feel like you had tickets to American Idol.

Sad. And so much like other churches these days. So many new churches have been built without stain glass or lovely windows that let the sunlight in. There are no decorative elements of any kind.... not even just simple white walls and clean wood. Some churches in the area have moved towards a utilitarian gymnasium for worship that can have chairs moved in for worship and out for a ball game. You can worship God anywhere, but what ever happened to "the beauty of Your house?"

Just last year we attended a Willow sapling church in our area.  Same concept, power blinds to shut out the creation.  Frankly, that was not so bad.  But the band was amplified to the point where our chest cavities were literally vibrating to the drums and electric guitars.  I am sure some people in the congregation were singing along with the band and its lead singer, but you could not prove it by listening because only the band could be heard and it drowned out all else.  My wife rebuked for me calling it a concert performance instead of worship, yet, I wonder whatever happened to at least the music aspect being "participatory."

[MidnightRider]

[...]Willow Creek is in the middle of a beautiful campus they have a beautiful water view with HUGE windows on either side of the congregation.  When chuch/performance is about to start they have these power shades that close over the huge windows making the room as dark as a theater.

I HATED that!!!  The nature view (manipulated by builders that it was) was inspirational to me and leading me to prayer.  
[...]
Sad.  And so much like other churches these days.  So many new churches have been built without stain glass or lovely windows that let the sunlight in. [...]  

AgLO,

So now you are Orthodox? I have only been to a few EO churches, but there was not a single window among them.   :?  Not much light, either. I don't think any of them had electric lights on during liturgy - just candles.

Is that standard or just a quirk of the few churches I visited?

[exshep]

That's why I said "out of the frying pan...".

Oopsie!!   Point very well taken.    Very well thought out.  I  need to read a little more before responding.  I will sign my mea culpa card and be more careful.