GC to be or not to be, is that the question?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Reasonable]

New here, stumbled across this forum.  Please forgive the appearance of bluntness only meant for brevity.

It seems to me that there are probably three types of participant here: Active participants with GC, former ones that have moved on, and ones in limbo.

We are asked by God to 'make the most of the time'.

With that in mind, it seems to me that those who are still active in a GC church and in the conversation with GC should not air griefs here, but instead air them graciously according to their conscience within their own churches.  If, like others, you are ignored, shunned, or marginalized, and if you don't feel called to endure in love, then you are under no requirement to stay no matter what any mere man or woman may judge.

If you have left the GC fold and already plugged into another fellowship, then with God's blessing, be fully there and not engaged here.  There is no profit to you or the Kingdom to do otherwise.

The only place (granted, IMO) that I feel a resource like this may serve God honorably is for those who would consider themselves loyal to what GC claims to be, yet finding yourselves on the wrong side of its favor due to human weakness, whether your own, other ones within GC, or a combination of both.  To that end, I think this can be a limited source of help, while not really able to be accountable as it is (let's face it) an anonymous forum on the internet.

I am in the limbo camp.  But I recognize something: GC is not the one anointed expression of faith in Jesus Christ, OK?  It is a collection of individual human beings just like you and me who willingly choose to associate together and worship God imperfectly, as all other expressions of Christian faith do.  Despite our imperfections, God is more faithful than we are and works with everyone who call upon His name.  GC is just a corporate organization, but people sometimes make the mistake of being critical of an inanimate thing as if it has its own soul.  GC(x) is a legal entity on paper and nothing more.  Our experiences within that umbrella are individual experiences with other individuals, all of whom are sinners, and some even redeemed!  (Even most.)

I know this: most folks at GC churches, including leaders, do not get up in the morning dreaming of the next way they can hurt someone.  To believe otherwise is preposterous.  They, as we all, can commit errors, make mistakes, believe the wrong things in the moment, and behave sinfully, but I know that most GC folks are honestly pursuing a path with the best of intentions.  If you can find a recording or recorded statement otherwise, then that would be something to chew, but I have never heard or seen it.

So the question for us in limbo is this: is the collective intent of GC folks, historical and current, at its best, something worth pursuing and being a part of?  I still believe it is, even though I experienced much the same behaviors as many of you, that have set me aside for now.  You know what?  I REJOICE that God has found me able to endure this for Him as I have learned a tremendous amount about myself, human nature, and Him in the process.  I consider it a blessing and not a curse that I can, I believe and hope, discern between the right and the wrong, live according to my conscience, and accept both the accolades and the beatings as all blessings from Him who upholds me.

Has it been painful?  Yes.  Did I find comfort, answers or support instantly or easily?  Not at all.  Am I as tempted as any of you to want to vent, complain, criticize or take joy in the failures of someone I disagreed with?  I would be lying against scripture if I failed to admit it.  But we must take every thought captive and make them obedient to Christ.

You, I, and every believer inside and outside of GC and other orthodox Christian organizations are THE Church.  We can be no more separated from this fact, if we are true believers, than we can be separated from the love of God.  We are all priests in the line of Melchizidek.  If we submit to an earthly spiritually authority, we do it willingly and should not do it under coercion, and if we withhold our submission, God will ultimately judge the conscience of each one and our deeds as we pursued Him in this life.

As I indicated, I consider myself true to most of what GC folks want to be, and I am not able by their own choice to be in fellowship at this time.  I was never excommunicated or put on church discipline.  No overt sin was accused of me.  My mistake?  Being willing to ask honest questions, without criticism (except that which might have been self-interpreted by the hearer of the question) of national leaders.  I was "quietly" set aside, passively-aggressively, and I allowed that to happen as I was not going to march into a meeting and call leaders publicly to account as it would be a spectacle without grace.  I watch and wait upon The Lord for His will to be revealed for GC and myself.  He may wish to move me on, or He may wish one day to reconcile me, and I am open to either possibility.

Sorry for the length.  Wanted to be understood before entering the discussion.  My questions come below.

I agree that GC has a leadership problem.  The leaders can widely be characterized as fine men and I would live and work alongside them far sooner than most others as one may find in our rapidly decaying America that is almost no longer America.  Days are coming sooner than we want to think about when these differences we have with GC will seem so trifling compared with the coming storm against lovers of Christ in the Western world.  We need to be focused now on shoring up our faith and being prepared to defend and still advance it in the face of those who will wish to silence, marginalize, and even kill us no matter what church we identify with.  I want to have the Church at my back in those days, not be ostracized from it, know what I mean?

So can GC be positioned to be on the front lines in this coming storm?  The leadership problem, no one should be surprised, is a very old one and not invented at GC, but inherited from centuries of practice in church leadership in all kinds of Christian churches.  It is not the motives of these men that we should seek to understand -- we should assume the best motives.  It is really a question of their influences.  Yes, the circumstances of the last couple of decades of Jim McCotter's life reveals some interesting traits that his early followers, many of whom are principle leaders today, were unwittingly influenced by.  Some of these 1st-gen leaders were not so much new converts as they were fugitives themselves of the church examples they were brought up in (Catholic and others), such rebellions, well-founded or not, that helped shape their thinking and attitudes.  Do we have experiences in our early lives that have shaped how we think - some that could mislead us?  Do we want grace from others for ourselves?  Should we not also extend it, even to these men?

God's grace is sufficient, but will we cooperate with it?  Is ours sufficient to forgive?  Forgiveness does not mean give ourselves over to things that violate our conscience.  We may forgive and yet remain true to our faith in what we discern to be right in a given situation.

Some men, and some very influential and in control of the agenda at GC, are struggling, whether they know it or not, with the length of their own authority and influence.  But consider this: if you have given 20, 30 and 40 years of your life to something, how easy is it for you to hear that you just might have gotten off a bit on something, off enough that you caused pain to many people you loved?  How easy would that be for you?  Would you not seek every way of escape for your motives and actions and try to justify your good intentions until, with no other examination possible, you had no place left but to flee to God and be convicted of your error?  How long do you think that takes?

I believe a Great Winnowing is underway by God in his Church by all names, and it has only just begun.  We are surrounded by faux believers and this world, and particularly the Gay agenda (but not only this) represents a monstrous force that reveals who truly clings to Christ and who merely uses him for legitimacy as they pursue their own flesh.  Most churches, even the most emergent ones, are still mostly asleep and lulled by the golden age of American life when it comes to the real spiritual battle that rages today.  The affairs of churches remain with buildings and budgets, members and membership, preaching from the pulpits and organized education, and the general continuity of institutional organizations, with hopefully some extra salvations along the way.  This observation is NOT meant to be critical or scandalous, but simply and inevitably human.  Most people are not cut from soldiers' cloth and need predictability, stability, and organization.  Their constitutions are not strong enough (on their own) to remain calm and make the next decision with constantly changing information on a battlefield.  That is what leaders are for, and they are few.

Unfortunately, many leaders in churches today are not Generals, not spiritually capable battlefield commanders, but Sergeants who attained a certain level of capability and then stopped growing because they were promoted to command brigades too soon.

There is an area of thought on this that is still almost unheard of but that I think is begging for examination.  The problem is that the problem itself is OLD.  For generations, we have made too much of youth and the young.  We have trained and promoted young men (and in some traditions, women) to lead groups of others including ones much older than they are.  This is a root of a problem with many branches and I think a lot of what ails GC is on this tree.

Principle GC leaders from the Blitz era were VERY young when they caught fire for Christ.  Praise God for their zeal!  Yet, being a self-appointed new church with no significantly older, wiser leaders, they were left to largely lead themselves.  (Disclaimer: I understand issues of leadership by the Holy Spirit and God and know those scriptures.  For sake of explanation, I am not trying to give a sermon on those scriptures, but operate within the trait given humans that the first lines of Genesis refer to as "His image" -- free will / self-determination -- which even God does not tamper with and leaves to us to work out in faith.)  As these young leaders proceeded, they became UNWITTINGLY overbearing in the use of their authority that has carried forward to this day, and they are LARGELY DISCONNECTED FROM UNDERSTANDING IT.  I plead, we must understand that they do not know what they do at times.  They have the best of intentions.  They believe that they act Biblically, but lack somewhat in proper interpretation.  God allows them to proceed in His grace.  They still do far more good than harm, though that is where WE who have been hurt are weak and have difficulty seeing ourselves.  They have sacrificed all their prime years for their church and they should be prayed for, not condemned.  When you have been "in charge" since you were in your twenties, and you are in your fifties or sixties, you will not easily submit to a younger person asking a question that may hold conviction for you if you are to give an honest answer.  You will be affronted.  If any of you holds authority in a job, how easily do you take to a new hire telling you that you may be doing something in a better way than you are?  Yet, that new hire may just have a fresh perspective that you lack!

2nd generation GC leaders are somewhat dynastic.  Have you ever noticed that?  Lots of sons and sons-in-law of existing elders have joined the elder ranks and, again, I think this is in no way a "knowing" let alone nefarious plan.  It is natural.  As the world is old, inheritances have transferred to children, businesses to heirs, and kingdoms to progeny.  It is quite human and natural to find common cause with your own blood and you are more likely to trust a family member than a friend with the reigns of your affairs.  But this dynastic tendency has helped to continue to pass down a style of leadership that is rooted in a failure of wisdom that is short-circuited when young ones obtain spiritual authority, the most weighty kind of authority there is!  Yet, even the worldly recognize that you do not too quickly want to promote a businessperson to CEO, a citizen to the city council, or a young man or woman into parenthood.  I believe Timothy and other NT books warn MIGHTILY of having the spiritual weight of authority too soon, and while we seem to teach and discuss them, we have missed the one element that is chief of all prerequisites for leadership -- TIME IN THE SADDLE.  What I am talking about is first DECADES (not a few years) of leadership as a parent, and simultaneously decades of leadership of your peers in secular work, culminating in the ability (hopefully) to be a self-funded elder, later in life, when it has beat you up enough and you have by God come through it with both manna and wisdom treasure built up from many lessons learned BEFORE you are looked to for spiritual leadership.  We have, as a race, been completely misunderstanding this for many, many generations back to even the early church.

And Americans particularly love to worship their young.  We love their energy, their enthusiasm, their "availability" to do the work we want them to do especially when they as yet do not have much under their management to distract them, and if we can find a young man or woman who seems to have a heart strongly for God, we want to quickly put them on the stage in front of others and point to them as examples.  We beg of them to make more like themselves.  We pile up unbelievable pressure upon them to perform and live up to all our expectations and not to stumble once.  And, if we have put them on a pedestal too high and they fall, we protect the knowledge of that fall as closely as possible in trying to restore them so as to limit the damage to the reputation of our organization to outsiders.  Ring any bells?

Now how do you see the current leadership of GC?  They are truly remarkable people, those left standing, who were entrusted with so much sooner than they could possibly be prepared for and, indeed, what a testimony of God's grace.  Should they be torn down?  Should they be swept away?  Or, do we need to patiently pray for them that, if God so chooses, he would help them to understand what was NOT ideal in how their leadership came to be or how they promulgated it and, rather than continue in it as a form of tradition, seek to mature in how future leaders are cultivated.  This movement has grown up.  It has older men and women, now, who have not been looked to for wisdom, who have not been relied upon for principle planning, who are not the ones that get emotionally-viscerally excited about new mission fields and church plants, but who have taken blows in life, rock-steady, quiet, prayerful and peaceful doers.  Even more marginalized than the few of us who were vocal and shuned are these who have been quietly faithful, not even aspiring to leadership themselves.  If any still exist (because GC has quietly lost many of these who approached it in their middle years, quickly recognized the failures of leadership, and disappeared with the notice of few), these are perhaps who wise GC leaders might today look for and seek to transform near-future leadership from the passionate youth to the few who have proven fast to their faith after decades of attempts by the world to cause them to fall away.

So what say any of you.  Does this resonate or am I truly deserving of my disenfranchised state of belonging nowhere?  How do we help GC grow in its value of leadership, rather than just persist in a state of having been "hurt" by it?

[arthur]

"With that in mind, it seems to me that those who are still active in a GC church and in the conversation with GC should not air griefs here, but instead air them graciously according to their conscience within their own churches. "

Wonder if Martin Luther Ever Got the memo?

I have to disagree with you. I managed to separate myself from GCx only after finding this forum, and reading the accounts of people who had feelings and experiences that were not only similar to my own, but in other cases, pointed to a future for myself, and my family, that I did not want. This future is not made readily apparent when you join a GCx church, and instead, pressure is brought to bear to bring you into conformance ever so slowly, and none to delicately. You feel vaguely guilty about the issue until you finally submit, and do as you've been asked to do, whether the matter is time, or money, or resources.

the forums here helped me past all of that, and on the road to recovery. It saved me from completely walking away form the christian faith, and it saved my kids from a lifetime of servitude to a church that had no qualms about utilizing dubious doctrines, and questionable evangelism tactics.

I walked away from it, and recover, step by step, and the forums are important to the recovery process.

You write like a person firmly indoctrinated in GCx "unity" theology.  That "unity" theology is woven deep into the culture of the organization, and I dont think it can be changed. I can warn people though.

[Linda]

Thank you, Arthur, for taking the time to formulate this excellent response.

[Reasonable]

Thank you, Arthur.  I understand what you are saying.

In terms of unity, there is so much God’s Word has to say about being unified (http://www.openbible.info/topics/unity) that I struggle to think of it in terms of a theology or a doctrine.  I suppose in some clinical sense it is, as all things seem to inescapably need a label simply to be able to refer to them, but it’s not like unity is untreated by the Bible or unorthodox within the larger Christian world.  The link I included herein limits me to one conclusion: God wants us to pursue it.  Thankfully, and here is our ‘out’, we are not individually accountable for how others pursued unity, only responsible insomuch as we sought it ourselves.  Unity does not demand that if the pastor says “take this cocktail” that I swallow it down.  Obedience to the rest of God’s commands are not subservient to unity first.

My beliefs about unity are independent of any expression of worship or corporate organization.  They are my own, and subject to the Word of God as is everything else I believe (and so it should be.)

My concern for what you said (and only because of the way it is phrased, so I am only responding to how you stated it) is that you at one time appear to have granted to GC the power to determine whether you hold to Christ at all, where you said “It [this ‘GC recovery’ blog site] saved me from completely walking away form the christian faith”.  If you have understood God, sin, grace, and Jesus Christ, then your faith is your own, deeper than any church or group of worshippers, and unable to be taken from you by anything that people can do to or for you.  If you are not as sure of your faith as that, then I would appeal to you to find any trueborn(again) Christian you can, anywhere that you are comfortable with, or even your Bible, your prayer and a quiet place, and settle that first.  Nothing else, including GC and the debate surrounding it, matters otherwise.  Salvation has been brought to millions before and since GC’s existence without the help of GC.

But if that was only how things once were, that you know you can never be robbed of God’s Spirit, and you and your family have found a church within which God feeds your soul, who am I or anyone to pass judgment?  I say go and be blessed, release GC and this site from your heart and be free – God is loves you independent of it.

I am more interested in connecting with those who are stuck in GC’s shadows but otherwise feeling called to remain in reserve, available to be called up, if God chooses, to serve again within GC.  It is rooted in this thought: is Jesus smilingly pleased that the pain reported on this site exists, or is it evidence that something has gone wrong?  Clearly, something has gone wrong and unresolved pain not His best for us, just like divorce was never God’s will and yet he permitted it to the Jews because ‘their hearts were hard’.  I would like to see if this site can serve as a transition or staging area to bring about reform at GC and stop the outflow of hurting people.  If we can’t agree on wanting GC leaders to repent and be healed, then this site offers little hope beyond confirmation that we are not alone.  Once that has been discovered by someone, what is there left to say unless it is in the pursuit of reconciliation?  God does not wish us to remain injured, that isn’t His MO.

[DevastatedTC]

I appreciate what you are trying to say, Reasonable, as I wrestled with the same things when I left. I really considered staying and trying to bring the abuses which I saw to light and to the leadership and to others - not for the sake of destroying a church but for the purpose of trying to help them repent, believing the best that they would turn back and correct doctrine.

The interesting thing I found is that GCx has been made aware of the practices for a long time, by many others and that they have disregarded and hidden the cries of others. It was interesting for me to find out after I left of the Statement of Weakness paper put forward years ago, where GCx had initially recognized their error. To my surprise, the same exact things which they claimed to have repented of as a movement were still being practiced.

I spoke with several former leaders of the church I was at who had left and to a person they all said that they tried to help leadership (the ones given charge of protecting God's flock) see the misguided practices and weights and burdens they were putting on others. My point is that they have had ample opportunity to change.

My being on the forum is to voice true experiences that are not my own interpretation of the events so that people who have been hurt by the exact same abuses know that it is not due to an ignorance of leadership. I tried to stay "united" with the people as far as I could. However, as a Christian, my first obligation is to be united to the Word of God. The abuses brought forward in GCx ultimately boil down to a misapplication of the scriptures. Scripture divides, for important reasons. If scripture tells shephards to lead the flock and gives specific instructions of what a good shephard does, and then a person in the role begins to put heavy burdens on people, what does scripture have to say on that?

Counseling and education of how a healthy church is supposed to function was really helpful for me. Another resource which I would suggest people to listen to is www.batteredsheep.com and www.barnabasministry.com .

[EverAStudent]

I must agree with the numerous comments that state (and document) that GC leadership has known for four decades that their leadership practices and doctrines are unbiblical and very often quite abusive.  GC's continued exercise of these aberrant ways is NOT from a lack of having been confronted with the truth by uncounted brethren, but rather from a willful decision to carry on with their traditions which began with the McCotter blitz in spite of all the confrontation.

In other words, this forum serves as the living ongoing third step of church discipline for the denominational leadership of GC.  In church discipline situations most often the step of Matthew 18 that is bypassed is the third step: bring the offense of the sinner to the attention of the entire congregation and ask everyone in the congregation to approach the entrenched sinner and petition the sinner to finally repent. If he repents he is to be kept in good standing and cannot be dismissed. If he refuses to repent after a reasonable time, even with every person in the church having had the opportunity to confront him, only then may step four be implemented: forced removal (either the unrepentant sinner must go or, as in the case of GC, the sinners can stay and everyone else must be willing to move on). 

This forum stands as the active and continuing process of implementing (and perhaps most importantly documenting) step three of church discipline for the entire GC denomination.  The leadership throughout the denomination has generally not repented but also remains in charge, so the forum, step three, goes on as a call of love and warning to both the leadership and to any uninformed congregants.

-----
Article on step three: http://www.thefaithfulword.org/2011julyblogarchives.html#27

[arthur]

When you are hurting and insecure and lonely, you doubt your faith. In this kind of time, if an authoritative sounding person comes along and says " If you are not as sure of your faith as that, then I would appeal to you to find any trueborn(again) Christian you can, anywhere that you are comfortable with, or even your Bible, your prayer and a quiet place, and settle that first. " you tend to have that doubt reinforced. This is a good example of what I meant when I referred to questionable evangelism tactics. Without knowing anything about me, under the the stated goal of wanting to help, you attempted to get me to doubt my salvation.

My faith may waver, but my salvation does not depend on my faith being perfect. It depends on whether or not Christ paid the perfect price. My salvation is secure. People will persuade me to act if it isn't, but when they succeed the only effect is to limit the good that God can accomplish through me in this world. They lack the power to do any more than that.

I am His, and anyone who even suggests otherwise is a liar.

One other point:


A wise teacher at Moody Bible institute once pointed out that the biblical model for forgiveness is to extend forgiveness when it a person asks for it. Until forgiveness is asked for, the best we can do is to offer mercy.

I believe that GCx's failure to seek people and personally ask forgiveness for the hurt that was done is one reason this forum continues to exist.

Your stated goal is "I am more interested in connecting with those who are stuck in GC’s shadows but otherwise feeling called to remain in reserve, available to be called up, if God chooses, to serve again within GC. " If you are GCx leadership, then I challenge you: begin apologizing and asking forgiveness of people you have hurt. If you are not GCx leadership, and you would help, then challenge your own leadership.

If this board is what I think it is, then these stories of repentance and forgiveness will show up first here.

To my fellow members, I would ask this: has a GCx leader ever confessed their sins, asked for forgiveness for hurting you? If they did, would you be willing to forgive them?  For my part, I would forgive, but I doubt I could ever trust GCx as an organization again.

[DevastatedTC]

Arthur - I received a letter once from a leader on his way out. It was very sincere and helped me to see that even though the door to leave GCx seemed closed, it would in fact open if pushed. However, I do not trust the movement nor do I recommend any of the churches.

[Reasonable]

EverAStudent, it is true that GC leaders have known for decades that there are people who disagree with them.  But it is not true to say that GC leadership knows they are unbiblical and abusive, unless you are a witness to leaders telling you that they intend to believe some things contrary to the Bible or intend to abuse.  Why is that an important point?  Because it shows how important individual perspective is.  You could tell someone that you think they should not walk alone at night, and if they disagree with you and feel safe to continue to walk alone at night, then are you the final arbiter who can declare that this person “knows” that they are being unsafe?  Do you allow any room for a different perspective?

Arthur does a good job of demonstrating what perspective has the power to do.  He made a leap to conclude that my intent was to “get him to doubt” his salvation.  Now, what if my goal was (and it was) to encourage him to be sure of his faith and give no human organization the power to make him doubt it?  What I intended as encouragement, he interpreted as discouragement.  It’s an amazing thing, and it highlights why the internet cannot serve the 3rd step of Matthew 18 – there is not enough relationship between anonymous persons to easily or clearly understand one another.  It is too much a stretch to reason that Paul meant the 3rd step to mean the Church in a global sense, since there would have been no way to practically achieve that in his day or ours.  The third step *must* have meant the local church where people knew one another face-to-face.

And Devastated, did GCx ever make you feel unfairly judged?  It has made me feel that way and, I would assume, most others here.  Yet, is it then fair to say that all GC leaders and members in places I have never been and in churches I have never visited share in the guilt of the persons who offended me?  If your neighbor commits a crime next door to you, are you partly to blame by association as a member of that neighborhood?  Have you visited every church and met every leader in order to make such a broad, sweeping generalization?  It is OK to say that you don’t wish to give any of the churches a chance with you, but it is not OK to broadcast that no one else should, either, based only on your experience with a tiny percentage of it.

Friends, if you review what I wrote, I came here with no justification of the sins of GC leadership, only the perspective that any of us who is perfect should cast the first stone.  I don’t meet that requirement.  That does NOT mean we sweep problems under the rug.  What it does mean is that we are powerless to influence or effect change if we cannot hold onto our humility and recognition that there isn’t anything a GC leader has done that we have not also likely done, unintentionally and unknowingly at first, with someone else in our life with whom we held influence.  If this is just a place of holding onto bitterness, then there is no fruit here.  If we care about GC and remember that they are no more than people just like us, and if we love the church as Christ loved it, then we have broken and contrite hearts and would not waste one second here except in the pursuit of the best for GC.  But if we are afraid to lay our hurts aside because we find a twisted solace and comfort in holding onto them, then let God judge that course, but I cannot pursue it in good conscience.

Looking for anyone here with humility who wants any part of praying and working for the best for the people at GC.  If not, then thank you for listening.

[Linda]

To that end, I think this can be a limited source of help, while not really able to be accountable as it is (let's face it) an anonymous forum on the internet.

First of all, I am not anonymous. I have the letters from Brent Knox and Mark Darling (I wish them both the best and have no personal conflict with either man) sent to us 2 years ago (7 years after we left Evergreen) to prove it. They know who I am. Hopler reads the forum and is trying to achieve "reconciliation/unity/silence/whatever" by contacting anyone here who posts by name. They are trying to "pursue unity", however they don't seem interested in correcting false teaching. My issue is with false teaching.

Our last meeting was with Mark Darling. It was over a teaching he gave at an HSLT in Colorado. We paid a few hundred dollars to have our daughter listen to him teach that she should commit to her local GC church for the rest of her life. We had no idea this was being taught. She was in high school. High school kids answer to their parents. Their parents decide where they will go to church.

We expressed our concerns to Mark Darling. (Among other things he had also started teaching that leaving your local church was the equivalent of divorcing your spouse.) He listened to our concerns and then he said that it would be best if we left rather than stay and try to "change things". So, we left.

Rick Whitney also taught commitment to GC for life at Faithwalkers. The talk has since been removed. It has never been corrected.

We had attended a Great Commission Church for nearly 10 years. We had no idea of the history and teaching. I have documented our story several times on this forum. I am here to warn other parents about the dangerous teaching and practice of this group.

I cannot emphasize this enough. THEY DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE.

Darling sits on the national board. They know exactly what they are teaching. Nothing has changed from the time of McCotter and they still are doing the things they apologized for. So, it's not really an apology, then, is it?

It's time to warn. That's why I post, by name, on GCM warning.

Just to emphasize, we were not hurt by Great Commission, we believe their teachings on commitment to the group for life and having the pastor be God's spokesperson are unbiblical.

[EverAStudent]

EverAStudent, it is true that GC leaders have known for decades that there are people who disagree with them.  But it is not true to say that GC leadership knows they are unbiblical and abusive, unless you are a witness to leaders telling you that they intend to believe some things contrary to the Bible or intend to abuse.  Why is that an important point?  Because it shows how important individual perspective is.  You could tell someone that you think they should not walk alone at night, and if they disagree with you and feel safe to continue to walk alone at night, then are you the final arbiter who can declare that this person “knows” that they are being unsafe?  Do you allow any room for a different perspective?

What an important point indeed!!!

IF GC leadership's doctrinal errors and abuses were *my* opinion, then, you would be making an interesting point.  It is also true that my opinion is NO standard by which to judge whether GC leadership is doctrinally unsound or not.  

BUT, when the Bible is the standard, then opinion is irrelevant, and that includes the opinions of GC leadership.  What is relevant is whether GC leadership's doctrines and practices are biblical and God-honoring.

This forum is filled with documentation that GC leadership has taught and continues to teach contrary to the Bible on uncountable instances (examples of GC leader's repeated biblical errors: every man can become an apostle, every man must become an elder, the third step of Matthew 18 discipline is optional, the congregants may not disagree with the whims of elders on any matter or the elder can excommunicate them, the flock is the wife and the pastor is the husband and they are married in God's eyes, leaving a GC church is the sin of adultery, a GC member is bound to their local church for life, and very many more).  Such men as Dennis Clark wrote and published such heresies in books, yet they remain as GC pastors and "national oversight" with no known public renunciation, retraction, or repentance from having committed such a tragic trespass.

Now, we know that all these doctrinal trespasses have been brought to the attention of the GC leadership for we ourselves have brought them to their attention, yet such trespasses continue and so many GC elders are unrepentant.  Therefore we KNOW that the GC leadership are aware they have been teaching and practicing unsound doctrine, for they have been personally confronted and confronted via this forum.

The only wiggle room left is for a GC leader to declare, "In my opinion the Bible does teach that for a sheep to leave the membership of a GC church is the sin of divorce and adultery."  Yet, that is not a defense, for his very own "opinion" condemns the GC leader as being a teacher of unsound and unbiblical doctrine.  It demonstrates he is unlearned in the study of Scripture and is unfit to be a teacher per 1 Timothy 3:2.  

So, it is true, the GC leaders KNOW they are teaching against the Bible for they have been repeatedly confronted for their trespasses.  Those who continue to teach such things have rejected the Bible and have embraced error on these matters.  Regardless of how it is that they may protest regarding their opinions, or however they argue they can "prove" their errors are actually somehow in the Bible, that just once again illustrates their blindness with regard to their sins from which they refuse to repent.  

And yes, teaching unsound doctrine after one has been corrected, confronted, and exposed to the truth is a terrible sin which disqualifies that man from the pastorate...at least, according to Paul's "opinion."

[Reasonable]

EverAStudent, believe me, I get it.  You make some powerful observations and the only reason I have dipped my toe in here is because all is not well in OZ, so-to-speak.  Please trust that I know this.

But I’m also not a new believer.  I have read and re-read every word of the Word enough to learn that there is depth to understanding it that I still have not attained, even though all of it is understandable!

Let’s try, if we could, to consider the theory I put forward about *why* the things that are happening have happened.  Could you see these kinds of errancy being mistakes of stunted growth, rooted in having too much influence over too many too soon?

You know, there are a lot of straight-up cults out there who teach things so unorthodox that no reasonable person need even argue over their error – but GCM is not some small enclave of people hiding behind walls.  The hiding that some individual leaders do is no more than any human does who is afraid to face a weakness.  They are still pretty accessible.  You really could lump most of the criticisms of GC leaders’ statements into this: *overstatement*.  They simply take some things too far.

Take the dating debate for example.  I was close enough to discern what is going on with older leaders.  First, most of them sinned sexually as young men.  Their hearts are broken about it.  Sexual sin isn’t one of those kinds of mistakes, like touching a hot stove, that sometimes people just need to experience to learn.  Sexual sin is so destructive that it takes years to compensate for the damage.  GC leaders’ hearts are broken about themselves and they (too-)desperately want to prevent this pain in their flocks in about the worst time that we have seen for sexual sin in America.  So step 1, they tried to come up with behavioral guidelines that, coming from them, sound like hard/fast rules to try to prevent the very conditions out of which such sins can grow.  They don’t trust themselves, and thus, they trust no one else to make good decisions when the possibility of making a bad one exists.  Better to just prevent a bad decision from being possible!

But step 2 doesn’t come at their hands – it comes at the hands of their henchmen – young leaders who in their youthful zeal take it up another notch and overstress these “rules” and become little police-lings.  From my own experiences, I have watched a LOT of snowballs at the top of the hill turn into avalanches at the bottom as the real pain is not caused by the leaders at the top, but by our running mates alongside us who got a little to zealous trying to apply the teaching and, in humility, I may well have been guilty of this a time-or-two.  Yet, not nearly so much as the examples I saw of men years younger than I was.  I’m quite glad I didn’t come along in my college years as I probably would have clocked a couple of these college group leaders for some of their antics.  No, I have great grace and mercy for them now because they were unwittingly (I use that word a lot for a good reason) *set up* to fail because they simply should not have been shepherds or disciplers of anyone for many years to come.

Rather than take these squabbles and gripe about them, I tend to look for root causes.  What led to the conditions within which these things occur, and I believe it was the grace of God to hit me with it – it’s promoting and making too much of the young – giving them too much authority.  Duh!  I should have guessed that when I brought this mental revelation to the leaders that they would struggle against it cuz, guess what, *they* started leading at tender ages and it is painful for them to examine this.  It’s quite a stuck position they are in, mentally.

Then, of course, it all ties back to the unity/being-on-the-same-page/not critical thing where no one is really given grace to speak up unless they are “besties” with the head-man (I like to play with Millennial colloquialisms sometimes).

Here’s what I think scares the living daylights out of the longest-lived GC leaders: their legitimacy.  They aren’t shallow men.  It isn’t about holding a mere position of authority or getting enough atta-boys or being acceptable.  I think they know what their first days in the movement were like, when their zeal had them so wound-up that life could not be better even if they had little money or uncomfortable places to sleep.  Zeal is a possessive mate.  Remember what Joshua & Caleb did?  I suspect that in quiet moments by themselves, they wonder if they who were brought up in other churches were guilty of failing their pre-college leaders and quit them in judgment, culminating in starting their new church movement.  I wonder if they are at least a little bit afraid that raising each other to elder wasn’t really a valid anointing which could unwind all the others that they have since laid hands on.  What do people who feel privately guilty of something often tend to do?  Hide it?  Or over-emphasize something else in an attempt to counter-balance it (like over-emphasizing their authority and the unity of leadership)?  It isn’t a proof, just a red flag.

The fact is, all of these men who were not previously atheists all came from somewhere – quite a few Catholic, some Baptist, and other traditions they themselves left.  Do they hold unsettled judgment for themselves in the dark corners of their hearts?

But if I were to talk with them about it, I would not seek to bring it into the light for their undoing, but so they could release this burden.  I don’t hold to the Catholic interpretation of Apostolic succession, meaning that I don’t need for McCotter or any other early elder to be an Apostle in order to be willing to submit to their teaching or leadership.  I think the oldest leaders feel illegitimate and are shutting the ears of their hearts against it, which is producing bad effects for the rest of us.  Now, imagine, if any of this falls near the mark, if they could release this burden and just chillax!  Could it do a lot to take away some strain of some of these issues they are so wound up about that they overreach on them?

This is getting too long again and no wonder, it is an incredibly complex issue.  I am exploring it because there are no one-liners that will reach these men nor salve us who got stuck in the maelstrom.  But if we seek understanding before God with humility, I think he can reveal deeper understandings of the events of our lives & times.  Understanding has always helped me to be merciful, where being confused or unable to see why someone would mistreat me makes responding in mercy very difficult.  I really want to understand what is going on with these men if I ever want to be a part of ministering to their own burdens and helping them to be released.  Since they aren’t trusting of or forthcoming to their flocks about their weaknesses, it is taking us longer to figure stuff out.

I honestly don’t know that any of them read anything here – not that I distrust you Linda.  Perhaps they poke about once-in-a-while but I don’t get the sense that they look at this like the President looks at the polls to figure out what to do next.

Final thought (this time): I read an article someplace about church stagnation happening in authoritative churches, and new church growth being experienced in churches where leaders are very much broken/open about their sins to their flocks – and not just distant old ones in the past.  I’ve heard a lot of “brokenness” from GC pastors from the front – brokenness about stuff they did wrong many years ago.  Not so much things that happened yesterday, though.  But I will say that it isn’t fair to state that they never seek forgiveness.  I HAVE had GC elders ask me to forgive them for sin they committed against me.  They aren’t monsters.  In fact, to this larger topic on this thread, I had a very young pastor once chew me out on the phone for bringing a concern to him about another pastor in another GC church who was simultaneously a manager in a workplace of some of our own flock.  The pastor was engaging in some patently bad, unfair management practices and it needed to be dealt with.  The initial reaction was anger that I would question the other pastor – “because he is an elder!”  You know – don’t listen to a bad report, yada yada.  I didn’t lose my peace.  I didn’t respond in anger or yell.  I kept my cool and graciously ended the call.  He called back to apologize.  Yes, the wrong attitude is there and I wasn’t positioned to be the one to help this young pastor with this united-front attitude, but he at least recognized that he overblew it and, you know what, we got the management problem for our flock eventually resolved.

[EverAStudent]

Friends, if you review what I wrote, I came here with no justification of the sins of GC leadership, only the perspective that any of us who is perfect should cast the first stone.

Of course, the objection that a person must be perfectly without sin in order to confront a GC elder is an improper interpretation of that passage, not to mention that the passage itself is likely not even a genuine part of John's original manuscript.  

The John 8:7 saying does not forbid judging the actions and theology of someone else.  It does mean that if you are able to not commit a sin through the very act of condemning another person for their ungodly and unlawful actions then you may proceed.  

In this case the scribes and Pharisees could not legally execute the woman because there had been no proper trial (eyewitness accuser testimony presented, husband testimony presented, accused gives public defense, elders of the city render verdict, and only then eyewitnesses, family, and local community are pressed into service for the execution--it is all in the Law of Moses).  

Moreover, since the scribes and Pharisees were under the authority of Herod, and Herod under Rome, and Herod had decreed that no Jew may execute another Jew until Rome had rendered an opinion, then had they executed the woman they too would have been guilty of violating Herod's laws and Rome's laws and all would have been guilty of committing murder.  In fact, that was the trap they had set for Jesus...if Jesus said, "stone her" then Jesus could be accused of murder; if He said, "don't stone her" He could be accused of setting aside the Law.  

Committing murder, like the scribes and Pharisees wanted to do, so as to "follow the Law of Moses" was what Jesus was condemning.  How on this planet Earth someone can twist John 8:7  from being a condemnation of murder to a prohibition on confronting GC elders of sins, well, that is far beyond me to grasp...

there isn’t anything a GC leader has done that we have not also likely done, unintentionally and unknowingly at first, with someone else in our life with whom we held influence.

Yet once again I must point out this argument is no barrier to our obligation to confront GC leadership for their doctrinal trespasses and their unbiblical practices.  If we ever did indeed sin in the same way as a GC pastor, for example if we taught that men can become apostles today, and then we were confronted for our sin of misinterpreting the Bible by having a more mature brother point out our errors from the Bible, then we become obligated and responsible to repent of our sin of teaching that heresy.  

In the future we then become even more responsible to confront other teachers who teach this same error, correcting them in the same way we ourselves were corrected so that they too may repent.  If, unlike us, they refuse to repent, then they must be disciplined in public.

If this [forum] is just a place of holding onto bitterness, then there is no fruit here.  If we care about GC and remember that they are no more than people just like us, and if we love the church as Christ loved it, then we have broken and contrite hearts and would not waste one second here except in the pursuit of the best for GC.

When a person tells you the secret motives of their heart that explains their actions, you will believe them if you love them (1 Corinthians 13:7).  Most of us on this forum have revealed in word what our true motives are.  Most of us are motivated by a desire:
 - to see GC leadership repent in public of their unsound doctrine and unbiblical practices,
 - to see GC leadership publically recant and withdraw and correct their unsound doctrine which they taught to us,
 - to see individual GC leaders apologize specifically and individually for the specified errors they taught us,
 - to see GC leadership start teaching only sound doctrine,
 - to see GC leadership stop applying abusive practices (like closed session excommunications) and replace such practices with biblical actions (like implementing all of Matthew 18, especially step 3)
 - to educate the general public on the abuses of doctrine and practices which we personally experienced, while also hoping that GC abandons such ungodly things so that we can all walk away from the purpose of this forum in good conscience.

If a desire to have GC leaders repent is not a motive spawned from love as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, then what is?

[Reasonable]

"If a desire to have GC leaders repent is not a motive spawned from love as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, then what is?"

It's not the desire that will reveal whether your motive is loving or not.  A victim can desire to see a criminal brought to justice in either hate or love.

Your desire will be revealed in how you respond if these leaders DID do the things you desire.

[EverAStudent]

"If a desire to have GC leaders repent is not a motive spawned from love as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, then what is?"

It's not the desire that will reveal whether your motive is loving or not.  A victim can desire to see a criminal brought to justice in either hate or love.

Shocking!  I am unfamiliar with the notion that repentance is in any way similar to punishment (punishment being how a criminal is brought to justice). 

Yes, a person can want a criminal to suffer punishment either because they hate them ("ha, now he will get the pain that he gave me...oh how I hope he suffers") or because they love them ("finally, now he will have a chance to think about how to change his ways and stop destroying himself and others").

However, the only outcome of repentance is reconciliation with God and with men.  That is, forgiveness and restoration. 

Only love can be the motive behind a desire to have someone repent, for there is no downside, only forgiveness, eternal life, and restoration into the community of Christians.  In fact the one who repents will become your brother and neighbor forever. 

I am unable to conceive of how someone can desire another person to repent from a motive of hate.  Repentance is NOT punishment!!! 

To hope for someone to repent is to hope for them the best possible future for their present and eternal life...that is love.

[Linda]

When a person tells you the secret motives of their heart that explains their actions, you will believe them if you love them (1 Corinthians 13:7).  Most of us on this forum have revealed in word what our true motives are.  Most of us are motivated by a desire:
 - to see GC leadership repent in public of their unsound doctrine and unbiblical practices,
 - to see GC leadership publically recant and withdraw and correct their unsound doctrine which they taught to us,
 - to see individual GC leaders apologize specifically and individually for the specified errors they taught us,
 - to see GC leadership start teaching only sound doctrine,
 - to see GC leadership stop applying abusive practices (like closed session excommunications) and replace such practices with biblical actions (like implementing all of Matthew 18, especially step 3)
 - to educate the general public on the abuses of doctrine and practices which we personally experienced, while also hoping that GC abandons such ungodly things so that we can all walk away from the purpose of this forum in good conscience.

Thanks EAS for your thoughtful response. Well said.

[Linda]

I honestly don’t know that any of them read anything here – not that I distrust you Linda.

I assume that Mark and Brent were telling the truth when they mentioned that Hopler read the forum and contacted them asking them to communicate with us. I don't think they would lie about that.

[FeministRebel]

There's a certain value in unity, grace, and in commitment. They can help us gloss over our differences, and keep pushing toward a common goal. But unity, grace, and commitment should never be excuses to remain under abuse, or to remain silent against real dangers in a community of people who have made themselves spiritually vulnerable to the leadership of others.

Because of this call to unity, it can often be real taboo for many to make the decision to speak out against things we KNOW are morally wrong, but at the end of the day, it is our DUTY to do so. Forums like these serve as communities where people who -- bogged down by thinking they were wrong in speaking up -- erroneously thought they were the problem: that they were not being good enough Christians, or followers, or devoted members of a community, that they were just being selfish.

Often, folks who are seriously emotionally hurt by these misguided leaders and churches, and say something, get characterized as 'having an ax to grind...' But there are far too many people here, with virtually the SAME experience as the next, to be simply random jaded individuals. I never knew any of the people in this forum until years and years after my GCx experience (which was in the mid 90s to early 2000s), and I was virtually shocked to find my story was almost identical to so many others in here -- even the early Blitz movement folks. Knowing that I was not alone in the emotional abuse I suffered at this church, and the attitudes of its leadership, made it possible for me to find closure and healing. You might not think it's helpful, but it is ENORMOUSLY helpful. Wherever there is abuse, the shining light of truth needs to expose it. Forgiveness cannot even begin to happen without acknowledgement of wrongs, and community healing such as that found in this forum.

It was not an easy decision for me to leave GCx. I stayed for many years, and thought that *I* was the problem -- that I wasn't giving enough grace, that I wasn't being a person who was committed to unity. But little by little, I came to understand these people did NOT care about me (for the sake of god, or anyone, or anything). I was simply there for their selfish reasons of needing 'members.' That was all... But the leaders didn't honor me as a person, or extend me much respect. In the end, "the pain of staying the same was greater than the pain of changing." That was a common saying at GCx... I noticed there was little dignity in the way I was treated: no respect for me as an independent person, who at the end of the day, had to make her own decisions about many things. GCx tried to even pressure me, at times, into taking on expensive financial commitments (and to get in debt), to not honor my schoolwork, or my job, etc., for the supposed sake of the gospel. I was often chastised and verbally abused for sharing thoughts on scripture (told I loved to hear myself talk), and that I was going to grow into a bitter old maid (in prayer, mind you), and other such abusive treatments. I had to do what was right for me... This not ALL of what happened to me. I spend a good 7 years there... I'd never stop talking if I mentioned ALL of what I went through there.

For years, I didn't have words to explain to others what I went through... I was numb inside. But thanks to the forum, I can turn to my husband say "Look, read these experiences... read these documents. THIS is all of what I went through." This place is necessary for the healing of many.

GCx is a cult. Plain and simple. I am at peace with that truth now... and just like many horrible things have happened throughout history in the name of spreading the gospel, so must we not gloss over the horrible things done by BAD churches, today. Doing so is immoral and wrong. And it needs to stop.

[Linda]

Jim McCotter and Dennis Clark wrote a book called "Leadership: Elders and Apostles".

http://www.gcxweb.org/Books/Leadership/

You cannot escape the facts that:
1. It was published by Great Commission
2. It was written by McCotter and Clark
3. Clark has been on the National Board of Great Commission for many years. Within the past year or so they began referring to him as "board member emeritus". He still is viewed as a national leader and teaches at national conferences.
4. Neither Clark or the Great Commission national board has corrected the error in this book.
5. The book teaches that unity is the cardinal doctrine. In other words, unity comes before truth. THEY TEACH THAT UNITY TRUMPS TRUTH. That's heresy.
6. This error has been pointed out by many people, for many decades, personally and publicly, and GC has opted not to correct it. For many decades. That can only mean they believe it, or they don't care about correcting error. Choose one.

"May God give us a driving spirit of unity, a spirit that consistently burns brighter and hotter than all jealousy, envy and selfish ambition put together! There must be unity at all cost. When believers divide over so-called doctrine, they are always trampling under foot the cardinal doctrine — UNITY." –McCotter & Clark, Leadership: Elders and Apostles

GC teaches that unity trumps truth. GC believes that unity is the cardinal doctrine. GC teaches that there must be unity at all cost.

[Ned_Flanders]

My feeling is that this is a public forum and the choice for someone to use their time to be involved and contribute to it for whatever reason is entirely theirs.  

This September will mark my 20th anniversary of leaving GCx... and never going back there.  When I left, I was angry, hurt and disappointed about things that happened to me.  I think I was mostly angry at myself for not doing more to stand up for myself.  After I left, I found a wonderful Church that I am still a part of and I also went through counseling.  Not so much for what happened with GCx... but counseling for getting to the roots of my problems that were there before GCx.  I had low self-esteem; no self-confidence and I was held down by fear and shame.  I think this all kept me from not recognizing that GCx was a legalistic, shame-based place that had a hard time accepting understanding people for who they were rather than what that Church wanted them to be.  I think, as someone else told me, GCx was a great place for a lot of co-dependent people who needed someone to tell them what to do with their lives.  

I believe this forum can provide tremendous validation for anyone who went through spiritual abuse, i.e., a Church that uses misinterpretation of scripture, God-labels, legalism, fear and shame-based manipulation to get people to conform to their standards rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to transform the heart.  But having said all of this, I hope people here will not allow their lives to be defined by their unfortunate experiences at GCx.  I don't know that this describes anyone here but I hope no one on this board is stuck in a place where all they want to do is complain about what happened to them in GCx.  If your point is to say that people like that need to move on and stop coming back here to dredge up old wounds that they refuse to move on from, I agree with you.  In fact, I know someone who fits that description perfectly.  However, he was never involved in GCx.  

Real healing for me came from understanding God loves me for who I truly am; finding a fellowship that embraces me; and Christian counseling and therapy.  I've never gotten an apology for things that happened to me at GCx and I don't imagine I ever will.  But the real prize is my joy in the LORD.  That's all I need.