Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.
De-Commissioned Forum
September 21, 2017, 02:25:11 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home   Forum   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: GCC and GCM  (Read 57495 times)
nateswinton
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 264



« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2008, 09:38:31 pm »

Quote
I don't have any personal animosity towards you, and I hope you're able to heal and stop hating me for being loyal to my church.


I've never said that I hate you, and I don't think that I've said anything that would even give a valid basis for that belief.  Hate is a very strong word.  I think that you come across as strangely smug sometimes, and I think that's annoying, but I don't hate you by any means.

I don't hate anyone for being loyal to their church, either.  Believe me, I understand why you're doing what you're doing.  It's understandable to be loyal.  I once backed up a buddy in a fight when he was the one in the wrong.  After the fight, though, I told him that if he ever pulled crap like that again, I'd make sure lost the next fight.  Think of it like that: I backed up GC* several times, and actual put a lot on the line for them.  And they kept starting fights when they were in the wrong, and pulling me into it.  And eventually I thought to myself, "This is stupid, I'm gonna let them get what's coming to them.  In fact, I'm gonna make sure they learn their lesson and stop what they've been doing."

I don't see my comments as "threats", either.  Unless your comments about wanting to improve the article is a threat as well under your definition.  I see maintaining integrity and honesty throughout the article as "improvement" and "maintenance".  I see most of the edits that you and Mr. Pharoah Man (and dozens of IP editors) as often bordering on vandalism (and I often did at the time as well, that's why I didn't defend you guys when Claude and Zan would fight so much).  

You don't edit an Encyclopedia so that it represents something positively, you edit it so it represents it accurately.  Unfortunately for GC*, it's had an honestly abusive past, and some of it's abuses are very current as well.  You don't have to take every edit on the article that reflects negatively on the Movement as the result of a jaded ex-member.  Maybe some people just want the truth about the group to be known.
Logged
Tom_Mauriello
Obscure Poster (1-14 Posts)
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3



WWW
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2008, 08:04:35 pm »

Okay, I started a post offline and it got way too huge!  So I will start with an introduction and just address our new sites statement.  If all goes well I will try and bring some organizational clarity here as well.

First, Hi! I’m Tom Mauriello and I am the Executive Director of GCM. I would be more than willing to be in dialog with anyone here that wants to.  My email address is quite public, or you can pm me for it.  I want to avoid spam bots if possible Smiley

A little about me; I was hired in the GCM office in 2001 as the finance manager.  I was not a member of a GCC or GCM Churches church at the time, and honestly, I had never heard of GC-anything prior to applying.  I was given complete freedom by the leadership at the time to attend any church my wife and I felt led to when the office moved to Orlando.  We chose to attend Northland, A church Distributed, a large independent church here in Orlando in 2001 and have been members there ever since.  After Jeff Kern resigned and Greg Guevara moved back into practicing law, I applied and was promoted to Executive Director of GCM, which was about a year and a half ago.  Greg remains the Chairman of our Board of Directors and a good friend.  I have been graciously accepted and supported by any GCC or GCMC leadership or pastor I work with.  My personal experience has been one of freedom and grace.
We did get input from Nate on the statements on the new website and made some edits based on his recommendations.  I am open to further edits if our statement misrepresents this board or site.  I like Nate Smiley, I got to meet him when he first came on staff with GCM.

Let me also apologize for stating that the complaints were against GCC, implying only GCC.  An earlier edit I had said ‘primarily’ GCC, given that most GC* church are GCC and the ones that do get mentioned here by name tend to be GCC related.  I did not catch that in editing, and we will look at further editing to clarify beyond that. The point was supposed to be that the criticisms are against churches or groups of churches, not GCM the Mission Organization.  I also apologize to any GCC or GCMC folks that have read that (and are reading this here) that got the wrong impression.

It is inaccurate to say that GCM = GCC = GCI, or to say ex-GCM (aka GCI, GCAC, GCC).  I am not the Executive Director of the whole movement of churches (or any churches) and GCM does not set or direct local church theology and ministry.  We have an independent Board of Directors and an Evangelical statement of faith that all employees/missionaries agree to before being hired.  In fact, the churches we serve express a wide array of practice in areas outside of that: young earth vs. old earth creation, eschatology, gender roles, worship style, schooling, higher education (A GCMC Church is currently requiring all of its staff members to take seminary courses through Moody right now, for example), dating, political affiliation, and church governance.  

Short definition of organizational church groups:
    GCC – the 80ish churches associated as the historic GC Movement.
    GCMC – the 14ish primarily campus focused group that had been identified with GCM up until recently.  The list of GCM churches that was linked to in an earlier post is not this group’s definitive church list.  They are working on a new site and it will have a church directory.
    GCM – the mission organization serving the whole movement, and the wider Body of Christ with missionary mobilization.  The list of GCM churches is the list of churches where we have a staff member working.  We will have an updated one on the new-look site shortly and will include GCC, GCMC, Acts 29 and independent churches we serve.

On the issue of separating or separateness of GCM, GCC or GCMC, I think it is being expressed too strongly here.  A better term for most people is probably distinctness, but in relationship.  We believe in the authority of the local church for leadership.  As churches mutually agree to network and group together (GCC, GCMC, etc) those groups, then, should also be given the opportunity for self governance.  We all want to work together, with separate and distinct leadership boards governing the various entities.

Thanks for reading all this and for what grace can be afforded me and my words.
Tom
Logged
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2008, 08:13:45 am »

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your comment. I'm trying to understand, but am still a little confused.

I do feel for you, coming into this in 2001 without a knowledge of the past. I am curious as to when you actually learned about the past history of what I believe you are calling the "historic GC movement". Were you aware when you began working there that that GCM was started by GCC which is really GCI (they admit that on their web page in the history part)? Were you aware of the details of the past abuse. The excommunications, the bad press, the questionable teaching. Most importantly, when did you learn of the apology and how was it presented? Sincerely, or like one GCC leader said in a talk, did they view it as perhaps "too self deprecating?"

Also, Is GCMC a new acronym? I don't think I've ever heard that tossed about. What I am concluding by your comment is that GCM was started by GCC, but is now independent and run by an independent, self-perpetuating board. The purpose is to be a worldwide missionary organization working to plant churches and do evangelism on campuses. As an organization, you have made a break from GCC and only serve them in as much as you work to help send missionaries (collect and receipt donations, do other HR stuff, perhaps make travel plans, things like that). But, GCM has no churches. The churches that used to be GCM are now GCMC?  Am I close in my understanding?

So what is your relationship with, let's say, The Rock in Minneapolis. The Rock is part of ECC which is a GCC church. It's pastor is on the GCC board. However, The Rock is listed as a campus church. (But now you tell me campus churches are really GCMC churches. Do they have a separate board? I can't find them listed. Who is on the board of the GCMC churches? Do they have a web page?)

Also, about the conferences. Does GCM do any? Faithwalkers is GCC, right? How about LT and HSLT? Are those GCM?

That's all the questions my brain can process at the moment. I'm really trying to understand, but hope you see how it is difficult for some of us when there are so many "GCwhatevers" that all have board members in common and share a common history. GCM, after all, was started by GCC.
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
namaste
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 201



« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2008, 08:14:09 am »

Mr. Mauriello-
Is there a place where one can conveniently access a list of the "14 or so" GCMC locations?

Please forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but the acronyms are totally out of control in your post.  "That's not a GCMC group, it's a GCC church with a GCM staffer."  I went cross-eyed while you tried to explain which group was which, and what the distinctions were.

That said, I appreciate what you're trying to do, and wish you nothing but the very best.
Logged

Om, shanti.
namaste
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 201



« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2008, 08:23:18 am »

Quote
Oh yea, one other thing: I had lunch with Dave Bovenmyer the other day, and in many many ways he's not crazy like so many of the GCC'ers that we've become used to. It doesn't freak me out that he's on both boards. If Mark Darling was on both boards, I'd be much, much more nervous. Dave, though, I think he's more trapped than anything.


Nate-
I'd just like to point out that this is the same Dave B. who willfully misled several individuals about the existence (and nature) of the Articles of Association, and to whom I had to send several progressively obnoxious letters to in order to secure a copy of said documents.

I understand that there were almost certainly other forces pressuring him to avoid providing me with those documents (even though the law demanded he comply with my reasonable request), but people who behave the way Dave B. did are just the kinds of individuals that I'm concerned about being on the board of either organization.
Logged

Om, shanti.
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2008, 08:24:40 am »

Tom,

One more thing. The GCM web page says that in 2007, GCM became a member of the NAE. However, when I go to the NAE members page, I see that only GCC is listed. Is this a mistake that the NAE needs to correct, or are you basing the claim of membership by riding in on the coattails of GCC? Thanks for answering.
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2008, 09:32:58 am »

Hey Tom,

Something else came to mind.

Here is a cached link to the old GCM web page.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:_XCtBSEAJN4J:www.gcmweb.net/about/meetteam.asp..

We have in writing a note from Brent Knox, in which he is defending the integrity of GCC by referring us to the council of reference on this GCM page. (By the way, Ray Ortlund passed away last year, so you might want to take him off your list.) So, you can see our confusion when someone on the board of GCC, but not on the board of GCM mentions that we should refer to the Council of Reference and gives us the GCM link (from your old web page).

Since the link on the cached page doesn't work anymore, here is the list that Brent referred us to as the Council of Reference for GCC.

http://kairos.la/buzz/

I guess what I am saying is, that if you are indeed separate from GCC, the people in GCC need to get the memo.
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
MidnightRider
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 290



« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2008, 09:59:51 am »

Tom M.,

If you spend some time reading some of the material on this site, you will see that the complaints are not about which acronym did what. Regardless of which GCx you are talking about, it is pretty much the same people with the same ideas and methods.

I was in GCx in the early 1980s. I was familiar with the names GCI and GCC. The others came along later. Why should I care which part of the movement is called by which name?
Logged
jehu
Administrator
Regular (15-99 Posts)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 94



« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2008, 03:15:22 pm »

I don't suppose we'll get any clarity on why there is a new acronym, GCGF, and why an organization of some few tens of thousands needs to operate with so many legal identities.
Logged
puff of purple smoke
Administrator
Household Name (300+ Posts)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 598



« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2008, 05:09:21 pm »

Hello Tom. Thank you for posting here.


In the 1991 weaknesses paper, published by GCAC(GCC), they described GCM as such:
Quote
Indeed, our mission organization, Great Commission Ministries, requires that those who wish to minister on campus as staff members have a college degree.


The 2001 GCLI document "Church History: Great Commission" further states the following:
Quote
Today, GCM acts as the campus and international mission agency for the Great Commission Association of Churches.


According to the GCC website:
Quote
In 2005 GCM, which had been providing leadership and pastoral care for a group of campus churches, was redefined and refocused as a service ministry serving the entire Great Commission movement. GCM exists to support the movement by helping mobilize Christian workers for ministry in the US and around the world through training them to raise financial support and other missionary support services.


Another GC church's website states:
Quote
GCM, which is GCC's international mission organization


If these two groups are so distinct, why are there so many GC-published statements where GCM is referred to almost like its the property of GCC. I know they have seperate boards and seperate tax papers and all that, but phrases like "our mission organization"? "GCM exists to support the movement"? "GCM, which is GCC's international mission organization"? These make the two organizations seem about as close as they could be. Coupled with the knowledge that GCM was formed out of GCC, and founded by GCC leaders, and also coupled with my own personal experiences in a GCM ministry that was actively involved with GCC, I am having a very hard time believing that GCM is somehow immune from the problems GCC has and should therefore not be grouped together with it. Please explain statements like the ones above.
Logged
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2008, 10:44:33 am »

I just got off the phone with the director of membership of the NAE.

He told me at first that GCM was a member of the NAE.

I asked him, to clarify whether or not he meant GCC or GCM. He said, "Aren't they the same organization?"

I said, "No, they are two distinct organizations and I know that GCC is a member because they are listed on your web page, but I'm wondering whether or not GCM is a member."

His next question was rather troubling as he said, "Why do you want to know?" Like what business of it is his why I want to know?

I said, "Because their web page claims they are a member, but yours doesn't."

He then said GCM had recently applied, but currently was not a member. The board of the NAE would be meeting in three weeks to decide whether or not to grant GCM membership.

I asked him when GCM applied and all he would tell me was that it was sometime this month. I asked him whether or not it was last Friday and all he would say was that it was sometime in February.

So, as it stands GCM is NOT currently a member of the NAE although they claim to be on their web page.

http://www.gcmweb.org/who/default.aspx
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
Angry
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 103



« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2008, 11:16:24 am »

So once again this group distorts the truth to serve their short sighted means.

If any of you out there are contemplating joining this group, please exercise caution.  The lines between truth and fantasy are constantly being erased and re-drawn by this group.

Angry
Logged
puff of purple smoke
Administrator
Household Name (300+ Posts)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 598



« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2008, 11:41:42 am »

According to the new GCM Website's History Page, GCM joined the NAE in 2007.
Quote
In 2007, GCM became a member of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE).  

Yet it was actually GCC that joined in 2007.

How seperate can these organizations be if they are claiming each other's memberships?
Logged
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2008, 11:57:23 am »

One of the most frustrating aspects of this whole thing is that some leaders words are not trustworthy. And, the sad thing is that this brings disgrace upon all the leaders in some way (I'm referring to the ones are choosing to only listen to their fellow leaders because of some misguided teaching on slander. Consequently, many leaders remain in the dark and are unaware of the deception carried on by their superiors.) because they present themselves as a unified "band of brothers."

When you try in good faith to meet with leaders and they mislead by telling half-truths or hiding important information, a trust has been broken.

Also, for us, this is not about personal offenses. We did not leave because anyone hurt us. We left because we believe that while a lot of what they believe is good, there is some very unsound, and uncorrected teaching that has occurred in the past and continues.

Please, stop deceiving us. Don't tell us you are part of the NAE if you are not. Don't tell us that the statement you signed is a statement of clarification when, in fact, it is a statement of error. That is deception.
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 962



« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2008, 12:31:06 pm »

I would bet that the majority of people working with GCM and GCC think of themselves as two parts of the same organization.
Logged

Glad to be free.
theresearchpersona
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 418



« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2008, 04:21:26 pm »

Quote from: "Linda"
I just got off the phone with the director of membership of the NAE.

He told me at first that GCM was a member of the NAE.

I asked him, to clarify whether or not he meant GCC or GCM. He said, "Aren't they the same organization?"

I said, "No, they are two distinct organizations and I know that GCC is a member because they are listed on your web page, but I'm wondering whether or not GCM is a member."

His next question was rather troubling as he said, "Why do you want to know?" Like what business of it is his why I want to know?

I said, "Because their web page claims they are a member, but yours doesn't."

He then said GCM had recently applied, but currently was not a member. The board of the NAE would be meeting in three weeks to decide whether or not to grant GCM membership.

I asked him when GCM applied and all he would tell me was that it was sometime this month. I asked him whether or not it was last Friday and all he would say was that it was sometime in February.

So, as it stands GCM is NOT currently a member of the NAE although they claim to be on their web page.

http://www.gcmweb.org/who/default.aspx


Mrs. Linda,

Please document the date and time of your phone conversation, the person you spoke to, etc.. This is very important: and tuck it away (in mind and on media) for safekeeping. Thanks.
Logged
puff of purple smoke
Administrator
Household Name (300+ Posts)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 598



« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2008, 04:26:24 pm »

I noticed that GCM has modified its website, specifically the portion of the "Questions & Answers" page I originally wrote about. Here is what it used to say:
Quote
I have read some criticisms of the Great Commission movement online.
There is a small but vocal group of online detractors of Great Commission Churches. They say they have complaints with GCM, but in actuality their concerns are with Great Commission Churches—not with GCM as a mission organization. They misrepresent GCM when they label any church associated with the historic Great Commission movement as a “GCM church.” As a mission agency and distinct 501c3, GCM is not under the authority of Great Commission Churches. We would direct those who desire more information to Great Commission Churches’ website.


And here is what it says now:
Quote
I have read some criticisms of the Great Commission movement online.
There is a group of online detractors of the Great Commission movement. They typically identify their complaints with GCM, but their concerns are actually with churches associated with the historic Great Commission movement or with GCM Churches—not with GCM as a mission organization. They misrepresent GCM when they label any church associated with the Great Commission movement as a “GCM church.” As a mission agency and distinct 501c3, GCM is not under the spiritual authority of any one group of churches. We would direct those who desire more information to Great Commission Churches’ website or ask them to contact us directly.

Our desire is to be open to criticism and concerns and to receive them well. If you have questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us here. All communication will be held in the strictest confidence.


I guess we are now just "detractors" and no longer a "vocal" group of "detractors."

That website also still claims they are members of the NAE.
Logged
puff of purple smoke
Administrator
Household Name (300+ Posts)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 598



« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2008, 04:31:49 pm »

Also, what is this supposed to mean:
Quote
They typically identify their complaints with GCM, but their concerns are actually with churches associated with the historic Great Commission movement or with GCM Churches—not with GCM as a mission organization.

?!?! Our complaints are with GCC or GCM churches, but not with GCM as a mission organization?
Logged
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2008, 06:14:29 pm »

About the change on the web page....sigh....

I was just thinking about that blog post we found a while back that made mention of Jim McCotter speaking at TRC in Tempe, AZ. I don't know what type of church it is...GCM or GCC or GCAC or GCMC...but I went back and read the post and found the link you gave to the page where I think you must have copied the post.

Here's the link:
http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/McCotterASUArchive.htm

I am copying and pasting it in case the link doesn't work:

Quote
TheNerb     
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: The Rock Church Tomorrow!!!
Hey everyone, do all that you can to get the word out...tomorrow we are blessed to have an Amazing guest speaker leading TRC...Pastor Jim McCotter will be here speaking! You might recognize his name, He's one of the original Founding members of the GCM. This is a real treat for us to have him here you guys. Round up everyone you can, and no matter what you do, don't miss it..this is bound to be an impactful, awesome time tomorrow!
Brent


Anyway, I don't know who "The Nerb" is or "Brent", but whoever this person is seems to think that Jim Mc was one of the founding members of GCM. Apparently, he didn't get the memo telling everyone that GCC and GCM were different organizations.

Sigh.

What I am wondering is whether or not anyone found out any more about this little talk. Anyone have a tape of it? Anyone know if he's spoken anywhere else at any GCM events? Is TRC in Tempe a GCMC or GCM church or just a plain old GCC church? Anyone know, anyone, anyone?
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
puff of purple smoke
Administrator
Household Name (300+ Posts)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 598



« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2008, 07:56:34 pm »

Quote
Is TRC in Tempe a GCMC or GCM church or just a plain old GCC church?

According to the GCC and GCM church directories, Tempe is listed as both GCC and GCM, but "The Rock" is specifically listed as GCC. I guess someone needs to inform Brent about how unique and distinct the histories of GCC and GCM are?  Smiley
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.1.1