GCC Website Criticism of Those Who Criticize! How ironic!

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[2xA Ron]

Rick Whitney said about the apology (these are notes from a talk on his web page):

I recognize that some of you are here today because of the strength of this excellent paper.  It showed a certain humility and a willingness to admit our mistakes. 
   
But if in your eyes, this is the paper that best describes our history, it would be overly self-deprecating.  God was with us in the beginning and God is with us today.  He led us then and He wants to lead us now.

God has greatly blessed us, men. 

“To have no loyalty is to have no dignity and in the end, no manhood.”  - Peter Taylor Forsyth

If we don’t understand this in our heart, then in our heart’s we will eventually feel like a spectator.  And then inevitably, a critic. 
   
- the Cause  photo.    Is there not a cause?  Could it have been an honor to be accused of being a cult, those many years ago?  Did we have something then, that may have been lost over the years?

I know you're trying to show from this that the leaders of the GCx have no intention of following through on the apologies of the Statement of Error and/or are trying to roll them back, but I think you may be reading that meaning into the quote here.  The quote says, "If in your eyes, this is the paper that best describes our history" etc.  It does not disavow the accuracy of the SoE, but instead says it isn't the full picture of the GCx's history, that God has been with the GCx and continues to be with it, and that there is something ("a cause") in the church worth fighting for.  It does not specify what that "something" is and it seems to me a purely unfounded assumption to say it must be the things apologized for in the SoE.

Do not even we acknowledge that there is some good to be praised in the GCx?  Isn't that why we have a section in this forum called "Good Times" whose description says, "not everything about the movement is bad"?  If so, wouldn't we *gasp* actually agree with the quote, at least in part?

[Linda]

Not sure what your point is or why you keep changing the topic of this thread. I repeat myself because I am aware that posts just a few days old get forgotten or never read by newcomers as proven by some of your comments. There is plenty of evidence available to back my points. I am not interested in continuing this discussion with you.

http://www.gccweb.org/podcasts/episode-1837/courageous-reconciliation.mp3

37 minute mark.

For the details of the Bill Taylor excommunication see here and note that Matthew 18 was not followed because Mr. Taylor was excommunicated from the worldwide body of Christ without being allowed to speak. So much for Matthew 18.

http://www.gcxweb.org/Audio/ExcBillTaylor-12-09-1976.aspx

[araignee19]

"Misdemeanors"!? Ha!

It wasn't a "misdemeanor" in my experiences, and it sounds to me like GCx has toned down a lot between the start of the movement and my time there.

[2xA Ron]

Linda:

I was under the impression, based on your own comments (which I read in their entirety before I made my first post, reading also every new post before I made a reply) that this thread was about how the leaders of the GCx were making a personal attack on us and being generally unrepentant, with the first of several examples being the link in your first post.  I was questioning whether or not such attacks were being made, and questioning whether or not we should make the assumption that they are even when (as I pointed out of the article in the original post) the evidence doesn't support the assumption.  Maybe I should have known better than to question here.  I apologize for assuming that critical thinking was encouraged when it came to accusations aimed at GCx leadership.

There doesn't seem to be much point in continuing now that you've decided to turn your finger on me.  Have fun hating on your brothers in Christ.

[Linda]

Sigh.

[Ned_Flanders]

GCx' "Response to Criticism" statement reads like "Those who criticize us don't even know us; and if they were a part of this Church at one time and now, if they are on some blog going on about how this Church hurt them, it's because they were the cancer, not us.  They didn't work out here because they probably weren't true believers in Jesus Christ anyway.  So God protected us from them, not the other way around.  And, if anything, they owe us an apology."  The point is, anything looks right when you put a God label on it and say "it's us against them."  So basically, they have dismissed this forum as a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about.  

Whatever.

What concerns me about this forum and the people who are on it is, "What is the next step in your life?"  Believe me... I applaud anyone who got out of GCx.  And I'm sorry for anyone who got hurt there.  However, if you have held on to your faith despite being part of a place that didn't know how to 1) let people be who they are in Christ and 2) let go of legalism and allow the Holy Spirit to work in people's lives, then I say, God bless you.  I do hope that you are taking healthy steps, whatever they are, to recover from your GCx experience.  I think this board is a very good place for validation and healing but I don't think it can provide the whole healing process.  Honestly, you can be hurt be someone here on this website just like you were hurt by people in GCx.  

I say all this because of my experience with my brother.  He was never a part of GCx (he only visited once or twice but was never a member) but before I joined GCx, we were part of a Church that was very legalistic and believed that a person could lose their salvation through everyday sin.  Even one sin.  That's why I left after six years.  I think he stayed there for twelve.  And even though he left there many years ago, he still complains about the place and won't go and talk to a counselor to help him deal with what happened.  

I was a member of GCx for eight years.  I experienced hurt, misunderstanding and rejection there and I saw them mistreat other people.  So I believe what people say here was real.  I just hope you've taken a look at what attracted you to that Church in the first place.  

[Linda]

Ned,

Good thoughts. I do think that the concept of "moving on with your life after GC and being in a healthy place spiritually" and posting a warning on this forum is not an "either/or" situation. You can do both.

A 25+ year missionary who works with cults in Japan told me that when people leave high control groups/false religions, God often directs them in different ways. Some leave and never look back. Some speak out for a while and move on. And some make it their life's work (especially those involved in things like Scientology or Mormonism) to expose the false teaching. All can be valid, Spirit led options.

I'm sorry about your brother and that situation. High control groups can do much damage to individuals and the Gospel. This is why false teaching must be exposed. I think new believers and people who really want to be sensitive to God are damaged the most.

I do know many individuals and families who have been messed up spiritually by this group through their teaching on commitment for life and obedience to elders on matters of preference (things like jobs, who to marry, where to live) who have found the help they needed on this site.

[Ned_Flanders]

Ned,

Good thoughts. I do think that the concept of "moving on with your life after GC and being in a healthy place spiritually" and posting a warning on this forum is not an "either/or" situation. You can do both.

A 25+ year missionary who works with cults in Japan told me that when people leave high control groups/false religions, God often directs them in different ways. Some leave and never look back. Some speak out for a while and move on. And some make it their life's work (especially those involved in things like Scientology or Mormonism) to expose the false teaching. All can be valid, Spirit led options.

I'm sorry about your brother and that situation. High control groups can do much damage to individuals and the Gospel. This is why false teaching must be exposed. I think new believers and people who really want to be sensitive to God are damaged the most.

I do know many individuals and families who have been messed up spiritually by this group through their teaching on commitment for life and obedience to elders on matters of preference (things like jobs, who to marry, where to live) who have found the help they needed on this site.

Linda,

Thanks for the response.  I hope you understand I was not trying to say "either keep posting on this site about how GCx hurt you" or "forget about it all, get up and get on with your life" as if it was one thing or the other.  I agree with you, you can do both things.  This board is a very important place and I'm glad I found it.  I have been validated here.  I just think it is a part of the solution for healing from that place and not the whole prescription.  

I absolutely think a life commitment of speaking out against GCx is a valid place... just like a person who lost someone to drunk driving becoming and activist against drinking and driving.  Whatever helps you heal.

[Linda]

One little thing, I don't view myself as "hurt" by Great Commission. I believe I was deceived by Great Commission theology and leaders. Some of it was intentional and some of it was because they are deceived and are just passing along what they sincerely believe is truth.

The solution to deception is not reconciliation. It is correction.

[Linda]

I was randomly reading some old posts yesterday (these were a few years old) and noted a comment by EAS that caught my eye.

He pointed out that no one in a leadership position in Great Commission ever corrected the horrible theological errors in the Elders and Apostles book--a book that was published by Great Commission.

Not only that, one of the authors, Dennis Clark, is currently on the national board.

I also noted, I think midnight rider mentioned it, that Dennis Clark was named an "apostle" along with Jim McCotter. Does anyone know if Jim and Dennis are still apostles?

[EverAStudent]

Keep in mind that the GC National Board pushed this doctrine for almost two years.  They published it in book form for McCotter and Dennis Clark, they advertised it for them in the Cause magazine, they organized and held a national elders conference to introduce the doctrine to all the pastors, and all the churches went along with it for another year after that. 

My point?

If they ever denounce the doctrine (and the book and the video) as the heresy that it was then they must also discipline all the National Board members and all the pastors who embraced and taught the doctrine. 

A pastor's primary role is to protect the local church from heresy and to teach it how to recognize the difference between sound and unsound doctrine.  For two years GC was engulfed in the apostolic heresy, teaching it en masse to every congregation in GC. 

If they ever go public to denounce the heresy they must FINALLY take disciplinary action against all those who introduced the heresy into the denomination (Clark would be first on my list) and against all the pastors who believed it and repeated it to their congregations.  That disciplinary action would demonstrate godly integrity (but it seems they only want to be zealous for discipline for "lack of loyalty"). 

Now, they must decide:  be faithful to God and correct the error and correct in public those who introduced the error, or, take the ungodly but safe route and pretend it never happened. 

[Huldah]

If they ever repudiated the doctrine, it would be more in consistent with their past behavior to congratulate its promoters for meaning well and for having the humility to admit they were wrong, than to discipline them in any meaningful way.

[2xA Ron]

Well, it doesn't look like Elders and Apostles has been publicly repudiated, but neither it nor any other Jim McCotter work seem to be available on the GCC website.  Elders and Apostles has been replaced with New Testament Church Leadership in Action Today, which is much more Biblical and moderate, to say the least.  Of course, that may not matter to anyone here: apparently nobody got excommunicated over it, and there seems to be the mindset in some that until what was done unto us has been done unto others justice cannot be satisfied, because they still owe us a hundred denarii (Matthew 18:21-35). 

[Huldah]

Ron, I'm sensing some bitterness on your part toward this forum, and I don't understand the reason for it.

No one here has expressed hatred for the leadership. No one here is wishing them ill. We just want to see them abandon their false teaching.

I genuinely believe that if the leaders of GC would admit they're wrong about the main doctrines under discussion (membership for life, submission to the elders in nonScriptural issues, and the local congregation as the bride of the elder), and if they would abandon the practical application of those doctrines, then the need for this forum would pretty much dry up.

Wishing you well, sincerely. I get the feeling you're on your way out of this forum (but I hope I'm wrong!), and I can only urge you to cling to the Word of God above and beyond your sympathy for any individual.

[Linda]

My friend who has been helping people get out of cults in Japan for many years, told us something a few years ago that we haven't forgotten.

He said, when you look at error in the church, one way to think of it is like buttoning a shirt. If you start buttoning your shirt, but are "off" on one of the buttonholes, the entire shirt will be buttoned incorrectly. In order to fix the mistake, you can't just keep going, you have to go all the way back to where the mistake happened in the first place, undo that button, and then you can re-button the shirt properly.

My point? For Great Commission elders to skip over correcting significant past error and just say "we don't think that any more, here's what we think now", but not correct it for the hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people who were exposed to the wrong teaching is profoundly irresponsible and demonstrates that they are not correctly handling the word of truth, giving instruction in sound doctrine, and rebuking those who contradict it. An elder who does not do these things is not fit to be an elder.

Disciplinary action does not equal excommunication. For example, a pastor who commits adultery, if he repents, should not be excommunicated, but he is no longer fit to be a pastor. He has disqualified himself and the proper disciplinary step is removal from that position.

[Huldah]

2xARon, if you're still reading here, I wonder if you might be willing to do something? Would you please ask John Hopler to publicly state, for the record:

1 - whether GC still stands by the doctrines of lifetime membership and submission to the elders in major life decisions?

2 - if yes, whether he and the rest of the leadership are open to changing their position on those topics?

I've tried to make it easy. These are Yes/No questions. In the open letter from John Hopler that you linked to earlier (http://issuu.com/aaduwall/docs/2013_reconciliation_letter__gcc), he specifically says he's willing to clarify what the church teaches today. (I'd copy and paste his exact words, but the electronic formatting of the letter is making that difficult. Is there a link somewhere to a plaintext or HTML version?) He claims that some of the accusations against GC are based on their former teachings rather than the church's current teachings, but he doesn't address specific accusations. If we're in error, and GC is not teaching these two things any more, is he willing to come out and state that they were false teachings, once and for all? Can he at least meet us that far?

Just two questions. Yes or no.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, that is also my point...any "pastor" or "elder" who had bought into Clark's and McCotter's apostleship doctrine have proven themselves unfit to be pastors...they did not "pass the test." 

1) They did not have the scholarly knowledge to see the doctrine as biblical error (they are unfit as doctrinal watchkeepers).
2) They did not protect the church from that error.
3) They did not take a bold stand for the truth, but retreated in fear.
4) They actively taught error (they are unfit as teachers of the Word).
5) They never published a retraction of that heresy nor offered repentance for having taught it; in other words, they are still NOT above reproach in this matter.

To state it in summary form:  Every GC pastor who advocated Clark's and McCotter's error proved themselves unfit for the pastorate and should resign.  Period.  The time for "reconciliation" and "correction" is long long past; such men are simply proven unfit and should move out of the way in favor of those who meet the 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 requirements.

[araignee19]

Well, it doesn't look like Elders and Apostles has been publicly repudiated, but neither it nor any other Jim McCotter work seem to be available on the GCC website.  Elders and Apostles has been replaced with New Testament Church Leadership in Action Today, which is much more Biblical and moderate, to say the least.  Of course, that may not matter to anyone here: apparently nobody got excommunicated over it, and there seems to be the mindset in some that until what was done unto us has been done unto others justice cannot be satisfied, because they still owe us a hundred denarii (Matthew 18:21-35). 

If a pastor of a church commits adultery, would you rather that the leaders and the pastor quietly admit that this was wrong, quietly remove the woman from his life, and replace the affair with a marriage? Or would your rather the pastor admits publicly what happened, step down from leadership, and make it clear what he did was a sin?

I see the way GCx often deals with errors they have taught (and I think teaching heresy is a sin - maybe that's incorrect), as close to the first scenario. They quietly shove it under the rug and try to correct the error going forward without drawing attention to it. I think what needs to happen is a public admittance of the wrong, and pointing it out, instead of hiding it. This needs to happen because the problems are still there, just more quietly. Until GCx leadership actively fights the errors by pointing them out, saying why they were wrong, and educating on how to avoid those errors, the problems will keep happening. And I'm not talking about a one time thing, like the 1991 SOE. This needs to be regularly taught, in order to avoid repeating history, just like we need to teach our children about the mistakes of past generations. 

So to me, simply removing wrong materials and replacing it with something more mild is not enough. Even if they are doing it for good reasons and not as a PR stunt. Not even close to good enough.

[Linda]

Huldah, Great points, the bigger question to me is why does 2xA Ron have to be a mediator? Hopler reads this forum. That is a known. He didn't need anyone to do his bidding. He could have easily posted and clarified all by himself.

EAS, I knew that was your point, but from 2xA Ron's comment, it looked like he thought "discipline" meant "excommunication". I suppose in GCx it does, but not for the rest of the world. I was trying to interpret for him!

[2xA Ron]

EAS, I knew that was your point, but from 2xA Ron's comment, it looked like he thought "discipline" meant "excommunication". I suppose in GCx it does, but not for the rest of the world. I was trying to interpret for him!

I did read "discipline" as "excommunication," so thanks for interpreting.  I apologize for misunderstanding.

Ron, I'm sensing some bitterness on your part toward this forum, and I don't understand the reason for it.

No one here has expressed hatred for the leadership. No one here is wishing them ill. We just want to see them abandon their false teaching.

I genuinely believe that if the leaders of GC would admit they're wrong about the main doctrines under discussion (membership for life, submission to the elders in nonScriptural issues, and the local congregation as the bride of the elder), and if they would abandon the practical application of those doctrines, then the need for this forum would pretty much dry up.

Wishing you well, sincerely. I get the feeling you're on your way out of this forum (but I hope I'm wrong!), and I can only urge you to cling to the Word of God above and beyond your sympathy for any individual.

I assure you I am not letting go of the Word of God in favor for sympathies for any individual.  I have to admit I was pretty disillusioned in this forum earlier on.  Earlier in this thread, there were some specific instances where GCx leaders were alleged to have made personal attacks on us or have said that the GCC had made no changes at all since the Statement of Error.  However, when I looked closer at the context in these instances, the allegations didn't add up and it seemed to me that we were twisting their words.  I tried pointing this out several times and it seemed I was ignored.  The only response I saw was more and more instances and allegations being brought up, all of which seemed to be similarly twisted.  I sadly concluded that accuracy and truth took a backseat to vilifying the GCx leadership on this thread.  Even though it was said that there was no hatred for them, making repeated, broad-brushing accusations of someone without regard for whether or not they are true doesn't seem like anything but hatred to me.

I have no illusions that the leaders in the GCC are angels.  I know their approach to error is all wrong.  araignee19 summed it up nicely.  Public teaching and public statements are quietly taken down and replaced (or just taken down).  This leaves a lot of people (inside the church and otherwise) under the impression that the false doctrine still stands--and when these people are leaders, that basically means that the false teaching just continues to do damage.  It is not right of them to do so, and it certainly isn't Biblical.

But I don't want to fall into the other extreme either.  GCC leaders are not demons, either.  They are learning from their mistakes--painfully slowly, but still learning.  They are replacing false doctrine with correct doctrine.  They are backing away from their previous hostility toward critics.  They are--in their own clumsy, hesitant way--reaching out.  They still have a long way to go, but I don't want to ignore how far they've come.

I also want to make sure that, in criticizing them, I'm checking myself by the Bible and by the facts.  That's why I question whether or not their leadership is personally attacking everyone on this forum when a critical reading of their "attack" doesn't back that up.  That's why I hesitate to say all leaders who ever taught error in the GCC should resign.  I know that teaching and holding heresy is a sin, and that the pattern for addressing pastoral sin is for the pastor to resign, but I have to be honest and say I don't see that in the Bible.  What I see in the Bible is elders being publicly rebuked for public sin (1 Timothy 5:20, no mention of removing them), even the sin of leading others astray into false teaching or practice (Peter, by his actions, led Messianic Jews into the false belief and practice that they needed to keep themselves separate from Gentile Christians, but he did not resign his apostleship and later called himself an elder--Galatians 2:11-14 and 1 Peter 5:1).