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Author Topic: GCx and healthy choices  (Read 1687 times)
Godtrumpsall
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« on: March 30, 2018, 12:08:45 pm »


I felt that this conversation between myself and GoingClear is an example of a healthy discussion between a brother and sister in Christ, who don't see eye to eye fully,  and felt it deserves to be on it's own thread.  I have a respect for GoingClear views, even though ultimately we don't agree.  






   
Re: My understanding of the Great (C)ommission:
« Reply #114 on: Today at 10:43:16 am »
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Quote from: GoingClear on Today at 06:33:58 am
GTA,
I think it’s commendable you are using discernment and learning about false teachings of certain pastors to proctect your family. I’m involved in a ministry specifically designed to reach those in the cults (unorthodox Christian teachings such as Jehovah’s Witnessess, Mormons, Islam, Christian Science, etc..) there is no greater blessing than seeing the blinders so to speak of someone in one of those religions come off as they see the real Jesus and the true Gospel of Christ. I  attended a local Gcc church for many years and would agree with you there is no unorthodox teachings being preached. I would say however, that the grey areas such as dating, parenting, etc.. did at some times become legalistic for some but we could agree to disagree on that as it affects believers differently. All of the cults I mentioned above have one thing in common. They were started from a leader (Joseph Smith of Mormonism, Charles Russel JWs, Mary Baker Eddy Christian Science, Muhammad of Islam) who claimed they recieved a  “new revelation” from God thus voiding Biblical teaching such as the Book of Mormon or the Koran. These leaders of cults deviated from the essentials of orthodox Christianity such as the Triune Godhead and the identity of Christ (Michael the archangel is Jesus in JWs, and that Jesus is a separate God and Lucifer’s brother in Mormonism, or only a Prophet such as the case in Islam).

Pastors you mentioned such as Bill Johnson, Kennith Copland Benny Hinn, or Joyce Myer are still Orthodox in their teachings but distort teachings such as wealth and health in the prosperity message or Benny’s Hinns abuse of the Holy Spirt and I would agree with your asssment of them.  My point here is if you found out that the church you atttended, the pastor was mentored and “shepparded” under Bill Johnson, Joyce Myer, or Kennith Copland but still preached orthodox Christianity would you still attend that church knowing they were heavily influenced under dangerous teachings? Jim McCotter claimed he received a “heavenly vision” while reading the Book of Acts on how to “restore” the New Testament church that no other denomination was emulating fully and claimed the authority of Apostle (CITATIONClose[4] Pile, Lawrence (2002). MARCHING TO ZION: A Personal History and Analysis of the "Blitz Movement" aka Great Commission Association of Churches (2nd ed.). Albany, Ohio: Christians United to Remedy Error (CURE). Many of McCotters teachings is what led to the “Statement of Weekness and Errors Paper” 1991 (CITATION Enroth, Ronald (1994). Recovering From Churches That Abuse.)

When I found out that McCotter heavily influenced both Brent Knock and Mark Darling personally in their beliefs and teachings we made the personal desicion to leave based on who the main pastors of Evergreen were directly influenced theologically by. We personally felt some of the issues raised in the 1991 weekness paper had crept back in regarding some of the teachings in the grey areas, and that we couldn’t serve and fellowships without a discouraged heart.  All I would say is you be consistent with your own Pastors and use the same discernment as you do against the organizations you listed above. Ultimately It comes down to the individual and where the Holy Spirit leads them personally. You are not wrong for staying and we were not wrong for leaving. For some the environment in a GCC church that models much of what we left  McCotter believed works for some. For others it can and has done some damage and that’s when one must decide to find a different church like we did based on our own convictions. It was never a personal issue we had with the pastors or leaders and that’s also why I chose to remain anonymous here as to not affect my relationships I hold dearly with my blood family and former church family who still attend that church,  but a doctrinal change we felt the Holy Spirit leading us too. We reconciled Biblically, forgave, and trusted in Gods sovereignty that He indeed works all things for good.

Your brother in Christ.

GoingClear

Thank you for this response, and I see your points, and I so appreciate your honesty and maturity in all that you said.  I understand where you are coming from, and I understand why you left.  I value your healthy viewpoint "we were not wrong for leaving, you are not wrong for staying".   I also appreciate what you are doing to share the true gospel with those in unorthodox religions!  That is amazing, and I pray God will guide you in this, and give you many opportunities to share with those that are held in bondage to false teachers and a false gospel!  

When I hear the phrase "I had a vision from God...."  I cringe and want to run the other way.  I don't say the following in a proud way (if you knew me, you would know I don't brag about myself, pretty much never) , but I feel I have a gift of discernment, it is not a pleasant gifting to have.  It asks of a person to say hard things, to point out flaws, it is terrible.  I also feel a weight from this, there is so much wrong going on in modern Christianity, it scares me. I don't go around telling others where they are wrong, but from time to time I have spoken up about ministries, and mostly I pray.  I have had friends come to me (within and outside of GCx) asking me about new ministries (so many new ministries and authors and blogs...so many voices) what I know, what I have read, my thoughts and initial reactions because they know my level of discernment and heart on these matters.    

I don't know if I would say exactly that the false teachers I mentioned are fully orthodox in their teachings. When one teaches that our power supersedes God's, there are some major flaws that goes against the Gospel and is a dangerous teaching.  When a preacher starts to chip away at the omnipotence of God, this is no longer orthodox Christianity, but in a sneaky back door sort of way, how satan operates to deceive many.  I don't know who Jim McCotter is, except for the little information I have read online.  I believe the man had some wisdom. I would also say his "vision" was not gibberish like so many today that talk about their visions and prophesies from God.  Did he claim it to be a new revelation from Christ that gave him the permission to deviate from the word?   I don't think so but maybe you and expound on this?   His vision was not out of line scripture.  However, him claiming the authority of a apostle...I highly disagree with, this is a slippery slope.  But on the other hand I wonder the context of his statements, is that information in the resources you cited?  What has happened in Jim's life after church is indicative of a man who lacked Godly wisdom though.  A fall from grace certainly.  Do you know what caused him to leave...was their dissension  with in the church leaders?  Was he pushed out?  I know he desired to impact media for Christ, and needed a lot of money to do this, and left perusing business deal after business deal leaving some disaster in his wake, also another sign that would make me question his walk with Christ. To me it sounds like GCx was gracious in the way they separated themselves from Jim, not to dishonor him as it sounds like he had some admirable qualities that encouraged people to be bold in their faith.  But they did separate.  They took time to seriously re-evaluate what the church was, and going to be in the future.  

As far as discerning my own church...I have had the opportunity to know MD personally.  I have watched him over the years, I have witnessed him in good times and in bad.  I have witnessed his character first hand, not just as a congregant.  I know his wife, I am  close to some of his adult children.  He does not hide anything.  All of his messages are online for anyone to listen.  He preaches truth, his message is a pure gospel message, his desire to see young people grow in faith, to be successful in their Christian walk is his greatest desire.  To have others understand the all encompassing peace and love of Jesus Christ drives him.  Not power, not authority, not money, not fame, just the gospel.  I know his heart and life, I know that he values God's word above all else.  He does not twist scripture.  He also gives a lot of advice, personally and from the pulpit.  Some do not like this, but his advice does not ever go against scripture.  He knows the dysfunction that so many come out of when they come to Christ, and he desires nothing less then to help people succeed spiritually and personally.  A false teacher would not encompass these qualities.  

Below are some points I think you are probably aware of, but I will list them here as I know many people visit this forum and are reading these posts.

Traits of a false teacher/teachings..how would you recognize a false Christianity?

1.  Different source...where does the message come from?  The true teacher sources what he says from the Bible, the false teacher relies on his own creativity, makes up his own message.

2.  Different message-what is the substance of the message?  For the true teacher, Jesus Christ is central.  For the false teacher Jesus is in the margins "They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who brought them"  2 Peter 2:1  (sounds very much like Word of Faith movement).

3.  Different position-in what position will the message leave you?  "They promise....freedom while they themselves are slaves of depravity, for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him" 2 peter 1:4

4. Different Character-What kind of people does the message produce?  The true believer pursues goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love.  2 peter 1:5

5.  Different Appeal-Why should you listen to the message?  The true teacher asks "what has God said in his Word?" while the false teacher asks "what do people want to hear?  What will appeal to their flesh?"

6.  Different Fruit-what result does the message have in people's lives?  The true believer is effective and productive in his or her knowledge of Jeusu 2 peter 1:8

7.  Different end-Where does the message ultimately lead you?  The false believer experiences "swift destruction" 2 peter 2:1


And here

We are told in 1 John 4:1 and other passages to “test” the message of a teacher or prophet to see if what they say is truly from God. The reason is that “many false prophets have gone out into the world” and are leading believers astray. What are some of the identifying marks of a false teacher/prophet?  It is often said that the best way to recognize a counterfeit is to be familiar with the real thing. A Federal agent doesn’t become an expert in identifying counterfeit money by studying counterfeit bills. He first studies genuine money until he becomes so familiar with the real thing that he can easily tell the difference between genuine and counterfeit bills. In the same way, the best way to avoid being deceived by a false message is to study and know the true message as taught in the Scriptures. The Bible itself stands as the final authority against which everything else is to be measured. As Messianic theologian Tim Hegg says, “A person determines if a stick is crooked by putting it next to a straight stick. Let the Bible be your straight stick.”

1) False Prophecy
The most obvious way to tell if someone is a false prophet is if they prophesy falsely. The Torah says that we are not to revere the one who speaks in the name of the Lord presumptuously (Deuteronomy 18:22). That is to say, if someone claims to speak in the name of the Lord and they declare that something will occur in the future, and what they declared doesn’t come to pass, we are to disregard their teachings.
2) Abandonment of God’s Ways
Even if someone gives a prophecy and it comes to pass, they still might be a false prophet. According to Deuteronomy 13:1-5, if a prophet tries to convince you to “leave the way in which the lord your God commanded you to walk,” you are not to listen to their words.
3) Distortion and Minimization of the Gospel
An entire book of the Bible—the book of Galatians—is dedicated to defending the Gospel against false teachers who were attempting to pervert the true message (Galatians 1:7). The apostle Paul spends considerable time exposing the false doctrine that salvation by grace through faith in Yeshua wasn’t enough.
Having made that point, it could perhaps be said that one of the identifying marks of a false teacher is one who consistently stresses other biblical doctrines, whatever they may be, at the expense of the Gospel. For instance, as beautiful as the Torah is and as much as the Scriptures support its ongoing authority in the lives of believers, it doesn’t save you or make you righteous. This is not to diminish the value of the Torah, but to elevate the Gospel to its rightful place.

4) Obsession Over Foolish Controversies
According to Paul in 1 Timothy 1:3-7, false teachers lack understanding of the Scriptures and sound theology. Therefore, they “devote themselves to myths” and drag people into “vain discussion.” In a number of places in the New Testament, such as 2 Timothy 2:16, we are told to stay away from “pointless discussions.” Why? “For people will become more and more ungodly.” Thus, a false teacher who promotes foolish controversies leads people into ungodly behavior.
5) Selfish and Opportunistic Behavior
The prophet Micah describes false priests and prophets as those who “teach for a price” and “practice divination for money” (Micah 3:11). It appears that false teachers are concerned only with entertaining the flock in order to achieve their own selfish gain.

And from Desiring God:
 https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-surprising-truth-about-false-teachers
Watch Their Doctrine — and Lives

What we might find surprising — both from Jesus and his apostles — is how revealing the everyday lives of false teachers are about their falseness. They are not just false in their teaching, but also in their living.
Beneath their doctrinal error, however subtle and deceptive, we will find ethical compromises in tow. And those don’t usually come out overnight; they take time. But they will come. Here’s how Jesus prepares us in Matthew 7:15–20:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” (see also Luke 6:43–44)
Jesus says it twice so that we won’t miss it: You will recognize them by their fruits. His warning may sound clear and simple at first, but as we all know, trees don’t bear fruit overnight. Eventually, however, the fruit (or lack thereof) will be manifest.

This site was also interesting
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/7char.html


I have tested, as the Bible instructs us to do.  I also believe that if the local ECC leaders were influenced by Jim, God helped them let go of any false doctrine they may have learned or been influenced by, because it is not in their lives.  I cannot dispute the evidence.  There are gray areas, and I fully agree with your statement that the gray areas effect believers in different ways.  I happen to agree with most of the gray areas, because I find them to be backed scripturally, and they have been very beneficial in my own walk.   But as you said we all need to let the Holy Spirit guide us.  On a final note I will say I know they are absolutely not perfect men or leaders.  I do not hold them on a pedestal, and because I see their lives, I know they are imperfect, they make mistakes, they can offend others; we all can and do.  But they continually strive to be Christ-like, and continue the walk.  
Bless you,  GTA
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