GCx Claims low divorce rate?

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[blonde]

Yes they do.

See this: http://www.gccweb.org/2-5-divorce-rate

Wow!

[Linda]

My husband and I are each on the board of two non-profit ministries and we know lots of couples, most of whom don't attend a GC church. I can only think of 1 couple (we didn't know them very well, but I will count them) that got divorced in the last 10 years (just saw her at the grocery store last week and she told me her story--she was in GC, but left and got divorced, so she would be in their stats also). Since I could come up with over 500 couples, that means the divorce rate among my friends and acquaintances (Christians and non-Christians) is .2%. Therefore, you should be my friend. If you are my friend, the odds of getting divorced are .2%.

[Linda]

This just in. I just thought of another divorce among my circle of friends and acquaintances. Also a GC couple. Now my stats are up to .4%. Those GC couples are bringing my numbers up. Not liking this!

[newcreature]

ruh roh... Linda, you better disavow any knowledge of me!  

I am a divorced ex-GCx member who would increase your statistics some more. But since I am just an internet persona, I really can't be counted in your and Terry's circle of true friends and acquaintances. However, I wish I would have been in that circle; maybe I would still be married.

[Huldah]

From the link above:

"The pastors were asked to count the number of committed member couples that were part of their church in the past 10 years--together with the number of these couples who have since gotten divorced. (If a couple left the church and got divorced later, they were included in these statistics.)"

I see a lot of room for fudging here. For one thing, if a couple left the church, would the pastors even know they had gotten divorced later? And what, exactly, is a "committed member couple"? Does this imply that some of those who divorced were never really "committed" in the first place? What's the significance of the past ten years? Two of the couples I knew back in the late 70's, whom I never would have expected to divorce, have done so. In one case the husband was a deacon, and in the other case, the husband was an elder. Are they part of the statistics?

It might be wise to take GC's statistics with a grain of salt. It sounds like the 2.5% figure is the result of an informal survey with a certain amount of guesswork thrown in. That's not exactly how accurate statistics are obtained.

[Linda]

Newcreature, you definitely count as an acquaintance. Was your divorce within the 10 year time frame? If so my statistics go to .6% and all the divorces I know of in the last 10 years are GC people.  Seriously, divorce is a very sad thing and I don't mean to make light of it. I'm with Huldah on the misuse of statistics. Also, I agree, why the 10 year time frame?

How about this statistic. How many affairs have taken place among GC attendees/leaders? When I mentioned the closeness of "the band of brothers" to MD, I said, "Do you realize how protective elders are of each other. A pastor could have had an affair and the congregation wouldn't even know about it?" He replied, "I'm sure it's happened." What a strange thing for a GC leader to say.

[newcreature]

Hi Linda, I know you weren't making light of divorce; I simply thought you were humorously exposing the self-serving and self-righteous claims made by GCx. To me their claim came across as another prideful way of saying: "Look at us, we are better than all the other Christians in America." And Huldah added the obvious point about their unscientific and unverifiable statistics. I think it was Mark Twain who said: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Since they arbitrarily picked 10 years, I don't qualify for their survey (and your stats stay at 0.4%!)  

I have no "statistics" to prove anything, but based on the legalism and "sanctification by works" that plagued the first 30 years of GCx, I imagine there are even more divorces that occured. I remember an article in The Cause many years ago when one (or a few) anonymous elder(s) wrote about their addiction to pornography. The addiction was so bad they even put it in their brief cases and brought it to national elder's meetings. (Maybe someone who has access to that article will post it in here someday.)

I was impressed by the honesty of the article, but since it was in GCI's national, in-house publication, it made me wonder how many and what other secret sins GCI leaders struggled with and succumbed to. Like the Apostle Paul said, legalism arouses the flesh -- and since nothing good dwells in our flesh, that is a very dangerous thing to arouse.

Thanks for the vote of inclusion! It will be nice to fellowship in person with you and your family when we enjoy our new bodies and our new mansions in heaven someday soon! In the meantime, take care and God bless you.

[Linda]

As Terry and I were walking today, he reminded me of two couples I had forgotten about who got divorced. Both of them were GC. My stats have gone to .8%. All the couples had a GC connection.

It is hard to figure out the point of that article. Arbitrary statistics and time frames. (As were my "statistics".) Makes no sense. Seems as though they are trying to say, "Join us and you will never get divorced. We are better than everyone else."  Personally, I think that their divorce rate is kind of high for the time frame.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, setting aside GCx arrogance and legalism for a moment, I have been plagued with questions about Christian behavior.  My own wife's sister and her husband (both ex-GC'ers) just divorced because he had been having an "emotional affair" with another woman for years. 

Why is it that Christians who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit have the same ungodly divorced rate of 50% as the unsaved (check Barna for the truth of this statistic)?  Does not having the Holy Spirit empower us to be less selfish spouses, to be less hedonistic in our relationships, to be more Christlike in humility toward our beloved life partner?  No? 

Who in this sin-focused world is teaching our congregations that hedonism and selfishness leads to good marriages?  Where do we Christians get such absurd ideas from? 

Does not God's Holy Spirit within guide us to the paths of righteous living, OR NOT???


/end of rant/

[AgathaL'Orange]

Here's a thought:

GC focuses on the church.  The family is a cog in the wheel of the church.  The family is how the world is reached.  The family as "family" is put on the back burner and church is on the front.  All those sermons "serve with your kids", "men give your kids a vision", all that pressure adds up to families that are ready to implode.  In our GC years, I needed my husband home as I had a very sick child and was dealing with that plus the depression that seemed to go with it.  I had a lot of resentment over their hold over my husband's time.  They kept him busy planning 1-2 lessons a week, GCLI, retreats, prayer meetings, working at the church on top of his job.  We weren't staff or anything, but that's what GC does.  They are utilitarian in their odd courtship practices and not respectful in the least towards marriages, other than apparently whether or not you get a divorce.  I know staff that would meet very early for prayer and then late at night.  The hours were strange and long!  To top it all off, they have a weird submission focus AND pressure parents to produce practically perfectly home educated, perfectly obedient children WHILE simultaneously giving very high percentages of income to the church.  Where does that leave time for marriage?  Our pastor told us he never left his kids with a babysitter when they were young.  He had 8 at that time.  Some people need romance, love, attention, freedom, financial security, and lots of down time to grow a good marriage.  I'm so glad we left them.  We married before GC and were best friends.  GC didn't manage to pry us apart, but they sure did try under the godly looking disguise of Christian service.

[Linda]

That is sad about your wife's sister and husband. Sorry to hear that.

I know the Barna numbers suggest that statistically Christian marriages have similarly high divorce rates as the general population which is terribly sad and difficult to grasp.

The thing that I find faulty about the claims of the GC article besides the unclear nature of what defines a "committed Christian" and limiting their survey to leaders memories   is that they seem to be suggesting we should compare their 2.5% rate to the 50% rate of the general public. Obviously, the 50% statistic doesn't have a time frame. So, for example, any GC elders who have been divorced prior to their joining GC would be included in that 50% statistic. In other words, comparing 2.5% to 50% is not comparing "apples to apples".

I read the article and the reasons they believe their divorce rate is so low is pretty much what every evangelical church would believe, it's not unique to GC (except for #3--the commitment to the group/unity reason). It takes me back to a thought I have often had which is that GC people really need to "get out more" and "get some fresh air". They think they are unique. They are not. Many evangelical churches (I assume they put themselves in that category) have similar, if not lower 10 year stats among the committed. Meaningless data.

As the Scriptures say, "If you want to boast, boast only about the Lord."

[Linda]

Good points, Agatha. Sad points, but good ones. Our involvement in GC took away valuable family time & valuable time from helping our neighbors, relatives, other friends. Our 10 year friendships with GC people have pretty much all dwindled. I can think of one lasting friendship. There is no commitment to friendships apart from commitment to the church. You leave the church, you lose your GC friends, but you gain your life back.

[wastedyearsthere]

To me this is more of GCx shady statistics and methods.  I know of at least 4 ex-GCx couples that are divorced -- they left the church before they divorced.  I don't think you would be able to stay and divorce and feel welcome -- especially those more "committed" couples. 

My question is how many GCx couples are still married (because of this pressure) but unhappy?  Who would admit to that?

[EverAStudent]

To Linda and Wasted, yes, I agree, the "statistics" of GCx divorce rates are invalid absurdities.  They are not in fact data or statistics.  Memories are anecdotes at best.

We actually discussed the invalid nature of their "statistics" from that same article in another thread some months ago. 

I am particularly amused by the reality that GCx goes out of its way to discipline, and therefore kick out into the street, those of its members who are contemplating divorces.  How could their divorce stats be anything but low when they disown anyone who gets divorced?  It's kind of like the police department bragging that only 2% of its force is comprised of active criminals...when they get caught being a criminal they get fired then jailed.   

If their divorce rates were anything but low in any given church would not the national leaders descend on that church to find out why it is tolerating evil and not putting the evil doers out of their church?  GCx marriages are not "better," GCx churches are just less willing to let families with damaged marriages stick around for long.

[Huldah]

Here is the 2008 divorce study from the Barna group website:

http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/15-familykids/42-new-marriage-and-divorce-statistics-released

The Barna group draws a distinction between "evangelicals" (26% divorce rate, one of the lowest in the survey) and non-evangelical "born again" Christians (33% divorce rate). The definitions of "born again" and "evangelical" are explained on the same page.

Barna's "evangelical" divorce rate is ten times higher than the rate claimed by GC. Is GC really that much more successful than the average evangelical church? Especially given the tremendous amount of stress placed on GC members' time, finances, and emotions? I would expect the GC divorce rates to be higher than average, not lower. 2.5% compared to 26% just seems unrealistic. I'd like to see what numbers a trained professional statistician would produce for GC.

[Linda]

Thanks for the link, Huldah. It was good to look it over and read about the study.

Barna's "evangelical" divorce rate is ten times higher than the rate claimed by GC.

This is the conclusion that I would imagine GC wants everyone to draw from their statistic. However, this would be a false conclusion. GC allowed the pastors to set the criteria of just who a "committed Christian" is and they set an arbitrary time frame of 10 years. As far as I can tell, the Barna study did not say "Have you been divorced within the last 10 years?" It also gave specific criteria for the individual to answer to identify them as "evangelical" while the GC study allowed the GC pastor to define who was "committed" and who wasn't.

Aside from that, the whole thing reeks of pride. Join us, we do marriage right. We are better than the rest of the evangelical churches.

[Linda]

Another thing I noticed on the Barna study was that the 33% figure was under the category of "Have Been Divorced". It did not say, "Have Been Divorced Since Making a Commitment to Christ" or "Have Been Divorced in the Last 10 Years".

This means, that to compare "apples to apples", GC would need to ask the same question as Barna did, "Have you ever been divorced," to their group. Right off the bat I can name two GC pastors who have been divorced and would therefore be included in Barna's 33% figure.

I was totally taken in by several GC fallacies and it is my desire to help people see them. The 2.5% statistic they brag about is meaningless.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I think GC has delusions of grandeur collectively. 

[Huldah]

Aside from that, the whole thing wreaks of pride. Join us, we do marriage right. We are better than the rest of the evangelical churches.

I was totally taken in by several GC fallacies and it is my desire to help people see them.

That's the thing. When I was part of GC, the leaders were all quite young. They were very fond of quoting (from the Psalms, I think), "I have more wisdom than all my elders, because I keep Thy commands." In other words, a heart to obey God trumps age and experience, and those were the only two options. You were either young and obedient, or old and not so obedient. The third possibility--that there might be pastors and churches out there who were not only equally obedient, but had the advantage of decades of faithful service--seems to have been completely overlooked.

This same sort of thinking seems to be at work when GC talks about their marriage longevity. They succeed because they're devoted to the Lord and because they take discipleship seriously. That implies that Christians who end up divorced simply weren't trying hard enough. What a slap in the face to divorced Christians who truly love God and tried very hard to save their own marriages. I guess we should assume they got divorced because they didn't love God enough?

[G_Prince]

What exactly do they mean by "commited?" It seems like if someone got divorced, GCX's internal poll would automatically place them in the "uncommited" catagory.

Side note: I've never been involved in any GCx marriage counseling, but from the second hand information I've heard, it seems like GCx almost always took one person's side. It seemed like one spouse was always cast as the home-wrecker and one was the saint. Anyone else have this perception?