GCx: Founded and Established on Oppression and Lies

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

Agatha, as always, you make me laugh.

Neverbeengcm, excellent points.

The subtle lies become a little less subtle when you start considering them all together.  They don’t want you to consider them and list them one at a time in succession. They don’t want you to talk about them with anyone else. The truth is too clear that way.  The church leaders just sprinkle these lies one at a time when they can.  They do it quickly and subtly during a sermon. (I have listened to a few of them online and have seen it personally).  They make sure to have a few elders in the front row nodding their heads in approval when the subtle twist occurs.

The above paragraph jumped out at me in light of my experience and in light of the argument Sam made that the title of this thread was harsh or mean or whatever.

(BTW, Sam, to suggest that this post was started by hormonal woman is the equivalent of me suggesting you are hot headed because you are Hispanic. That was a low blow.) Plus, has blonde ever said he/she was a woman? I don't think so. But, back to the topic.

We stayed at our church for 10 years for several reasons. Most of them have to do with lies and misrepresentations. Even when we asked questions, we did not get clear answers, or the answers were pushed ahead (ie, I'll get you that info).

The assumptions that gave us patience (in no particular order):

-We thought the teaching was bad, but we gave them a break because they liked to remind us they were "uneducated men" who shouldn't be looked down on because of their youth and inexperience. We were trying to be courteous. We gave them a break because they got a lot right.

-We had never heard of their history. Jim McCotter & "The Blitz" were never mentioned by name in the 10 years we were there. We did wonder what the deal was with Ames. There seemed to be an inner circle of people from Ames. We didn't understand it, but gave them the benefit of the doubt and chose to think these people just knew each other from college and that's why they were so close.

-We were naive. We believed people at their word. We knew "pastors" were "recognized" within the "congregation". We honestly thought that if you wanted to be a pastor, you went up to a pastor and said, "Hey, you know what, I'd like to be a pastor." Then, I guess we thought that they would give you assignments like leading a men's group, or teaching a class to determine what gifts someone had. WE HAD NO IDEA THAT THERE WAS A SECRET SOCIETY OF GUYS WHO HAD BEEN GIVEN THE TAP ON THE SHOULDER BY ANOTHER PASTOR! We never heard of GCLI until one Sunday evening a pastor asked for the GCLI guys to come up and lay hands on a missionary and pray. My husband and I looked at each other and mouthed, "GCLI?" When he said that, about 10 guys in the front two rows stood up and went on stage! We were astonished! Had no idea! I think we even said something like, "Oh, the pastor wannabes." Actually, I think my husband was asked to be one of them once, but we were so dumb we didn't know what it meant to "apprentice" under a pastor. It just sounded like a time waster! Anyway, your line about sitting in the front row, made me laugh. So true. Also, at that time, we still didn't know you had to be chosen by a pastor. Silly us. Then, a year after we left, my husband blogged (and we got shunned), it was suggested to us that we were jealous that my husband wasn't asked to be on the "pastor track". Hilarious to think that he would be jealous that he wasn't asked to be part of something that he didn't know existed!

When we did have major concerns (after an all church conference where MD taught that leaving your local church was the equivalent of divorcing your wife), we began meeting with leaders. (I am using the word leader in place of pastor/elder, btw.) We also began to Google. By Googling we learned of the Statement of Error. We asked Brent (who sits on the national board and was an elder when the statement was written). He said he vaguely remembered a "statement of clarification", asked if we would like a copy, and never got us one. Pastor SB was sitting there. At the time, I don't believe he had ever heard of the error statement.

So, Sam, I find the title of this thread accurate. You can mislead people by what you don't say. And when you know full well that there was a 13 page statement of error and you look bewildered and say, "It seems to me that it was more of a statement of clarification," you have crossed a line. You have not told the truth.

Also, Sam, Larry Pile's name came to us through a Google search and my husband contacted him. He did not search us out. It was Larry who gave us the copy of the Statement of Error a month after we asked Brent about it. Had Brent gotten us the statement, I don't think we ever would have spoken with Larry. (BTW, GCx did a brilliant thing by offering the statement online. Now people don't call Larry and find "the rest of the story"!) My husband spoke with him once. He has never contacted us.

[lone gone]

We sang a dirge and you didn't mourn, we payed the flute and you didn't dance. 

From my vantage point outside the entire discussion,  I know who I'd rather have a conversation with... and that is Sam Lopez.  He and I both came from the church in Ames, Iowa and learned under Jim McCotter.  I left that church before Sam. He and I have an experience with what it was like to be led by McCotter and crew, and of being close to the leadership.

When I first encountered Sam here on this forum, he and I corresponded offline. One of the first things he did was to ask if he had hurt me in any way while I was in Ames and to offer his sincere apologies and my forgiveness.   As we corresponded further I came to understand him as an individual person, to learn his manner of speaking and his ways of social interaction.

I cannot say that he is all that winsome at times, but I can say that he listens, that he states his opinions, and allows others to state theirs. He also knows that there is only so far he can go to come to a mutual understanding with someone who is dealing with their past and his past.

he has just exhibited that in his interaction with NeverBeenGMC.   

I don't have any professional psychological diagnostic training. I do have 20 years of training and experience as a police officer ( after leaving Ames Fellowship Church).

My training and experience had me recognize people with emotional problems and poor social coping skills. It takes a certain amount of interaction to determine the nature of someone's condition.  In my opinion, both Sam and Neverbeen are exhibiting their own versions of poor social skills and emotional problems.

I have them too. We all do. No one is perfect.

Sam is not a secret GMC elder, nor a false brother sent to spy out your freedom. He is an escapee just like most of us here are. NeverbeenGMC is not an escapee.  Why they are posting here is a mystery to me..... all I can conclude so far is that they are as injured as the worst of us and want to join in the complaining. They have found a group who will listen to them.  I've seen this all too often,  someone who needed a crowd that would allow them to talk.... until the crowd started to get bored or creeped out by the speaker.

I am sure I'll get some flack here about defending GMC.  I can assure you I am not their friend and I am not their defender. I  simply call it like I see it..... Certain individuals in GMC still have some serious flaws that are well documented. Not everyone in GMC has them.  To call for the disbanding of GMC to alleviate the flaws is akin to the US policy during the Vietnam conflict of destroying a village to save it from the enemy.  It's like asking God to for the death of a sinner to ensure that they never sin again.   

You will be judged by the standard you judge others by. God will reveal all, even the identities of anonymous posters here. Don't embarrass yourself in front of the Throne of God.... Only three or four people here are completely open about their true identities. The rest choose to remain secret for a variety of reasons..... the most common reason being given is that they are wounded and don't want to be injured further. 

Why and I posting this?   Because I felt my perspective needed to be added to the entire discussion. I'll answer to God for it, but I cannot think why God would reprove me for it.

[Neverbeengcm]

Lone Gone,

First of all...Let me make this clear. I believe that the GCx Cult was founded and established on Oppression and Lies.  That is what the heading says.  I agree with that.   I am not afraid to say that. That is what we should be posting about here...the subject.

Thank you for taking the time to read the many posts in this thread.  I appreciate your input and criticism.  I am sorry you have been somehow led to believe that anything I have posted here is about me.  Again, our postings should be about the subject. I am sorry if I got off track with Sam. I was just attempting to help Sam see that he does not show love or compassion toward people who are feeling injured in his posts.  Apparently he has some issues that I don't understand.  I pray that he finds a way to resolve them and perhaps some day he will find a way to be gentler to his fellow human beings who need a kind word.  We (meaning Sam and myself) are not the ones who have been hurt by Gcx (except perhaps Sam).

I believe some people post here because they are looking for a place to find compassion, love, comfort and some way to feel the joy of our lord in their hearts again by talking with others who have felt the hurt this cult has caused. I hope we can support them and help them feel like they have a voice.

I have a few questions for you, Lone Gone :

Do you think people should be able to post on this site without fear of being reprimanded?

If they are telling the story in their own words and they describe the hurt they feel..is that wrong?

What do you think of the title and what are your thoughts about the title and the content of the initial posting?

I am not here to judge. I am not here to glorify myself.   I am only here to help those who feel hurt in their souls...perhaps lend a kind ear.  I know Sam has been hurt and feels a lot of guilt for his actions in setting up the structure of oppression used by the GC. I really do care about him and any others who have been hurt.  I sincerely do wish him the best.  You said you wanted to talk to him... maybe you could be there to help him in his time of need...even though he does not realize he needs it.  I hope he finds peace and is able to forgive himself some  day. I feel the love of God in my heart.  I want to stand up with those who feel like they are being silenced by others.

Thank you again for taking the time to post here.  Everyone's input and differing point of view will always be appreciated.


God Bless

[Neverbeengcm]

Well said, Agatha.  I have never been a Great Commission member.  So, for me it is unthinkable to have anyone tell me that they need to think for me and empty my checkbook at the same time. But, I know how difficult it can be to disagree with a pastor or someone who is in a position of power in a church. I have loved ones who have succumbed to religious persecution and power hungry zealots.

I have been approached by groups like the GC in my life and spoken/debated with them. They ALWAYS have flawed logic in their way of thinking.   It might make sense if you are in a weak state of mind…but, not if you are emotionally strong.  They try to change your way of thinking and control you like a helpless sheep. If you take a section of every other sentence in the bible, you can change the intended meaning of things Jesus tried to teach us into something very different.  That is what these people do.   I learned that the lies these groups teach are subtle at first.  The idea of being a good Christian is noble and admirable.  They try to make it seem fun, interesting, spiritual and the only path to heaven.
 
The subtle lies become a little less subtle when you start considering them all together.  They don’t want you to consider them and list them one at a time in succession. They don’t want you to talk about them with anyone else.  The truth is too clear that way.  The church leaders just sprinkle these lies one at a time when they can.  They do it quickly and subtly during a sermon. (I have listened to a few of them online and have seen it personally).  They make sure to have a few elders in the front row nodding their heads in approval when the subtle twist occurs. They have one member be the laugh track to laugh when the pastor tells an intended joke. They try to divert you from thinking about how the lie does not make sense.  The pastor talks about something a little bit different for a few sentences.  Then, the pastor reinforces the little twist of the scripture with another little lie.  After attending a few church services it all seems to become normal.  Then they sprinkle in a few little controlling rules that are the fruit of these lies over time. Throw in some guilt about not attending church in the past and soon enough it makes sense to allow someone to control your life.  It sure is a scam.

My brother-in-law was a "pastor" in a church similar to the GC.  One evening, when I was in my 20's, he tried to talk me into his line of crap.  I didn't buy it.  But, he was my brother-in-law.  I wanted to keep peace in our family. He asked if he could come "talk" again. I agreed to listen to him.  The next time he brought a few of his fellow religious nut-jobs to give me the hard sell.  Luckily for me they did not get me at a time when something was missing from my life. I pride myself on being a sincere, caring person.  They tried to take advantage of that part of me.  I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. I talked and debated with them 3 evenings in total (I must have been bored or something). I wanted to honor my sister and understand her husband.  The more they talked, the more I understood that these guys are trying to make me believe that Jesus teaches us that:

-   We all should never question what a pastor/elder says regardless of how stupid it sounds
-   The pastor is God and only HE has the ability to speak to the real God
-   God wants us to give our money to him
-   Men are smarter than women and should be favored throughout their lives over women
-   God wants the pastor to control your schedule
-   God wants us to ignore those who do not think the way the pastor thinks
-   God wants the pastor/elders to think for us
-   God wants us to report others who are thinking on their own to the pastor/elders
-   God wants us to love our neighbor (as long as they believe in the twisted scripture being taught)
-   God wants us to judge others who do not believe that every word of the pastor is God’s word

Does any of this seem to be a little bit off to you?

My sister is the pastor's wife, has 10 children and is hopelessly trapped in a religious cult.  The women all are second class human beings and the men make all of the decisions.  IQ tests and other sensible ways of determining intelligence are not important.  The first thing to consider when determining if you should be listened to is whether or not you have a penis.  Apparently, that is what Jesus teaches us. He must have said that the one thing that makes you intelligent enough to control others.  Sorry if that is too radical for some of you.  But, I don't believe men are more intelligent or capable of leading than women.  We all have a brain and can think for ourselves.  We are all capable of spreading love and compassion.

 *---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

As for DrSam. I truly feel sorry for him.  He does not understand that I don’t have the GC playbook.  I never have had it and I don’t want to have it.  I understand that he is an injured soul who needs to forgive himself for helping to set up the GC before he can move on.  I forgive him.  I hope he can forgive himself, move on with his life after the GC cult days and begin to feel loved

The above quote was previously posted on this thread.  It explains part of the reason I am on this site. Here are some other reasons:

1- I love my dear sweet wife. She happens to be the ex-wife of a current GC elder.  She was an active member of this cult for too many years. Her time with her ex-husband has injured her and her children,  I see the pain this group has caused them and it haunts her on a daily basis.  The scars run deep and I want to be part of the healing. Her healing has begun ...

2 - To that end, I have an opportunity to help her heal and her children heal. Healing from such psychological and spritual abuse takes some time to unwind. And it happens only in a safe enviroment. I want to provide this for my wife and my new children.  They are so deserving. To think they were involved in this cult soley because they loved God and their fellow man and makes them better than their father/ex-husband.

3-Responding to posts here has a been a healing experience for both me and my wife.  She was involved in GC the same time Sam Lopez and Jim McCotter were.  She talks often of what it was like. Although I was not there, I can in part understand, although for sure not fully.  I would like to be a defender for her and for all other who have been hurt.  She feels as though I have a voice and a perspective that is fresh and different (and really direct she tells me)  that somehow cuts through the bull.  She finds that it helps her clear her mind through what can be very conflicting and difficult issues to process in her mind.  So, yes, I see things differently. I can be abrupt but I mean well. Seeing the pain this cult has caused her and her children  (Btw I have not even addressed about the kids), I want to exend a kind word to others who are in pain.

That is my intent, Lone Gone.

[healingmom]

Thanks, neverbeengcm, for your posts here.  I appreciate your understanding and your efforts to encourage people to post their thoughts, experiences and most of all the way our experiences with GC have hurt us.

Thanks for your courage to stand up to people like DrSam who have their own hurts and sins from their past with their association with the Great Commission.  It seems as though DrSam needs to heal before he can fully understand how his posts can have a very negative affect on those of us who feel tormented by the GCx.

[lone gone]

I have a few questions for you, Lone Gone :

Do you think people should be able to post on this site without fear of being reprimanded?

If they are telling the story in their own words and they describe the hurt they feel..is that wrong?

What do you think of the title and what are your thoughts about the title and the content of the initial posting?


The title being that GCx ( which stands for this site, Great Commision Ex-Members) is Founded on Lies and Oppression is TOTALLY IN ERROR.  Get your names correct or face being made fun of.....

That GCC   ( the great Commission Churches ) is Founded on Lies and Oppression is also not accurate. You would have to demonstrate that  from it's very inception, from it's earliest seminal meetings, that Jim McCotter and company called themselves elders and wanted a Controlling form of Church Government.

That isn't so.


Since I started with the Ames Fellowship Church when it was nothing more than 60 people meeting in a the ISU Memorial Union the fall after the Blitz, and I saw the leaders and their actions and words, and I participated for 8 years in all the activities  and lived through the times when the newspapers were calling the ISU Bible study a cult, and I worked on the McCotter newspapers, and participated in the summer outreaches and was there when there were controversies that resulted in members leaving but not being excommunicated, (before the big movement to ex-communicate anyone for that matter) and I finally left on my own and have never been pursued by anyone from that church or any other GC church, even though many of my former friends and acquaintances have gone on to be raised up as elders, (Duane Laugerman, Brent Knox among others) and then even left the GC churches after that (Greg Walters being one).

In the beginning the preaching of the Gospel was most important and church organization was non-existent.  We behaved as a club that naturally found it's own leaders and whose members all enthusiastically participated in the activities. We had one heart to reach the lost and were radical only in our commitment to such a dynamic paradigm of Christianity.  Almost non of us came from a Plymouth Brethren background,  we were Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans and Presbyterians from around the midwest. We were tired of the same old church and we wanted something different.  We found it and each other.

There were no lies,  no oppression.  We were as open with each other as we possibly could be.


Second ,  do I think people should be able to post here without being reprimanded?  By Whom?  By  their former leaders???  By other posters who have a different experience of the events???

There is a portion of this forum where there is no debate,  no reprisals, and it is by invitation only.  THAT is where sensitive wounded sufferers should go for complete non-judgemental support from others.  The public areas of this forum are, and should be, open to anyone to comment about anything.  We should allow non-believers,  other believers and even cultists, to show themselves and reveal their thoughts.

It is not wrong to share feelings and hurts.....that is part of healing.... but in a public place where anonymous posters can and will call anything into question,  that may not be profitable.

I have already given you my thoughts on the title..... it is in error.  I also think it is over-dramatic, divisive and likely to provoke a very emotional response, both for an against the question.

I'll post later about the content of the Original post.

I am now off to church..... and I hope everyone reading this will have a good day.


 

[Linda]

The title being that GCx ( which stands for this site, Great Commision Ex-Members) is Founded on Lies and Oppression is TOTALLY IN ERROR.  Get your names correct or face being made fun of.....

I have been posting here since the beginning. I always thought GCx meant GC"whatever" and that the "x" was there because they changed their name so many times that it was hard to keep up. (GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, etc.) It never occurred to me that it meant "ex-member of a GC church". Go ahead, make fun of me, I deserve it.

About the lies part. If I were typing the title I might have added one more word. Deception. I would have said, "Founded and Established on Oppression and Lies/Deception".

Let's start with the Ames Fellowship Church meeting at ISU Memorial Union that you mentioned. If memory serves me correctly, they told college officials they were a student organization so that they could use ISU buildings for free? They misrepresented the group. Actually, they lied. This was a church led by elders, not a student group led by students. They are still doing this on some campuses.

But, as I recall, the group did not start with Ames. It started before Ames. Haven't read the history for a long time, (and I do realize that the only thing Larry Pile really wants is heads on a platter, but my GC leaders forgot to tell me about the early history, so all I have to fill me in on the details is Mr. Pile–what's a girl to do?!), but if memory serves me right, Mr. McCotter was a self proclaimed apostle. (Now, if he actually was an apostle that is not a lie or deception. If he wasn't, that is a pretty big lie.)

McCotter, of course, is brilliant in his use of fallacies. In the case of the word apostle, he uses equivocation. The word apostle has 2 meanings. There are apostles, as in the guys who had seen Jesus and were chosen by him (Paul qualifies because of Damascus Road) who actually did speak with authority. A class in church history/theology might have helped people see through this one. And there are, apostles as in sent ones/missionaries. When questioned, McCotter loved to say, "No, no, I'm the sent guy apostle, not the apostolic authority kind of apostle." Then, he would turn around and claim to speak with apostolic authority. McCotter never had apostolic authority. This was a false claim. This was a lie/deception.

McCotter and his gang have taught for years that Christians are to give the controls of their life to their elders. This is a lie/deception that is foundational.

As for oppression (the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner). Yes, the misinterpretation of Hebrews 13:17 taught by elders oppresses. Those in the system, working their way to the top to be seen by men (recognized, as they put it) don't see it. I wonder if their wives do? But, let's start with those at the bottom. The babies on the blankets, getting tempted to crawl off those little blankets and being swatted when they do. Cruel, that's what that is. Not at all God like. God never tempts. He tests our faith, but he does not tempt. Burdensome, cruel, unjust, oppressive. I think so.

[MidnightRider]

The title being that GCx ( which stands for this site, Great Commision Ex-Members) is Founded on Lies and Oppression is TOTALLY IN ERROR.  Get your names correct or face being made fun of.....

I have been posting here since the beginning. I always thought GCx meant GC"whatever" and that the "x" was there because they changed their name so many times that it was hard to keep up. (GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, etc.) It never occurred to me that it meant "ex-member of a GC church". Go ahead, make fun of me, I deserve it.

Linda's usage is correct. We used to be in GCx. Now we are ex-GCx.

The slightly-harder-to-type GC* is sometimes used instead of GCx.

And how about if we just skip the part where we make fun of each other.

[MidnightRider]

[...]
But, as I recall, the group did not start with Ames. It started before Ames. Haven't read the history for a long time, (and I do realize that the only thing Larry Pile really wants is heads on a platter, but my GC leaders forgot to tell me about the early history, so all I have to fill me in on the details is Mr. Pile–what's a girl to do?!), but if memory serves me right, Mr. McCotter was a self proclaimed apostle. (Now, if he actually was an apostle that is not a lie or deception. If he wasn't, that is a pretty big lie.)
[...]

You are correct. The group started with the Blitz tour. You can read all about it in Marching to Zion.

Jim McCotter did not claim the title "apostle" (at least not publicly) until around 1984 or 85 (I forget exactly), after the leadership had been concentrated in Silver Spring MD.

[calgal]

Jim McCotter did not claim the title "apostle" (at least not publicly) until around 1984 or 85 (I forget exactly), after the leadership had been concentrated in Silver Spring MD

.

Midnightrider:

If I am not mistaken, I think it is about 1984 as well. I was part of the church plant in 1983 from Ames Fellowship Church in Iowa City and I remember hearing the apostle title in 1984. I remember others being appointed soon after when I was in Silver Spring for the second Leadership Training summer of 1985.  A "sister" and I brought Jim a chocolate milkshake. I threw the thank you note away when I moved recently. He has caused my family enough grief.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Yep, as a founding member, I can confidently say the "x" refers to the prolific name changing this organization has done... In the paper over a pesky quote about bruising your kids?  Change the name!  A kind hearted pastor writes an apology that now paints your group in a bad light?  Change the name!  Want to make people think you've changed when you haven't?  Change the name.

GCA, GCAC, GCM, Ames Fellowship, Campus Fellowship, GCLI, GCI, GCNW, GCdads, you name it.... it's all GCx or GC whatever. 

[MidnightRider]

Midnightrider:

If I am not mistaken, I think it is about 1984 as well. I was part of the church plant in 1983 from Ames Fellowship Church in Iowa City and I remember hearing the apostle title in 1984. I remember others being appointed soon after when I was in Silver Spring for the second Leadership Training summer of 1985.  A "sister" and I brought Jim a chocolate milkshake. I threw the thank you note away when I moved recently. He has caused my family enough grief.

Well, calgal, if anyone ever asks you if there are apostles today, you can reply, "Yes. In fact, I gave a chocolate milkshake to one!"   

As far as I know, Dennis Clark was the only other person given the title of apostle.

I remember once (earlier in the 1980s) my GCx pastor gave us a lesson about the "local church" cult that had moved into the area. One of their errors, we were told, is that they believed their founder Witness Lee was an apostle! How could anyone believe such a crazy thing!

[MidnightRider]

I am not lone gone but here is my $0.02 on your questions.

I have a few questions for you, Lone Gone :

Do you think people should be able to post on this site without fear of being reprimanded?

The words "fear" and "reprimanded" kind of load the question. 8-) But setting that aside….

We are to welcome the immature person, but not for disputes about opinions. If anyone fits in that category, I hope everyone will have the wisdom and compassion to take it easy on that kind of person.

That having been said, part of the problem many of us have with GCx (and perhaps other churches, too) is that we have been treated like children our whole lives. It is assumed that we are sheeple who can't be trusted to think, lest we come up with some dangerous idea. Part of growing up is thinking through your opinions and coming to some justification for them besides just believing what you are told to believe.

It is not bad for us to have our beliefs challenged by someone else. Every criticism is an opportunity: an opportunity to explain your ideas further, an opportunity to learn from further study, an opportunity to see the other person's point of view, and an opportunity to change your mind on the (rare) occasion that you discover you are wrong.

Maybe the other person will offer their criticism in a respectful way, maybe not. Try to deal with the message and the messenger each in the appropriate way.

If they are telling the story in their own words and they describe the hurt they feel..is that wrong?

Of course not. And BTW, we have some anonymity on this forum, which can help in this area.

What do you think of the title and what are your thoughts about the title and the content of the initial posting?

The answer here is not so obvious. A few years ago, I might have agreed with you. Now I am starting to think there was no deception at all. The group was founded because of McCotter et. al.'s desire and intent to reach the world with the gospel in this generation. They have been up-front about this all along. I think almost everything about GCx, good and bad, flows from that.

Certainly that will give everyone an opportunity to criticize, which will in turn give me an opportunity to take my own advice.

[lone gone]

The first step to humility is to realize you are proud. To think you're not conceited, means you are indeed. C. S. Lewis
love the quote.... and I suffer from pride about the same as anyone else. I'd call others posting here as being conceited but they'd not like it, would deny it, and simply deflect the comment back onto me.... which would be correct... while at the same time rejecting their own pride.

Thanks Midnight Rider for your clarification. You own the place so your rules are what count.

From my perspective and usage GCx could be implied as GCwhatever..... but that isn't what my experience in life would lead me to believe as a casual reader.   GC* is not an enormous mount more complicated to type after all.


MY experience started in Ames.... and I lived through the very beginnings of the ISU Bible study and Ames Fellowship Church,

Did ISU Bible study abuse their status as a student organization?  Quite definitely!  Did they  confuse their status as a student group with that of a "church"?  

Yes but not at first.....  At first the only thing that existed was ISU Bible study, and the only place it met was on campus. There were no house churches.... those came later. There was no intent to defraud the system, take University funding or support to pay for the livings of those who were teachers. Jim and Dennis and others made their own livings in whatever way that they did. There were no deacons or elders at first There were leaders.... but that was about it.   We were all simple, idealistic, in-experienced, and totally excited about what was happening.

 Members of the ISU Bible Study attended churches off campus if they wanted to. We all considered our situation to be no different than the other para-church groups such as Navigators, Campus Crusade, etc.  Other churches in town had their own member led bible studies taking place on campus.

Over the next 1-2 years the "Church" concept came into consciousness. Then the complications came to light and adjustments had to be made. We met off campus for breaking of bread, we organized into house churches with deacons as leaders and we recognized elders as being over our church and we still met on campus as ISU Bible Study.

Shrug. It happened.  That doesn't mean that it was evil and nefarious from the start.

Lucifer started off as an angel of light before he fell.    People fall.  Jim and Company fell, into mistakes and into error and into worse error.

It would be like trying to attribute blame for the behavior of a criminal.  Did his parents cause that person to become a criminal? Did society cause it, did the church cause it, did a mutation or medical condition cause it?

Trying to assign blame for a later development in an organization to an earlier evil condition is futile.  Bernie Madoff didn't start out as Criminal,  he turned into one at a later date.  Same thing with Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton, and a whole host of televanglists.....

So I utterly reject the notion that this entire movement was a sham from the git-go.  It sure enough turned into one, but to say it was founded on Lies,Oppression and Deception is not accurate.

Marching to Zion is pretty accurate but it isn't inspired and it isn't perfect......

Time and Time again I have seen this same dynamic happen in this world. The Tea Party  and Occupy Movements are just one current manifestation of the same thing that happened on a college campus back in 1973.   Get some perspective on all this, look for commonplace parallels and you'll be better able to understand and not be SO judgemental.   There, but for the grace of God are you.... a brand plucked from the flames ( John Wesely )

  

[EverAStudent]

Agatha, it is common practice to use an "x" as a wildcard placeholder to substitute for an ever-changing letter.  GCx is a generic form of "GCI" or "GCC" or "GCAC" or "GCM" or any other form of "GC..." 

As for the members of this forum, they would be known as ex-GCxer's, because they left GCx.

My wife tends to be overly literalitstic in her use of the English language.  If she hears someone say "everyone went to the mall this past Christmas" she protests that not literally every single person went to the mall instead of recognizing the normal usage of the phrase properly means, "a whole bunch of people went to the mall to shop for Christmas." 

Similarly, when someone says that GCx was founded on oppression and deception it is overly literalistic to insist that this must mean that the very first convert was deceived by intent.  Silliness.  What the phrase clearly means is that very early in GCx's history they resorted to a highly controlling organizational structure and to lies to build up and maintain the congregations.  This early deception has been well documented by Pile's book and even here on this forum (see the thread http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/pretense-the-church-as-student-organization ).

[anonymoustoday]

yey, i remember that thread about disguising churches as student organizations.  i just went there to read it again.  here is the last thing posted on that thread--

Taking this all back to the original point of the post: now we know, thanks to Sam's explanatory posts (having once been a national leader of GCx), GCx deliberately chose to deceive the university officials thinking the Bible gave them authority to lie based on their understanding (misunderstanding) of the story of Rahab.  GCx felt that since Rahab lied to save the lives of the Jews then they assumed that lying for the purpose of facilitating evangelism must also be acceptable today.

Improper exegesis of the narratives of the Old Testament, and the inexperience of GCx leadership to realize their error in exegesis, is one of the early problems with GCx.  It seems unlikely that this error has been fixed in the past 30 years based on testimony from others that the same practices of deception by GCx continue to the present.

[calgal]

Therfore the subject title sounds about right to me.

[Linda]

Well, calgal, if anyone ever asks you if there are apostles today, you can reply, "Yes. In fact, I gave a chocolate milkshake to one!"

He, he.

About the Lewis quote, Lone Gone, I put it up several months ago after hearing a GC leader say for the umpteenth time how humble GC leaders are. In my book, as soon as someone claims humility, they demonstrate that they are not humble. As far as I know, no one on this forum has ever made the humility claim.

I went back and read the first post on this thread. My take on what Janet posted was that she was addressing those hurt by the abuses of GC and reminding them through Scripture that God sees and God, in His perfect timing, will intervene.

Then, what followed was a tealish 15 pt-ish type emotionally driven, accusation laden charge against the messenger for picking a title that he didn't like.

Can we agree that some of us like the title, some of us don't, some of us haven't made up our minds yet, some of us don't care, but we might later? Then, can we move on and discuss the practices that led to the posting? Things like control. Deception. Lies. Men placing themselves between God and other people and thinking this is a good thing. Stuff like that.

My wife tends to be overly literalistic in her use of the English language.  If she hears someone say "everyone went to the mall this past Christmas" she protests that not literally every single person went to the mall instead of recognizing the normal usage of the phrase properly means, "a whole bunch of people went to the mall to shop for Christmas."

Similarly, when someone says that GCx was founded on oppression and deception it is overly literalistic to insist that this must mean that the very first convert was deceived by intent.  Silliness.  What the phrase clearly means is that very early in GCx's history they resorted to a highly controlling organizational structure and to lies to build up and maintain the congregations.  This early deception has been well documented by Pile's book and even here on this forum.

Thank you for stating this so clearly.

I would add that foundational doesn't just refer to the founding of something. It also refers to the basis on which something stands. The foundation. In the case of GC, I think most of us would be able to say that not everything GC teaches is bad. (Why is it people assume this?) However, in my opinion, there are two very flawed planks on which the GC movement rests. One is commitment (to the group, for life). The other is obedience (to "elders") in matters that are not spiritual in nature. Put simply, "elders" who lord it over believers. And, these two flaws go way back.

Now, let's get this discussion going. Who thinks it wasn't 15 pt type, but more of a 12 pt. And what about the color? Is it more green...

[AgathaL'Orange]

You all want heads on a platter!  Get healed!!
Sorry Sam!  I couldn't resist.  

Totally joking.  I think people should be free to share, goodness knows I have felt free to share here.

[Neverbeengcm]

This post is helpful for me to understand how the great commission started, who the players are and how much hurt the GC has caused others.  It seems as though some posters want to ignore the hurt, some want to help others to heal and some just want to make posters feel bad about themselves to make them "submit".  This has been very interesting for me.

One thing that stands out to me is that the GC church in Cedar Rapids (actually the New Life church in Marion, Iowa) has been a very problematic and arrogant church.  I pray that the members of that church can find the inner strength to begin to think for themselves. It is amazing that the pastors there so boldly proclaim that God wants us all to give them the ability to make decisions for us by "submitting to their authority". Most of us in the general public would tell them to go away (probably in much stronger words). God did not give them the right to control our thoughts, who our friends are, what we do with our time, and on and on...

The Great Commission system still preys upon college students who are away from home and out into the world for the first time.  There is not a more gullable demographic out there to choose as your victim.  They have 4 years to brainwash these unsuspecting kids into thinking that it is normall to be oppressed because they schedule almost all of the free time these kids have available.  That way they ensure the innocent kids only socialize with other cult kids.  The pastor/leaders of the church are their mentors.  These kids  just leaving home for the first time have a lot of decisions that can be difficult made for them.  That way it is easier to talk the kids into "submiting".  These kids soon learn that if they don't submit, they will lose all of their friends.  They will have no suppport structure because the GC has been providing it for them.

Women are secondary citizens in the church structure.  Only men are allowed to make decisions of importance. Young women are taught that they must "submit" to men. These young women become prey for the men in the cult because the women must also "submit" to their pastor/elders.  The GCx rules are still much the same as those originally set up by Jim Mccotter and crew. Dating is controlled by the social structure controls and the rules these guys have made up.

The more I learn, the more I am concerned for kids going to college. Its hard enough to decide what you are going to do when you are growing into a young adult.  Kids should not have to worry about getting duped into a cult by power hungry zealots who claim to be the Gods who Jesus empowered to run their lives.  

Very sad...