Geoff Botkin (Former GC member from years past): Rap Music Panel fiasco

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[AgathaL'Orange]

You might remember that years ago Geoff Botkin was highly involved in the Great Commission movement.

So a little while ago this happened. 
http://www.thatmom.com/2013/12/03/people-up-in-arms-over-ncfics-views-of-music-miss-their-core-beliefs/

A panel for the National Council for Family Integrated Churches was discussing rap music and how it just simply can't be redeemed for God's purposes.  (yeah.  whatever.)  Anyway, besides the obvious focus on churches and Christians being a part of the proper culture (What culture White?  Protestant?  Country?  Prep?  Christian as they define it?), Geoff said some pretty zealous and hateful things in his portion.  Honestly, it could have been a GC conference.  They NEVER would have trashed rap I don't think, because they want to be seen as cool and relevant, but I could see those kinds of words being poured out on people who disagree, that attitude, it was very familiar.


Well then this happened.  A Christian music artist stood up and said:

http://www.rapzilla.com/rz/features/story/7421-christian-emcees-are-disobedient-cowards

And then Geoff Botkin apologized.  Okay, whatever.  Out of the overflow of the heart a man speaks.  And honestly, if you don't think someone is a disobedient coward, then you probably wouldn't say it.  It just shows that tendency for controlling men to speak in this larger than life, overzealous, commandeering ways.  It's pretty much a turn off. 

https://ncfic.org/blog/posts/worship-of-god-qa-what-about-holy-hip-hop

[Ned_Flanders]

Which one of these guys  in the video is Geoff Botkin?

[AgathaL'Orange]

He is the third from the left (of the seated people).  If you count ALL the people on the stage, he's the fourth from the left.  He's wearing the brown suit.  He speaks more intensely than the others and uses more aggressive speech.

[EverAStudent]

Personally, I detest hip hop...simply hate it.  But I also recognize that if other humans can appreciate it then God, who is the Creator of all things diverse and imaginative, certainly has the capacity to appreciate it when it is done in His name and done to please Him.  So, brother Christians, rap on and play loud...but please, just not within my earshot...thanks.

[Ned_Flanders]

I don't find Botkin's comments any better or worse than the other ones I listened to.  But I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to point out in posting this, Agatha.  Are you saying these guys are being subtly racist, culturalist or elitist by rejecting Christian hip-hop music?  If you're saying the issue is race or culture, I think we need to remember that hip-hop music has nothing to do with race.  Hip-hop is performed by White, Black, Asian and Hispanic artists.  And all of those different ethnicities listen to the music.  In fact, I think it's been shown the biggest audience for hip-hop are young White kids.  

I'm going to guess that these are White men on stage speaking to a White audience.  Nice job, guys- you've only been able to reach one group of people.  What about everyone else?  I'm not super-huge on hip-hop myself but I know that it has replaced rock as the dominant musical canon, like it or not.  And God can most certainly use rap music to reach people these guys seem to have a lot of trouble reaching.  

[Linda]

Ugh. I can hardly listen to this. Are these the same guys who let Phillips get away with the affair for all those years? Was it 10 years? Rap music is the least of their worries. And now I have DCTalks "Some people out there are giving rap a bad name going" through my head.

[araignee19]

This video makes me sad, and angry.

I have to ask; does rap music (or any music genre) need to be "redeemed"?

Let me see if I can explain what I mean.

Music is a beautiful thing. Regardless of the type, or your personal preferences, instruments and voices making sounds that work well together is a beautiful form of art, and it expresses and communicates so many things. Just like a painting of a beautiful landscape, music gives a vivid expression of an idea, place, etc.

Is a painting less beautiful or God honoring because it shows a landscape, instead of a cross? No. There is an intrinsic beauty in that painting, which comes both from the creative abilities of the painter, and from the reflection it gives to God's own creation. Likewise, is a beautiful state capital building any less beautiful than a cathedral simply because it is a state building, and not a church? No, not necessarily. God created us to create, and we bring him honor when we do so. All beauty is God's beauty.

I would argue that music is no less valuable or beautiful if it does not have Christian doctrines in the lyrics. It is just like a painting, book, architecture, flowers in a pot outside the window, or any other piece of art. To say we should not enjoy "secular" music implies to me that you should also give up all of these other "secular" art forms. We should probably start living like monks... But I would also argue that God wants us to find enjoyment in these things, as long as we keep the proper perspective that he is God, they are not. They should turn our attention to him, but they do not have to be "Christian" to do that.

I won't go into the debate about "secular" vs "sacred," and whether that distinction should exist, but this is along those same lines.

Don't get me wrong; I believe music can be damaging. The lyrics can glorify things that are sinful. It can have harmful emotional impacts on a person. But it is not the music itself, or the lack of an overt Christian message, that makes it bad. Music is also a very personal thing, and what might be damaging for one person might not be so for another.

I think very often Christians forget that music is beautiful all on it's own, even without Christian lyrics. I love music. I listen to it a lot. Music was one of the things that really did help me with healing from GCx stuff. It helped me feel less lonely, was something I could focus on, and gave me words to express my thoughts and feelings when I couldn't find my own. It was also something I never let myself enjoy before leaving because it was a "distraction" and not "the best" thing I could be doing. In the end, it has brought me closer to God. Here is an example of what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKTIvQ-XNY0     This is one of the songs I listened to over and over when I was going through the worst of my depression. It became both a prayer I would sing to God and a way to express my own thoughts. The lyrics meant, and still do mean, a lot to me. And the sound expresses my emotions at the time well. But it is not a Christian song.   Or this one, which if anything is anti-Christian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UtxUlpEP0.    It also helped me to heal, and to work through some of the anger. It is a beautiful song; one of my favorites.      Or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5T__lph_4    Which is just a great song musically, even thought the lyrics have pretty much no meaning to me at all. But I can still listen to and enjoy the music for it's own sake, and that helps me to understand God's beauty.

I actually think the vast majority of "Christian" music is terrible (no offense to anyone). It sounds awful, even though it has the good lyrics (well, even that is debatable in my opinion. Many wishy-washy unbiblical lyrics in the Christian music industry). Why is it that the art forms we use to try and honor God are terrible? Shouldn't' they be beautiful? Our best efforts? Reflect his creativity and the gifts he gave us?

Anyway, that is just my two cents on the subject.

[Ned_Flanders]

The more I think of it, the more I realize it doesn't even matter what these men think because while they look at the ouward appearance, God looks at the heart.  God knows what is really going on with these reformed rappers more than these guys ever could. 

[crp87]

This video makes me sad, and angry.

I have to ask; does rap music (or any music genre) need to be "redeemed"?

...

I would argue that music is no less valuable or beautiful if it does not have Christian doctrines in the lyrics. It is just like a painting, book, architecture, flowers in a pot outside the window, or any other piece of art. To say we should not enjoy "secular" music implies to me that you should also give up all of these other "secular" art forms. We should probably start living like monks... But I would also argue that God wants us to find enjoyment in these things, as long as we keep the proper perspective that he is God, they are not. They should turn our attention to him, but they do not have to be "Christian" to do that.

...

I won't go into the debate about "secular" vs "sacred," and whether that distinction should exist, but this is along those same lines.

I completely agree. 100% One of the biggest challenges for me- even with the many of those I was close with during my time at a GCx church- was this issue. I am an artistically inclined person and I was pretty actively discouraged from this because the majority of what I enjoy is "secular"- a completely pointless classification. I remember once saying to someone that I had recently reread The Chronicles of Narnia and the leader who was not even a part of that conversation told me if I was reading anything other than the Bible or a book directly about the Bible I was wasting my time. I was ashamed to even admit what I was reading at the time. My taste in music tends toward more more "secular" bands and artists but I feel creatively, intellectually and spiritually challenged and engaged by the majority of the music I listen to- even songs that do not reflect Christian ideas or values. Thought provoking lyrics and composition help me grow as a person even if it is to show the counterpoint of something that I hold to be true.

And araignee19- Kudos to the Arcade Fire song. It's one I have frequently listened to during my healing.

[MarthaH]

"I had recently reread The Chronicles of Narnia and the leader who was not even a part of that conversation told me if I was reading anything other than the Bible or a book directly about the Bible I was wasting my time."

CRP - I was reflecting on this very thing today. Very rarely did I see true study of theology in GC. My pastor was not well read and looked down upon other people who read. If you told them you were studying works from an author, they would laugh it off. Seminary was often referred to as "Cemetary".

The root issue is that this movement was founded by people who were very critical of the church. In their eyes, the church had failed to convert lost souls and they had to start a new movement with new theology because the theology of the past wasn't working. So, if you were to study things by people who were part of the failed church movements of the past, you posed a danger to the unique teachings of what GC was trying to introduce.

[AgathaL'Orange]

My husband was told not to read books.  He was especially steered away from theology books (he loved at the time to read Calvin, Luther, early church fathers, etc) and told to read the Bible or maybe a biography. 

[Linda]

We were once told during a Wednesday night class that there was no need to go to the local Christian bookstore because all the teaching we needed was available at our church from our pastors.

Like many things we heard, we ignored it because our general thought was, "These men aren't trained in theology so they say odd things, but they do seem to love God and care about the great commission, let's give them a pass." Lesson learned: It doesn't always help people to give them passes.

[EverAStudent]

We were once told during a Wednesday night class that there was no need to go to the local Christian bookstore because all the teaching we needed was available at our church from our pastors.

Like many things we heard, we ignored it because our general thought was, "These men aren't trained in theology so they say odd things, but they do seem to love God and care about the great commission, let's give them a pass." Lesson learned: It doesn't always help people to give them passes.

Yes, sadly GC leadership fully missed the point of 1 Corinthians 1 when they advised us to avoid other church's teachers, especially those of "traditional churches."  Like brain-dead zombies we were instructed to say, "I am of McCotter, I am of Botkin, I am of GC..."