God without Religion

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Captain Bible]

April 12 addition of the Iowa State Daily:

http://issuu.com/iowastatedaily/docs/4.12.11_daily/1

"God calls us to have a relationship with him" (Rock member)

Is that not the point of religion? Why do the GC people hate religion so much? Are they not part of a major Religion? To all the people who practice religion and are seeking to honor their God this article would seem like a slap in the face.

"Group focuses on worship, fellowship, rather than rules" 

Sure it does...  they don't have rules in GC, No not them.

PROPAGANDA!

[Linda]

Interesting article. It reminded me of this:

http://www.religionisalie.com/

One thing GC is good at is equivocation. In this case they apparently define "religion" as meaningless actions to get right with God. That is one sort of definition of religion, I guess. But, if someone asks me what "religion" I am, I assume they are asking about my faith or belief system and I tell them I am a Christian (as opposed to a Buddhist, agnostic, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, etc.) The classic definition of being a Christian carries with it the idea of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I know they use the "Religion is a Lie" slogan to get people's attention, but it is misleading.

We used to have T-shirts that said something like "Believe in God, not religion". My husband had one on once while we were shopping. The clerk at The Gap read the shirt and said, "I totally agree with you. It doesn't matter what religion you are, as long as you believe in God!" I don't think he ever wore that shirt again. Slogans like that are artsy and clever marketing tools, but they are confusing to non-believers.

Captain, you make an excellent point about the rules! I've never been in a group with so many rules, many of them unspoken.

The always accurate wikipedia says:

Most religions have organized behaviors, including clerical hierarchies, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture.

GC has all the underlined. They have quite a few religious practices. They are religious. I would even say they have their own Mecca. It's called Ames, Iowa.

To all the people who practice religion and are seeking to honor their God this article would seem like a slap in the face.

This is another excellent point. What GC forgets about when they talk about the "band of brothers" and "commitment to the group for life" and "not speaking ill of the brothers" is that ALL CHRISTIANS are their brothers and sisters. When they criticize other Christians because they are not in GC, they are, in effect, slapping their brothers and sisters in the face. It is rude and arrogant and disrespectful and wrong to assume that only GC people have the real scoop on how to do church like Paul and Peter.

I really think most GC people are clueless about how inward and offensive they are to fellow non-GC Christians. One of my favorite examples of the cluelessness happened about 5 years ago. My mom was in her mid-80's at the time. Her neighbors went to The Rock. They decided to bake cookies and bring a little flyer around inviting people to The Rock. They gave my mom the cookies (she said they were delicious and it was very kind of them to bring cookies), but then they handed her a flyer that said, "The Rock, It's not your parent's church!" Really! Aside from the fact that the assumption was that "your parent's church" was bad (how offensive is that?), we found it amusing. My mom's mom was born in 1888. They didn't have electric guitars in 1888! Oh, how I wish I could go to my Grandma's church!

[Linda]

The Rock's "Religion is a Lie" site had a link to The Rock. I clicked it and though you might be interested to see what they have under their FAQs.

What doctrines and creeds does The Rock follow?
None. The Rock respects those believers who choose to practice their faith in an organized religion under specific principles; however, we believe that faith can be explored better when free from the constraints of a religious framework. We are an unbound Christian organization. We simply believe what the Bible tells us, no other strings attached.

What is the basis for the teaching at The Rock?
Our beliefs are based solely on the 66 Old and New Testament books of the Bible. It was uniquely, verbally and fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and was written without error in the original manuscripts. It is the supreme and final authority in faith and life in every age. Every teaching you hear at The Rock is founded in this book, the Word of God.

First of all, they do have a doctrine. It is written in the secret teaching called GCLI. You only are able to be entrusted with that teaching when you receive the "tap" on the shoulder from a current elder, inviting you to participate in the rite of passage called GCLI. And you only get that tap if you do lots of things to be seen by men so they "recognize" you so you get the tap.

When a pastor quotes Hebrews 13:17 and says, "And so even to give the controls over to God, that's hard, but the real kicker here is God is saying, "give the controls over to people that I work through, and these people are fallible, these people make mistakes, these people are weak at times. You-outta work through it anyway," that's what God says," he demonstrates that he does not believe that the Bible is the supreme and final authority in faith and life. The pastor is.

Words on web pages can be meaningless and mislead.

[G_Prince]

This is one of the most illogical things I have ever read. Where to begin?

"The Rock, a student branch of Stonebrook Church, believes religion is a lie. But that doesn't mean they don't believe in God."

So are they Unitarians? If you are throwing out all the rules and quiting dogama, scripture, and theology, you are quickly entering the "do what seems best to you club." Believe me, I don't have anything against Unitarians but this picture is hardly what the Rock strikes me as.

"The group meets one Thursday a month at Zeke's, and also meets in small groups more frequently. While the large group meeting is essentially a nontraditional, informal church service, the small group meetings focus on fellowship, communion, teaching and prayer."


Newsflash! Fellowship, communion, teaching and prayer are all major facets of the Christian faith. You can't tell me these are "unreligious" acts. That is just silly.

"We try to model ourselves after Acts 2:42," said Brian Peck, graduate student in electrical and computer engineering and president of The Rock."


Guess what? the Chruch of Acts was...A RELIGION (actually a cult to be more precise).

"The Rock's members believe in simply having a good relationship with God, and any other traditions that stem purely from religion are left aside."

Actually having a relationship with a divinity is the central core of any religion. When people say "religion" they arn't talking about bingo night at the local IHOP.

"Religion often has rules just for rules' sake," said Paul Johnson, ISU alumnus with a bachelor's in computer science and pastor for the large group service. "They're not pushing God, they're pushing religion."

Actually rules are to keep everyone on the same page and engaged with the same ideas. It is impossible to have any meaningful social orginization without rules and guidlines. Plus I don't like characterizing denominational churches as "religion pusher" like they are drug dealers or something. ..."hey man...what you want? I got some rules here that I'd love to hook you up with...and I'm talking some good hard core stuff like LENT!"

"So many times, people start thinking, 'For you, it's wrong. For me, it's OK,'" Johnson said. "If people make the rules, somebody always gets marginalized. I truly believe we need to base it on something other than ourselves."

What does this even mean? "For you it's wrong for me its okay?" That is the very definition of not having a religious system of rules and guidlines. Shouldn't this be their motto if they are so anti-rule?

"The rules we follow are the ones that get us right with God," said Greg Wheelock, another member of The Rock. "God calls us to have a relationship with him. That's what we're about."

hmm...where did you find these rules? Maybe a Bible that was collected, compiled and edited by sucessive religious councils in the 2-4th centuries CE. That book didn't just fall out of the sky in English...there are a lot of "religious" folks that made it nice and easy for you to get your "instructions."

[EverAStudent]

Like so many other postings on this forum, I do not know whether to laugh or to cry.  If those who wrote the advertising had been trained in even the rudimentary things of the Word, they would KNOW that the term doctrine means "teaching."  When they say the Rock has no doctrines are they really saying the Rock has NO teachings?  Fat chance.  Sound doctrine IS sound teaching...same words!

Also, when the Rock says they are not part of a religion, do they not dissociate themselves with Christ?  Did not James explain how Christianity is a pure and undefiled religion when lived out in practice (see James 1:26-27)?  To bash the "religion" of James is to bash Christianity itself, and therefore to bash Christ.

And whoever said that Christianity has "no rules"?  Did not Jesus say if we loved Him we would keep His rules (i.e. commandments)?  Is there not a "Law of Christ" that defines what good and proper conduct is in the body of Christ?  You better believe there are rules.

And yes, even the Rock has rules.  Why else would they demand you "obey the elders" if there were no rules to obey?

Same old deceptive and self-deluded GCx----all lies to all peoples so that some might become servants of the local church leaders.

[G_Prince]

Interesting article. It reminded me of this:


One thing GC is good at is equivocation. In this case they apparently define "religion" as meaningless actions to get right with God. That is one sort of definition of religion, I guess. But, if someone asks me what "religion" I am, I assume they are asking about my faith or belief system and I tell them I am a Christian (as opposed to a Buddhist, agnostic, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, etc.) The classic definition of being a Christian carries with it the idea of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I know they use the "Religion is a Lie" slogan to get people's attention, but it is misleading.

We used to have T-shirts that said something like "Believe in God, not religion". My husband had one on once while we were shopping. The clerk at The Gap read the shirt and said, "I totally agree with you. It doesn't matter what religion you are, as long as you believe in God!" I don't think he ever wore that shirt again. Slogans like that are artsy and clever marketing tools, but they are confusing to non-believers.

Yes this is a good point. The whole thing sounds very "relativist" which is just the opposite of what GCx is all about. Give up your gimick GCx.

Religious filters are inherent. Even athiests and agnostics are influanced by religious modes of thinking. An un-religious Christian? That doesn't make any sense.

[Linda]

Newsflash! Fellowship, communion, teaching and prayer are all major facets of the Christian faith. You can't tell me these are "unreligious" acts.

Ha, ha!

Excellent points, GP.

A reminder of what Acts 2:42 says:

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Apostles. Breaking of bread. Prayer. Me thinks those are religious terms. Especially the apostles part. Just who are the GC apostles in their "model"?

EverAStudent, good post. I think your opening of "I do not know whether to laugh or to cry" sums up my thoughts on both the article and the web page FAQs. How people can be leaders for so long and really not have a basic clue about doctrine is profoundly sad. It also misleads new believers, making it sadder still.

Note to self: Never go to a church where the leaders say, "We are just trying to model ourselves after the church in Acts."

[G_Prince]

I think this is the kind of thing that starts to happen when you have college chruches that are isolated from the diversity of a community church. Weird and often nonsensical ideas begin to circulate unchecked (often encouraged by poorly trained leaders) until the the whole group is thumping their chest and naively spouting some bizzare lingo like "Religion is a lie." Unfortunate? Yes. Suprising? No.  

[Linda]

Agreed, Gene. Also, one thing I noted is that the GC pastors who sat under McCotter and came up to MN from Ames, really did have messed up lives (by their own public admission) and genuinely came to faith and found forgiveness of sins while attending a GC church and sitting at the feet of McCotter. They went from hopelessness to new life in Christ. I understand their wanting to give their life for the Gospel.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the road, giving their life for the sake of the Gospel turned into giving their life to the Great Commission Movement. The devil is tricky. Lack of sound teaching and zeal for the Lord turned into something ugly. So very sad.

[EverAStudent]

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer.

Yes, even that quote made me laugh and cringe.  Apostles' "teaching" = "Greek Noun:didache--teaching, doctrine."  

In other words, in the early church, when their "numbered" members participated in their organized "religion," they sat around devoting themselves to the study of the apostles' doctrines!  

How messed up the GCx brand (or is it a denomination) has become over the years.  

[Huldah]

In this case they apparently define "religion" as meaningless actions to get right with God. That is one sort of definition of religion, I guess.

Back in the late 70's, there was a line of thinking that made the rounds in evangelical circles, popularized by speakers like Josh MacDowell. It went like this:

- Religion is man's attempt to reach God.
- Christianity, by contrast, is God taking the initiative to reach man.
- Therefore, Christianity is not a religion.

To Christians, this has a certain appeal. All the same, there are a couple of potential problems with it:

1) This is not the normal, accepted definition of religion. When we change the meaning of a commonly understood word, we confuse believers and unbelievers alike, especially the latter. The Christian's call is to make the Gospel understandable, not to muddy the waters with novel new definitions.

2) Paul and James both refer to Christianity as a religion (1 Timothy 5:4 (NIV), James 1:26-27 (various translations)).

[G_Prince]

Here is Marriam-Webster definition of "Religion"

(1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance (3) a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
(4) archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness (5) a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

As far as the English language is concerned, I think GCx fits the bill. Perhaps they want to redefine what "religion" means and oppose themselves to this new termonology. If that is the case they need to make it clear just what they mean by "religion."  Otherwise it sounds like they oppose the worship of God, the practice of personal faith, and communal causes and beliefs.

[AgathaL'Orange]

We believe that faith can be explored better when free from the constraints of a religious framework. We are an unbound Christian organization. We simply believe what the Bible tells us, no other strings attached.

This is actually impossible.  Many people claim this to be true, but the minute they read the Bible aloud with several people and make a comment, they have just created a little doctrine.  Do that enough times and you have a lot of doctrine (probably not all that great) and do it on Tuesdays and you have your own bound organization.  Write out a list of guidelines, customs, or suggestions, or a STATEMENT OF FAITH and you just created your own creed and religion.  That's a religion!  In fact you are wrong when you self righteously say you don't have a religion.  Do you get up every morning at a certain time a pray?  Religion!  Do you believe in abstinence?  Faith based religious practice!  Do you call things by certain terms unique to your group?  Religion!  

We are humans.  We have customs.  We are habitual.  We are community oriented.  It's like we are programmed inside for faith and community.  We can't help it.  

So unless, every single meeting time is completely different... some Sundays you stand on your head and make art projects.  Other Mondays you meet but not Sunday and you bark like dogs the Barkology (which you will never bark again).  The only way I see that someone who be safe from having no man made tradition might be to just read scripture together with no comment.  Then I might say you were scripture based exclusively.  But even that has a problem, because who decided what was scripture?  When?  What version are you using?  What language are you speaking in?  The original? 

I've said this ad nauseum that Great Commission AND evangelical groups in general have a tradition.  And people don't really deviate from this tradition.

1.  Pray before meals
2.  Expression of worship.  Kneel sometimes for prayer.  Sing hymns--(unless it's Psalmody or scripture verses) it was written outside of the Bible.  Even it's a chorus that says, "Yes, Lord, yes, Lord, yes yes Lord.  Yes Lord, Yes Lord, Yes Yes Lord.  Yes, Lord, Yes Lord Yes Yes Lord Amen."  
3.  Rites--Take communion from small plastic cups usually passed in a silver circular cup holder.  Communion is usually grape juice or soup crackers... could be a wafer or unleavened communion piece. Baby dedication.  Membership recognition.  Baptism by immersion with a testimony and Baptism chorus with clapping.  Commission of elders or mission teams with laying on of hands.  Marriage.  Funerals.  There is an evangelical death ritual.
4.  Doctrinal promotion--- Sunday school, Bible Studies (doctrine, fill in the blanks)
5.  Symbols--- Cross, dove, at Christmas--- nativities, trumpet emblem, Star, Easter is a tomb with a rock rolled away, palm branches, Flags up front (American and Christian in many mid century era churches), unity candle at weddings
6.  Code of conduct-- First time obedience to parents, spanking as discipline, abstinence till marriage, female submission, no female pastors or elders, women have pretty strictly proscribed roles especially after marriage
7.  Church calendar (when do you celebrate Christmas and Easter?)  When does the board meet?  What day is worship?  When is prayer?


A lot of people have criticized Catholics, Episcopalians and Orthodox for their "traditions", but that's what evangelical churches have too!  And most certainly GC!  When you say, "Let's do this again!  Maybe even every month."  You just created a tradition.

GC is so out of touch with evangelicalism and Christianity as a whole.  It's just so odd.

[AgathaL'Orange]

And don't even get me started on the sermon. GC claims to be scripture based with practical Bible teaching.  "Practical Bible teaching" is code for telling you specific ways to apply the scripture (as interpreted by your GC pastor) to your life. 

While simultaneously lambasting Catholics for having a pope.  GC has many mini popes whose authority is not to be questioned and who are to be obeyed.  Even if it's just filling out a survey man!  The most important thing is, are you obeying your leaders?

I am friends with staunch Catholics and NONE of them have a legalistic code of conduct in the way GC does.  And I think we can agree that Catholics and Orthodox would be considered the most high church groups within Christianity.

Sigh.  Sigh.  Siiiiiiiiiigh.

[Innerlight]

Those poor heathen Lutherans and their pot-lucks....horrible, just horrible!

[Innerlight]

hmm...where did you find these rules? Maybe a Bible that was collected, compiled and edited by sucessive religious councils in the 2-4th centuries CE. That book didn't just fall out of the sky in English...there are a lot of "religious" folks that made it nice and easy for you to get your "instructions."
[/quote]

and I might add, all those big churches (e.g. Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith, Marc Driscoll, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, James MacArthur, John Piper, Leith Anderson, et al...) where you can go and get inspiration for your own "teaching".  Seminary is for losers, we can just listen to highly educated seminary men, and get ideas!!!!  Let them spend their money on website, TV and radio broadcasting, books, articles, support schools and colleges.  None of that for us, we don't beleive in religion!

[LucyB]

Back in the late 70's, there was a line of thinking that made the rounds in evangelical circles, popularized by speakers like Josh MacDowell. It went like this:

- Religion is man's attempt to reach God.
- Christianity, by contrast, is God taking the initiative to reach man.
- Therefore, Christianity is not a religion.

There was a book called, "How to be a Christian without being religious" by Fritz Ridenour. It was very popular in the 70's and has been republished. These ideas don't seem to go away.

[Captain Bible]

About the rock

The Rock is a Revolution in Christian experience. It is designed for “twenty-something” singles and college students who want to develop their spiritual life in nontraditional ways.

It is our goal to live authentic Christian lives according to the timeless truths of the New Testament rather than any denominational creed, liturgy, or tradition.

Music.

Music is the language of the soul. At The Rock we take our music very seriously. God gave us music so that we might praise him. We strive for excellence in our art because we believe it honors him. We hope you’ll like it too.

Beyond Thursday Nights

The Rock is much more than a place to hang out on Thursday nights. During the week, we live out the Christian life together in small groups called Teams. A Team is like a family of 10 to 20 close friends. These teams pray, study, serve, and just hang out and enjoy life together. Find a team to belong to.

A Revolution with Action

We try to not just talk about loving people, but to back the talk up with action. Helping with community events, picking up trash near campus, or serving a friend who needs help moving, we want to show love in action.

But there is one thing we are not ... Religious!