Gossip... or is it the chain of leadership command....

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[sistanchrist]

One of my reoccurring experiences in my GC church was that if there was a conflict between two people, or something was going on in an individuals life and the problem got anywhere near someone in leaderships ears, all of leadership and the church would soon know.  I had many small conflicts with others on minor items of contention that I was in the process of working through and was almost done with when the small group leader would suddenly become involved without me or the other party knowing that they even knew.  One time a pastor got involved without even knowing that anyone outside of the discussion on a hermeneutics question knew what was going on.  I find it humorous/sickening that my GC church stressed prohibitions on gossiping in such a harsh way as at least once a semester there would be a small group teaching on gossip and a church wide teaching on gossip.  Just wanted to throw that one out there and see if anyone had similar experiences to this.

[jehu]

Gossip is when you say something about me I find hard to hear  

[puff of purple smoke]

You've just nailed something that drove me nuts while in GCM.

People in my small group were often rebuked for "talking about leaders behind their backs." That was because leaders were often making major changes to the small group without consulting the group at all before hand. They would just spring these major changes on us (in the same way GC pastors sprung major changes on the church.) Because of this, people in my small group sometimes got annoyed and talked about it. The leaders caught wind of this, and next would come a small group on either obeying your leaders, or a rebuke about "gossip." But, on the other side of the coin...

Small group leaders were free to share intimate details with one another about all the people in their small group, people who should have no business knowing certain things would be told about them. The excuse I was given was that they needed to know about what to "pray about." As soon as I found out that every juicy detail about my life was being "prayed about" by pretty much every leader in the Rock, I told my discipler to not mention details about my personal life to anybody without my permission, and he respected that (I hope.) The problem is, I had to find out that was going on first and then ask. I should have been told before any gossip about me was ever spread. Of course, if leaders do it, it's not gossip.

Leadership in GC was like a little club. You put on the act, you danced the dance long enough, and eventually you were let in. Once in you were suddenly exempt from the Biblical standards on gossip and slander. Even exempt from GC's version of slander (which, according to them, includes listening to the truth about someone, link). Another great example of this hypocrisy was in the area of guy/girl relationships. Our small group leaders were extremely legalistic about guy/girl friendships, going so far as to pass a rule that no guy and girl could be in the same room together without another guy and girl present (this wasn't a high school group, we were in our twenties.) On the other hand, two person guy/girl leadership teams hung out together all the time and nobody seemed to notice the hypocrisy of it. The funny thing is, most of those guy/girl leadership teams have since married or gotten engaged. I guess all those late night two-person prayer sessions finally reached 1 Cor. 7:9 proportions!!!! :lol:

[Left]

I never knew who I could trust.   The small group leaders would assume that people they talked to knew they would be telling the pastor.  We could have gone above and beyond to let them know we didn't want the pastor to know, but it didn't matter.
When I would be talkign to the pastor about other issues, I would bring up an example and he would put me on the spot and make me share details and names.  Sometimes the pastor would bring up or allude to confidential information in leadership meetings and I never felt comfortable hearing it.  It wasn't for him to tell.
Some people would gossip about me alot because I wasn't doing things their way, and when I brought it up to the pastor it was brushed off.  Later on when some offenses had happened between myself and anyone in leadership, where I was not at fault, I was told that I could share/talk about my story, but only lay out the "facts" for others to draw their own conclusion; however, the pastor kept most information completely confidential from others (whereas he wouldn't have if the offenses were not made by "leaders")

[Valley Noir]

The pattern described here-- the small group leaders passing on sensitive information to church leaders-- is a long time practice.  What you folks are describing was happening in GCI in the 80s, and I saw extremely negative results in several cases.  It's more than creepy and unpleasant, it's dangerous and abusive.  In one case, I saw a violation of confidence result in a major meltdown in someone's life, and I don't know if she ever recovered.

If small group leaders are going to discuss the private details of members' lives outside of the group, they should be clear and upfront with the small group on how the GC* discipleship system works from the outset.  It is not unreasonable for someone to believe that sensitive information given to someone as a friend will be maintained in confidence, not passed on to someone in an authority position and used to "form" the individual to GC*'s liking.

That GC* continues to do this is inexcusable.  There are plenty of examples out there of responsible, Christian methods for helping troubled people--for example http://www.stephenministries.org/.  I've talked to mental health professionals who aren't Christians but are very positive about the Stephen Minister approach.

One of the core concepts of Stephen Ministers is confidentiality.  There's a reason for that.

[steelgirl]

You've just nailed something that drove me nuts while in GCM.

People in my small group were often rebuked for "talking about leaders behind their backs." That was because leaders were often making major changes to the small group without consulting the group at all before hand. They would just spring these major changes on us (in the same way GC pastors sprung major changes on the church.) Because of this, people in my small group sometimes got annoyed and talked about it.
Small group leaders were free to share intimate details with one another about all the people in their small group, people who should have no business knowing certain things would be told about them. The excuse I was given was that they needed to know about what to "pray about." As soon as I found out that every juicy detail about my life was being "prayed about" by pretty much every leader in the Rock, I told my discipler to not mention details about my personal life to anybody without my permission, and he respected that (I hope.) The problem is, I had to find out that was going on first and then ask. I should have been told before any gossip about me was ever spread. Of course, if leaders do it, it's not gossip.

Leadership in GC was like a little club. You put on the act, you danced the dance long enough, and eventually you were let in. Once in you were suddenly exempt from the Biblical standards on gossip and slander. Even exempt from GC's version of slander (which, according to them, includes listening to the truth about someone,

Back in 01, the great lifegroup I was in disbanded and and a lot of people moved toOrlando.   The following fall/winter when groups started forming in order to be in a group.  They had to ask you.  If you were percieved as having to many issues or whatever you were not asked.  This was not right.   I was not part of the incrowd just due to a lot of tough stuff I was going through.  The Elders  thought that I should just be part of the accountability group with a discipler  and this other individual because I had too many issues.  Two leaders who really did not know me that well finally asked me, however it was more inconvenient than the one closer to my house would be.  I did not leave because I thought this was all I could have other than my parents church which was too family oriented and boring in worship at the time.  God did want me there, for he allowed me a great ministry opportunity yet I encountered a lot of trials following this opportunity.

[Linda]

The Elders  thought that I should just be part of the accountability group with a discipler  and this other individual because

A "discipler", is this like the "minder" that Tom Cruise and his ilk have? So, what does an discipler do and what is an accountability group vs. a small group?

I think I have heard that "discipler" term used by people from Iowa. I'vd never heard it used in MN (which doesn't mean it wasn't). Does anyone know when and where that term started being thrown around and also does anyone know if they use it in MN GC churches?

[steelgirl]

The Elders  thought that I should just be part of the accountability group with a discipler  and this other individual because

A "discipler", is this like the "minder" that Tom Cruise and his ilk have? So, what does an discipler do and what is an accountability group vs. a small group?

I think I have heard that "discipler" term used by people from Iowa. I'vd never heard it used in MN (which doesn't mean it wasn't). Does anyone know when and where that term started being thrown around and also does anyone know if they use it in MN GC churches?

I guess the mentor/discipler is supposed to try to fix those whose life is more supposedly "unstable" than those anyone else.  They hold contract jobs instead of steady work and another immature leader probably gave that impression to the elders.

[clarinet20]

This was one thing that made me really angry with the GC church I was at in Colorado. There were several times when I had to tell I dont know how many people very personal things in my life and what was going on, yet some how and mysteriously everyone especially the leadership knew about it. I had asked on several occasions to people to please not say anything with out my permission and yet people still did it regardless. They didnt respect me and my wishes at all. It got to the point to where I had to pretty much tell people what they wanted to hear. I never could be my self there in the church whatsoever and I never could  trust anyone in the church. It was like no matter who you told everyone was going to know about it. I was actually told by pne of the pastors wive's that I better start telling everyone in my small group everything about my life and all of my personal and intimate things that are going on in my life because it is going to free up all of what is being bottled up inside of me.

[GodisFaithful]

Clarinet20, I am so sorry about your experience.  That is so bad.  You think you are in a church with wonderful, loving friendships and you spill your guts and it becomes everybody's business.  The church, of all places, should be a place where we can find trusting and loving friendships. 

The "leadership"/small group system in GC churches seems so warped.  If someone is having struggles, they need some TLC.  I can't imagine how awful it would feel to confide in someone and have the personal information spread all over the place.  Just awful.

Makes me wonder what they said about us after they asked us to leave.  Glad I am outa there.  Very unhealthy and abusive.

[EverAStudent]

Clarinet, yes, what they are doing is gossip if not outright slander.  They justify it on a misuse and misinterpretation of James 5:16.

Gossip is spreading truth about someone else, not for the benefit of that other person but for some benefit of your own (including just for fun) or for the benefit of some third party. 

Slander is spreading falsehood about someone else, usually for an ungodly motive. 

GC based their practice of spreading gossip and slander upon their misapprehension of James 5.

James 5:14-16 is at best a murky set of verses to understand, and as such, no doctrine ought to be built on them.  My best interpretation of the passage is reflected in the following editorialized paraphrase:

Is any believer in your local church in immediate danger of dying of an illness?  Then that person must urgently call for the pastors.  They should pray over the ill person and provide him with medicine in the name of the Lord.  Prayer offered by those actually in the faith awakens the sick and the Lord raises that person as much as (to the degree that) the person has committed sins; they will be forgiven so [if you are close to death in illness] confess your [public] sins out loud and pray for each other for healing [from those illnesses which God imposed because you have committed public sins from which you never yet repented].  (paraphrase of James 5:14-16)

The basis for relating James 5 to unrepented public sins is because the only times that illness and death are ever related to sin in the New Testament are:
- when the sin is public (Annanias and Sapphira lied in public, the Corinthians withheld their food from the poor during public ceremonies)
- only when the public sin remained unconfessed did it lead to sickness and death (same examples as above)

Most of the time the New Testament never connects sin with illness, and Jesus even said those who suffer such things (illness, injury, blindness, and death) are no more deserving of such ailments as anyone else.  So, ordinarily illness and sickness are unrelated to a person's own sins, except in extraordinary public situations as in the above two examples (the Corinthians abusing the love feasts and Annanias and Sapphira).

For that reason, I think to encourage people--people who have not sinned in public and who are not close to death in sickness--to confess their secret and private sins to other people is dangerous, manipulative, and bad theology.  Where else in the Bible would you ever find the theology that praying for someone else will result in that other person being forgiven by God?  Does not forgiveness always require the repentance of the sinner? 

Yes, I think what has become known as "accountability" sessions are wrong and can only result in abuse.  In fact, in the New Testament we find that our accountability for our sins and actions are to God alone, not to each other.  We have responsibility to care for each other, but our accountability for doing so is to God alone. 

Sorry, long winded speech when none was asked for.   

[Huldah]

Don't apologize, EAS. There's a lot of good food for thought in that post. Thanks for sharing.

[margaret]

Then, when one of these confessions from a normal sister hits the small group leader, then it hits his life group leader (or whatever the nom du jour was), then the elder....wooooeeeyyyy!  Now you got real action going on.  Now you give everyone a survey to confess their sins, aka smoke this sister out, and get her sins even more well known to the group!

This is where this 'member' put aside the Kool-aid and saw the light.

[jtk1983]

This is the number one reason why I left. Period. Each person on a small group has someone above them that "disciples" them. You were supposed to confess all of your sins and struggles to the person who "disciples" you. Then the person who disciples you would tell their sins and your sins to the person above them until all sins and struggles of every person reached their way up to the small group leader. Leadership meetings consisted basically of what sins each member on the team was committing. I was part of this. If the sins were bad enough, it went to even higher leaders and pastors. The intent of this was so that the leaders could help the person who was struggling. It never went beyond gossip. You could not safely tell anyone anything. Leaders didn't protect anyone. Sacrificing their sheep so that they could feel spiritually better than others. Better off telling people outside of the church that you were struggling. Gossip for the sake of control and learning about other people's sins to make yourself feel better or more spiritual or more connected with Christ is no better than the Pharisees.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

"Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly I will destroy. Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure."

[Hope]

This is a problem in candlewood. Leaders liked to call it the gray area. They would talk and convince others they were in the wrong, and on their convenience would use the gray area to defend themselves. They often repeated sermons year round. It was weird how the pastors wives, pastors family, and leadership didn't listen to the sermons.

[Differentstrokes]

Yes, I have been at the losing end of this quite a few times. I'd tell someone in confidence that I was struggling with a certain issue, only to have it go all the way up the ladder to the "leaders", I'd get pulled aside and chastised for whatever sin they thought I was committing. I stopped telling anyone the truth about what was going on in my life and it became really big issue...

[Hope]

I spent the last year and a half at candlewood trying to determine who I could trust. I didn't hide things but didn't go in depth about things when I knew who I couldn't talk with openly.

[margaret]

Jtk1983, a huge disgusting "ditto" to your entire post.

[GodisFaithful]

Oh my goodness, this string is a can of worms and I think it is still happening, at least in college "ministries".

[Boggs]

This was definitely happening at Cedarcreek in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, as recently as 2010. I know because from 2002-2010 I was a small group member, small group leader, and college church small group leader overseer (my wife and I oversaw about 10 small group leaders). We were encouraged to pass information up the chain to one of the pastors, Rob Gerber, and the information was then used by Rob and disseminated through the leadership team at the college church.

We ended up leaving the church because Rob and Dave Lennander, who's now at Coulee Rock in La Crosse, Wisconsin, distorted definitions of gossip and slander to excommunicate a family member. In my opinion the asymmetrical information access (pastors expect to hear about members, but members dare not speak ill of pastors) is critical to maintain the pastors' power.

I look back at my time in small groups and leadership and really regret that I didn't say "I can't share that with you" when my pastor asked for personal information about someone I knew.