Hershel Martindale...Pelagianism?

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[theresearchpersona]

Even our minds were affected in the fall (though some of the leaders, including HM, did not believe that ). 

For starters I can point-out a lack-of-formal-training example with GC 'pastors' due to this, with Hershel, in regards that statement, by quoting this verse, "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

If Herschel did not believe what TurnLeft said about the mind, it shows his woeful ineptitude with Scripture as a so-called teaching; "heart" is used as "mind" throughout Scripture, though it doesn't conveniently divide into the neat heart vs. mind categories as we use in English (usually ignorantly or thoughtlessly); it just doesn't correspond neatly, by neither does it translate like some mix of the English categories of 'heart' and 'mind'.  Basically "mind" is the closest approximate in English, less accurate due only to the weird way we assign ideas of coldness and sterility to mind, as if passion comes from something other than what upon which our minds dwell. Another translation (quite a loose one as far as I know, but...) puts it,

The human mind is the most deceitful of all things. It is incurable. No one can understand how deceitful it is.

How "Pelagian", if at all, did he seem to you? Any examples? Observations?

[saved]

Not sure about Pelagian... definitely Arminian.

[Rod]

Pelagianism? Rev Martindale is not of Roman Catholic, Reformed nor Protestant affiliation. He is very good friends with a lot of very influential Christian military and civilian circles around the globe, the same as Rev Billy Graham. What next? You are going to slam on Billy Graham? Is it not that you are all disenfranchised from whatever it was you could not conquer in your "christian" circle? The Bible also says "He who is without sin, cast the first stone". I say go smoke your joint in peace if you are no longer a part of what God wants from all of us: OBEDIENCE to bring GLORY TO HIS NAME. "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord".

[MarthaH]

Wow! One toke over the line, Rod!

As for Pelagianism; all that would entail is for one to believe in man's choice in his own salvation rather than God's foreknowledge and specific and effectual calling (oversimplification, I know). I know of at least one person who was asked to read a very Arminian book in the church I was in to get them to change their minds from Calvinism. I don't know who the book was by (I guess I could find out if it is important to anyone), but my friend told me that Herschel recommended it to the pastors to give to him. It wouldn't necessarily be slanderous to call Mr. Martindale an Arminian for sure and it may not be out of the park to call him semi-Pelagian based on what I have heard.

I'm curious as to whether or not he addressed the topic at the Iowa conference he spoke at most recently.

Anyhow, I don't want to take your message personally, Rod. I don't want what God wants from "all of us", if the "all of us" only means Great Commission. Also, obedience as the means to bring God glory is a very Roman Catholic sentiment. You may want to rethink that. You can obey them to whatever extent you wish. I'll be smoking a joint somewhere else while you drink your Kool-Aid...Oh Yeahhh! (I'm teasing you, Rod)

Disclaimer with sarcasm: I hope you don't see this as an attack on Mr. Martindale, especially as there is such a clear connection between him and Mr. Graham. Also, I don't smoke pot, and just because someone leaves Great Commission doesn't mean that they have some agenda or want to live sinful life.

[Linda]

Herschel Martindale is not a Protestant? Really? Why do you say this?

[G_Prince]

What is Pelagianism?

[Linda]

I'm never quite sure what people mean. Sometimes I think they are referring to works righteousness. I think it's viewed as a Calvinist/Arminian thing, but not all Arminians are Pelagians--not even sure Pelagians is a word. In this case, the point was made that Herschel doesn't believe man's mind was affected by the Fall. TRP, do you know where Turn Left got the idea that Herschel taught that man's mind wasn't affected. Was that a quote from a teaching?

I was baffled that Rod said HM wasn't a Protestant. What is he then? It might explain why GC doesn't believe in sola scriptura, but rather sola recognized pastora!

Again, Rod, I'm just curious. The traditional divisions of Christianity are Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, and some say Anglican. Yet you said:

Rev Martindale is not of Roman Catholic, Reformed nor Protestant affiliation.

Please clarify why you don't believe HM is a Protestant and what he would be then.

Or, is GC coming up with a new division called "Never mind historical Christianity we do church just like they did in Acts Christianity".

[LucyB]

Or, is GC coming up with a new division called "Never mind historical Christianity we do church just like they did in Acts Christianity".

I think you nailed it, Linda. I think they make it up as they go along. I asked a couple of questions about theology while I was in GC and got the idea that they don't have much training in historical theological theory.

[Linda]

We had this guy in Maryland several ago, actually a couple people, and they were/disagreed with us in some areas of Calvinism and in my opinion they were ultra-Calvinistic and in their opinion, we were Arminian. I don't think we are, I think we are Calvinists.

I was listening to a talk by Dave Bovenmyer on the gcx site a few weeks ago. It was the one where he introduces the Error Statement to the pastors. During the talk (where he tried to hard not to call us enemies, sometimes he started to say enemies and changes it to critics, so we were "ene-critics",) he said the above.

So, he believes they are Calvinists. I would say I tend to agree with him. However, I listened to a Darling talk (I'll try to find it) from a Pastor's Conference (that is not online anywhere, but I have the CD because it was some of the material I ordered before we left when we were trying to come to grips with what GC believed) and in it I think he suggests they are Arminian.

If HM said that quote about the Fall, that would take him out of the Calvinist camp, wouldn't it? But he would still be considered Protestant, so I don't know what Rod means and I don't know what GC is.

[newcreature]

What is Pelagianism?

Here is a Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagius

Here is a link to Herschel's personal website: http://martindaleministries.com/index.cfm

Here is what he says about mankind's nature in his statement of faith: 

God created man in His own image, and man as he was originally created, was innocent before God. But man chose to sin by disobeying God, and therefore was alienated from his Creator and came under divine condemnation. Thus all human beings are born with a corrupted nature and without spiritual life, and are totally incapable of pleasing God in and of themselves.

[Linda]

The web page and Herschel's statement would be more in line with what I think GC leaders believe as well as many evangelicals.

Terry pointed out that if Rod was correct and HM/GC is not Protestant, that would affect their ability to join the NAE. I am assuming Rod is confused as to what a Protestant is. I am curious about the statement from turn left that started this.

[blonde]

Pelagianism? Rev Martindale is not of Roman Catholic, Reformed nor Protestant affiliation. He is very good friends with a lot of very influential Christian military and civilian circles around the globe, the same as Rev Billy Graham. What next? You are going to slam on Billy Graham? Is it not that you are all disenfranchised from whatever it was you could not conquer in your "christian" circle? The Bible also says "He who is without sin, cast the first stone". I say go smoke your joint in peace if you are no longer a part of what God wants from all of us: OBEDIENCE to bring GLORY TO HIS NAME. "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord".

Some consider Billy Graham a Universalist.  See this MP3, Billy talking about his views with Robert H. Schuller.  I direct you to what Billy says, "They may not even know the name of Christ..."

MP3: http://tinyurl.com/billygrahamsays