History of GC churches in Minneapolis

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[Linda]

I have recently been made aware of a bit of the history of the GC church in Minnesota prior to the founding of Evergreen.

I was surprised to learn that a friend attended the GC church here when Jim Coleman was an elder. I believe she said that the church met at 7 Corners by the U of MN in that building with the painting of Jesus on it (Union Gospel Mission???). She said she will never forget the meeting when the church was divided--split down the middle--current ECC leaders on one side taking half the congregation with them and Jim Coleman on the other.

I didn't have time to get more details. I do remember a talk where Rick Whitney says there had never been a splitting in GC churches though since this story would contradict that comment and am interested in hearing more about this from any reading on this forum who are more familiar with what happened and how the fellowship that was already established here was split by "fresh faces" from Ames.

[Linda]

Also, she gave me the name of the church, but I've forgotten. Maybe it had "Good Shepherd" in it. I'll double check the next time I see her. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

[blonde]

Linda, reach out to Cathie and Ron Max with facts of that break-up.  Jim Frame was there too.  They know what happened.  I hear what it was that Jim Coleman asked people to sell their homes and give the profits to the elders, just like in Acts.  Some members did this and some did not.  The church split. 

[GodisFaithful2]

Let me correct some of the knowledge on the subject of the Minneapolis GC Church named, "Christians".  Church split was caused by a disagreement over the Great Commission and the direction of the church.  Jim Coleman wanted to become more like the other Great Commission movement churches and emphasize that evangelism was one of the most important emphasis for the church, everyone involved in the Gospel.  Don Schoenberg (one of the other elders), did not agree with this and felt like this was out of balance.  The disagreement could not be resolved, so the decision was to present before the church the decision for the leadership to separate.  Each person then was to choose which group they would join.  Most of the church followed Don Schoenberg and about 30 or so went with Jim Coleman.  Those that went with Don Schoenberg decided to continue to meet in the Children's Gospel Mission (the building with the picture facing 35W).  They met in the refurbished basement of the Children's Gospel Mission. 

I believe that the group which followed Jim Coleman reserved rooms at the University of Minnesota for a while, but eventually ended up renting the multi-purpose room at Powderhorn Park.

The group that followed Jim Coleman spent the first fall with ministry at the U of M campus and in the first fall, there were a fair number of new people added to the church.

[GodisFaithful]

I do not recall anyone selling their house for the church here in the Twin Cities.  People in the Twin Cities in those days were early on discouraged from buying homes, most were students and not many married. 

When the teaching about tithing came out it was a shock to my husband and I, because even though we did not have a problem with tithing, we were told that we were required to tithe and if we had a problem with it to talk to our elders.  Wow, I thought giving was between us and the Lord.  The problem that I had with it was that ALL the money was to go into the pocket of our one elder at the time, Jim Coleman.  At the time, the giving was very small (my husband was the one who counted it) but we had the hope that our group would grow.  There was absolutely nothing set up for accountability, a fund for church needs, nothing like that.  It seemed very bizarre to me.  My husband did not like to make waves, but I felt so strongly that there should be accountability that we met with Jim.  He listened.  Then some weeks later, he brought with him a national elder.  We were told by Jim that he should never have met with us alone.  We were wayward in having questions like this.  There was a very stern warning of how we could be put out of the church for this attitude of distrust and questioning of our authorities.  We were soundly silenced and put in our place.  We had been with the movement for years and years and years.  I was dumbfounded.  But this was our church, we were loyal, we could not imagine any other fellowship. 

My husband and I just found this web site and it has been helpful for me to see that I wasn't crazy.  Interesting to see that not everyone swallowed the sudden very, very, very important teaching on tithing.  Somehow the idea that 10 per cent of it was supposed to go to JM, right into his pocket, to do with as he wished, was something I was blind to.  We were supposed to have absolute implicit trust in our elders.  They could do no wrong, they didn't need to learn anything except from each other.  Suggestions or feed back from the minions was not encouraged.  They were on a pedestal. Why didn't we see it sooner?  We were in it for 17 years.  One of the first red flags for me was when Brent Knox taught that the leaders were like Moses, leading the Israelites through the wilderness.  And we had better not grumble!!!!  Remember what happened to Aaron and Miriam? God will judge fiercely.  This type of teaching may have been common in Ames but I had never heard it here.  I knew something was skewed.  I knew that Brent Knox was no Moses and that God was not speakiing directly through him to us.  And I knew that it was not wrong to ask questions.  We were eventually told that we should leave.  It hurt, but it was God leading us out.  We went to a little church that next Sunday and the first hymn was "Great is Thy Faithfulness."  Yes, God has been faithful to our frail family. 

I am learning so much from this web site.  It has been very encouraging and insightful.

[Linda]

Welcome, GodisFaithful. Thanks for your insight. There are still many things that confuse me about the early years.

I knew someone who was in a church that identified themselves as "the Christians". Somehow, they became attached to GC, but I thought that at first, they weren't.  This was the mid-70's. I had no knowledge of GC at the time, so didn't pay much attention.

However, in later years I wondered what was up.

We do know from Larry Pile's writing that Brent Knox and Mark Darling were sent up here in the mid-80's. Was Coleman ousted at that time and replaced by them.

What I find most interesting in all of this is that the idea that Ames elders "sent" elders to Minneapolis to take over a church that already existed debunks the idea of independent local churches and also the idea of raising pastors from within the local congregation.

Also, your comment on grumbling. Sad, and yet amusing. How many of us have heard all those examples?! I would just say to leaders who use OT leadership examples to coerce people into doing whatever they say, in the Old Testament, God spoke through men. To disobey Moses, was to disobey God. Today, God speaks to all believers through the Holy Spirit. Huge difference. Any elder who doesn't know the difference between OT leaders and NT leaders, is not fit to teach on the subject of leadership.

[Linda]

GodisFaithful,

I had missed your mention of being asked to leave. I'm so sorry for that trauma. I am curious as to what you might know about a mass exodus from Evergreen in 1993 or 1994. We began attending in 1995 and heard mention of many families leaving. It was always in the context of they thought Evergreen was too shallow, but something always seemed off in the explanation.

[GodisFaithful]

Hi Linda,

Jim Coleman and Gary Kellogg came up in the early 70’s from Ames as a GC push to mobilize on campuses. Jim was young in the Lord but very enthusiastic.  Gary and wife only stayed a short time and felt they needed to return to Ames for further training.  Jim also contemplated returning, but the people who had joined the group convinced him to stay.  Outreach was at the University of Minnesota with Friday night Bible Studies and Sunday house church meetings.  The group had a number of people from Brethren background and we periodically used a camp they had and attended Brethren conferences in the early years.  Eventually Don Schoenberg joined our church and became an elder; believe he was in his 60s and had strong Brethren background.  Some of us went to a few GC conferences but otherwise we were pretty isolated from national leadership. I do remember Hershel Martindale visiting and speaking a few times.

At some point, multiple elders were named among the “leading men”.   These elders were named too early and they were not ready.  Over time these resigned from leadership after agreeing that they were not spiritually ready.  Jim Coleman and Don Schoenberg were the two elders remaining.

Later, a third elder, a brother from India was appointed to be an elder.  After completing his doctrinal studies, he returned to India.
Sometime after this, a dispute arose between Don and Jim on the emphasis of the gospel.  Jim also wanted to be more involved with GC movement.  Don was not enamored with Jim McCotter.  After much discussion and this disagreement, Jim Coleman sought the advise of Jim McCotter on what to do.  JM  gave the advise to split as peacefully as possible.  After another final discussion between Jim and Don, the decision was made to present the planned separation before the church.  Each person had to make a decision on which group they would join.  Most went with Don, feeling he was more balanced.  About 30 or so joined with Jim Coleman.  The group going with Don Schoneberg named themselves Church of the Savior, and continued to meet in the Children’s Gospel Mission building (building with the picture facing I-35).  The group joining with Jim Coleman kept the name, “Christians” (not The Christians).

The fall after the split, the emphasis was on campus evangelism and ministry.  There was a fair number of new people who joined the group as a result of this campus work. The group met in reserved class rooms at the University of Minnesota.  Friday night Bible Studies, plus Sunday meetings.

After time, the group realized that meeting in classrooms was not ideal for the families with kids and perhaps some other reasons we do not remember.  Sunday meetings later moved to Powderhorn Park in South Minneapolis, during warm weather meeting outside, then eventually moving inside to the multi-purpose room in the park building.

At some point, a second elder was appointed.   Eventually, this second elder resigned due to a sin problem.

Later another “leading” brother was appointed an elder.

After time, the church began to stagnate with attendance about 50 or so.  Jim Coleman and the other elder attended a national leaders conference and sought council from the national leaders.  The advice given was for Jim and the second elder to relocate from Minneapolis to Dover, Delaware so that the national leadership could work with them as needed.  After they relocated, Rick Whitney and Rob Irvine came to Minneapolis for about 6 weeks or so in the transition.  After they left, two of the deacons were put in charge of the church under the watchful eyes of the national church.  Dave Gumlia was one of the national leaders who helped oversee the two deacons.

The church continued under the two deacons for 6 months to a year (don’t clearly remember).  Neither of the two deacons was ready to be recognized as elders. It was obvious that the church needed a seasoned elder instead of being run by deacons with advise given from a distance.  It was at this time that the national leadership asked Brent Knox to move to Minneapolis from Ames to be the new elder of the church.  After Brent had been here for some period of time, it was evident that a second elder would help the church.  The recommendation was to have Mark Darling come from Ames to Minneapolis with the idea that he would become the second elder.

Somewhere about the time Mark Darling came to Minneapolis, the church Sunday meeting moved from Powderhorn Park to Regina High School.  Also, a number of Ames people moved to Minneapolis as they needed to transition from being in the university community to the work world and Minneapolis was a good job market.

After some time of meeting at Regina High School, Brent Knox and Mark Darling visited a Willowcreek Church conference, and became enamored with the seeker church principles used by Willowcreek.  Emphasis was growing the church and winning more people.  Leveraging from the Willowcreek model, the project began to create a new reconstructed church to be called Evergreen.  The strategy was to have the church members call a large number of people who did not have a church and invite them to visit a new type of church.  The Church location changed to Oak Grove school in Bloomington.  The first Sunday of the new Evergreen church had about 300 people in attendance.  Evergreen church, created to be a seeker church, was successfully launched after this meeting.

[Linda]

GodisFaithful,

You mentioned that you were asked to leave. I am interested because we also were asked to leave.

We had attended Evergreen for 10 years, thought a few things were off, but we loved the people, so gave them a "pass". Then, odd top down decisions started happening. Things like an announcement that there would be no high school youth group on Wednesdays and instead there would be a new church for 16 - 25 year olds that met at 9:30 or so on Friday nights. Whoa!!! We wondered who had the brilliant idea of having a separate church for teens AND college aged kids that met late at night and involved no parents. It was called Lux and mercifully it was short lived. However, we did not let our high school children attend and rather took them to a youth group at a different Evergreen location.

Shortly after that, Mark Darling gave a talk at an all church gathering (ECC rented Hosanna church) and he said, among other things that we were his (Mark's) bride and that leaving your local church was equivalent to divorcing your spouse. We had never heard any teaching that was so bold and so "off". We met with a pastor at our location (Bloomington) the next day. That was the beginning of the end. We met with Spencer, Tim, Brent, over many months and for many hours. Our final meeting was with Spencer and Mark Darling.

The final straw which precipitated the final meeting was when Mark Darling taught at an HSLT in Colorado that our daughter attended. He had the high school students make 10 commitments. One of the 10 was to commit to your local church FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE unless your elder sent you somewhere else.

Mark Darling never publicly corrected that teaching although in private he said he didn't mean it.

This is the talk.

http://www.gcxweb.org/Audio/Comm9and10-HSLT-07-24-2005.aspx

Again, it has never been publicly corrected. The message was available on GC web pages until April of 2012. It was removed at that time when John Hopler had been reading posts on this forum and had Brent and Mark contact us via snail mail (7 years after our departure--stay anonymous everyone!!!). The policy seems to be to not issue public corrections of bad teaching, but to remove the teaching.

Anyway, after our last meeting with Mark Darling, he said they would never change and asked that we leave rather than stay and try to change things. So, we left.

[GodisFaithful]

Like I said, the first crack in my thinking was when Brent Knox said he was Moses to us.  I think I had started to have some doubts before that, and maybe that is why it hit me so hard.  I thought it was bizarre and ridiculous.  But we never brought that up for discussion, it just made my doubts more nagging.

We had gotten on board with the idea of a seeker friendly church.  After all, there isn't anything wrong with people being a seeker, I was once a seeker (Or rather, in truth, God sought me out!)  But I was once empty and knew there was something I was missing and then I discovered it was that I needed Christ in my life.  And what is wrong with being friendly and reaching out to the lost?

Evergreen was booming with new people.  At one point we were encouraged to not necessarily bring our Bibles.  After all, that might scare some seekers away.  There were three services of "relevant" teaching and then one that would hit people with the gospel.  But we started to notice that about half the people coming were unbelievers.  And the first area of concern was the youth group.  We were fairly sheltering of our kids.  And we heard there was a youth group meeting where they showed a movie and there were high school couples "making out."  So we started a little youth group meeting in our house once a week for a little while.  The youth leader of the church was the drummer in the band and he was very young in the Lord. 

Mark Darling had met with my husband for a while, mentoring, and then my husband got dropped.  He was supposed to listen to these tapes over and over.  No matter how much you pushed and shoved my husband was not going fit into the mold of Mark Darling.  We could see that he was choosing to meet with guys much more "cool" and moldable.  We were leaders of a small group.  The questions were incredibly superficial, get to know each other kind of stuff. We were starting to feel very depressed about everything.  We didn't "measure up" to this new kind of church.

At some point we just had a BAD feeling about the model of "seeker friendly."  So my husband spent some weeks looking at the book of Acts, and we saw clearly that the model was flawed.  The church, we saw, was a place for believers to be built up.  It's fine to have unbelievers come, but it is not FOR them.  We also saw dangers in the youth group.  So my husband, documenter extroidinaire that he is, wrote up a thesis about things we were concerned about. We honestly thought they would listen and take our concerns seriously. Brent set up a date to talk.  We met with Brent, Ken Johnson and one other elder (not Mark Darling.)  Brent did the talking.  They tried to keep it cordial.  They said that we were on one mountain, they were on another mountain, and a chasm in the middle.  We would never see things the same way.  We were encourage to find a different church.  After 17 years of loyalty, friendship, and hard work, this was stunning to be dismissed so easily.  Thankfully, we did see that it was not Moses telling us to get out, it was God, the Good Shepherd leading us out.  He would never leave us or forsake us, and he hasn't. 

It was very interesting to read about your experience with youth events after we left.  I am so glad that our kids were not involved in that.

Why do you say to stay anonymous? 

We left in 1993.  I was involved for 18 years.  Getting out was painful, and this is the first time that I have been able to talk about it. 

 

[Linda]

Thanks for sharing your story.

You asked why I recommend staying anonymous. The simple answer is that it makes life less complicated and keeps the focus of the discussion on the bad theology, teaching, and practice of Great Commission churches. Hopler has been reading this forum. Instead of realizing that there are some pretty significant flaws in their theology and correcting it (no names needed to admit to and correct bad teaching), he seems to be of the mind that "reconciliation" is necessary. The purpose of this site is to warn people about the error in GC teaching and error is never reconciled. Error needs to be exposed and corrected.

The pattern seems to be to privately contact people on this forum who post by name and attempt to "reconcile" with them, yet never correct the bad teaching publicly. Once contact is made, GC can say, "We tried to reconcile, but they didn't want to reconcile with us."

We were contacted 7 years after we left. Prior to our departure, we had spent the better part of a year and a half (over 40 hours of meetings) trying to nicely explain what was wrong with their theology. Maybe Holper was unaware of that, but to receive a letter 7 years later wanting to talk more was of no value. We told them what was wrong with their theology before we left. They said they would never change and asked us to leave rather than try to change them. End of story. Time to warn others.

I would add, I don't have a personal problem with any GC leader. I care about them. I care about their families. We were very close with several families. I wish them well.

Not all of their teaching is flawed, but there are some pretty significant errors regarding commitment to the church and obedience to their self-appointed elders. People have been hurt. The Gospel is hurt. The Lordship of Christ is diminished when pastors say: "And so even to give the controls over to God, that's hard, but the real kicker here is God is saying, "Give the controls over to people that I work through, and these people are fallible, these people make mistakes, these people are weak at times. You-outta work through it anyway," that's what God says." -Brent Knox

Suggesting that people "give the controls over to the people I (God) work through", and by that he means pastors, is not only unwise, it is NOT Protestant theology.

[GodisFaithful]

Wow, very eye opening.  It seems like you were on more solid footing when you left.  We were floundering around, just trying to find like minded Christians, kind of dazed about what just happened to us. 

On the subject of dating and marriage, after reading here about how controlling the elders can be about that, that did not happen up here in Minneapolis, and I was single for a bunch of those years.  I don't remember one iota of a suggestion that you needed to check it out with an elder and see if he thought you were ready or it was a good match.  That may have happened and may be happening up here after Ames people came, but we had tons of people getting married it was encouraged before Jim left.  The VERY spiritual ones, as I remember, somehow kept it secret until suddenly there was an announcement of engagement and most everyone was shocked.  Kinda hilarious looking back.  But some people spend a lot of time together, whether or not it was called dating, before they decided to get married.  I think it helped that most of the leaders had met and married before getting into the movement. At the time of the split, most of the married couples did not stay with GC.

So I think that when Ames people came, aside from being the switch to seeker friendly, there was also a ton of ideas and controls that we were not used to. I am just shocked by that quote by Brent Knox. You asked about people leaving in the early 90s like us.  It was not a mass movement that I know of.  But I do remember three families who had come up from Ames who left at about the same time.  I saw that quote of Mark Darling about how we were a motley bunch (my paraphrase.) Yeah, pretty much, in some ways.  But I don't think a pastor should ever mock people in his church.  That is mean.  So some people had needs.  That is what the church is made up of, people with needs, quirks, flaws.  We had been without a pastor for a good while for one thing.  But I also think it is mean to pick on how people look and dress and make fun of them.  Would Jesus do that?  Very insensitive and judging and superficial in my opinion.

But in the end, the main thing is that it is good to be out.  I was reading this morning in John, so comforted that "the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out (of the world system?  controlling churches?). When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice."  Very comforting. But if you have been taught to listen to your elders, they speak for God, then it may be hard to hear the still small voice of the Master. 



 

[araignee19]

On the subject of dating and marriage, after reading here about how controlling the elders can be about that, that did not happen up here in Minneapolis, and I was single for a bunch of those years.  I don't remember one iota of a suggestion that you needed to check it out with an elder and see if he thought you were ready or it was a good match. 

You could very likely be correct that it wasn't happening, but one thought; I never saw the direct control much either, but later learned it was mostly because I was a woman, and it was happening behind the scenes more than I could have imagined. The men needed to ask the women out, but before they could do that, they had to "check" with their leaders. Of course, I don't think it was ever phrased exactly this way...

Is it possible there was something similar happening for you in Minneapolis?

[MidnightRider]

[...] 
The VERY spiritual ones, as I remember, somehow kept it secret until suddenly there was an announcement of engagement and most everyone was shocked.  Kinda hilarious looking back. 
[...]

Yup. That happened in Texas, too.

[GodisFaithful]

Checked with my husband about whether there was sort of a policy of checking with the leadership before proceeding with a relationship back in the day, before Ames people came.  He said absolutely not.  Jim Coleman loved it when people got together.  He was a big tease.  I'm thinking that because he was not ever a leader in Ames, was very new when he moved here, and was already married, that that was one thing he missed. 

The other is that we were not worked to death.  I was in nursing school.  I had no pressure to be at stuff except the Fri night Bible Study (which went on for many many hours) and the Sunday meetings.  I would not have been able to handle more than that and make it in nursing school.  My husband graduated at the U of M in a good field that has provided well for our family.  One guy became an orthopedic dr. (bones) and has been in Ethiopia on the mission field for many years.  I don't think there was too much pressure to give up academic ambition in those years, not that it was actually encouraged.

So I am curious about Evergreen now.  Do kids have to get the ok from elders to pursue a relationship?  And is there pressure to downplay the importance of an education, here in Minneapolis?  I realize that to them the highest calling for a guy is to be a leader, become an elder, be involved in the gospel.   

[Linda]

Since I do not attend anymore, I can only speak of the situations I am aware of. My experience was that the Bloomington (main) Evergreen location was not as much into the "swerver" thing (swerver is what they call getting permission from your pastor to "court" someone). Other Evergreen locations teach it boldly.

Here is a link:
http://www.gccweb.org/podcasts/episode-803/swerver.mp3

I am aware of situations where people had to wait a long time to get permission from their pastor to marry. The parents were okay with the marriage, but the pastor felt they should wait and would not marry them till he deemed the time right. So, some pastors have heavy control over the timing of marriages. Others, don't seem to.

You made so many good points in your posts. When I read them I thought, "That's exactly how I feel!"

This just popped out at me:
"The church, we saw, was a place for believers to be built up.  It's fine to have unbelievers come, but it is not FOR them."

Exactly! If you have a group of non-Christians gathered to hear the Gospel, it is a wonderful thing, but it is not the Church.

If you do things like try to make Christ more attractive by how you dress or the music you play, you are way off. There is nothing anyone could possibly do that could make Christ more attractive. Everything becomes a show and the music is not worship, it is a concert. When worship songs are played, the focus should be on the Lord, not on the musicians.

[GodisFaithful]

Well, hopefully we are not boring everybody with this looking at Minneapolis history stuff. 

Thanks, Linda, for all your efforts in posting here.  It's been very helpful and therapeutic. 

I wish we could get together for coffee.  We can't live very far apart.