Hostile Takeovers...

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[theresearchpersona]

Hey guys,

I've read many times over about "hostile takeovers" and some incidences, even, of GC-imposition of new leadership/management where they even sent "support familes" and/or bands and supporters to oust leadership in other churches and drive-out "inconvenient" members, so might we collect those accounts here, in-detail, one-by-one if possible, so that we have the "witnesses" so that if/when GC-attenders come here they can see the evidence that GC isn't practices autonomy or right practices of accountability like it preaches and implies that it does?

[Jason Stauffacher]

Ya, are you meaning that people like Nate, who really work for GCM, act like he is our friend here on this website, but actually has an agenda pro-GCM.  Kind of like a GCM CIA.  A double agent.  We trust people like Nate since he is young and good looking, but at the end of the day, he is working for Short and others doing what they want.  

Unless he says otherwise in this web-forum, I don't trust him.  He was an editor for the Wiki site.

-Jason

P.S.  Persona maybe you could clarify your concern.  I know that many act like double agents in this movement.  They act like your friend, but really they are not.  As, Nate, does he still work for or is on staff for GCM?  That's all he has known, is GCM.

[G_Prince]

Jason,

Just for the record I've been friends with Nate for a while and I can't think of anyone else who is more honest, trustworthy, or sincere. This is coming from me, Gene Prince the original founder of the De-Com blog. I stand behind Nate 100%.

If you can't trust Nate or me then I recommend you be weary of this site. Since I am obviously in league with Nate, it is more than likely that this message board was a scheme hatched long ago in order to draw out ex-members, such as yourself, so as to cause further emotional harassment and damage. Beware! We are watching you! Boooooh!  :twisted:

[theresearchpersona]

As far as further harassment there are people who keep getting it: just read some of Linda's posts.

But I think Jason's post here was uncalled for. What I was interested in was the testimonies that people have posted about having experienced "takeovers" by groups sent to "help" including pastors, bands, and "support families" which split and subjegated Churches not tagging-along with GC-authority, and also when/where these also caused exoduses of the original congregation.

[An ex-GCM pastor]

Trust.  I think Jason was saying that trust is a big issues that has been broken in these forums, and who can trust who.  That is the question.

I had a decent relationship with Mark Darling and Brent Knox, a bit more with  Brent, and the trust was broken in a huge way.  I had a confidence and a belief about God and what he was doing, but what the private words between me and Mark and Brent, whatever they tried to re-cover, and it was all fakery, if you ask me, just to give the idea of reconcilation.  

There is no reconcilation with this movement.  Nate did something for the Wiki board, as I read in other posts, so I guess I am not surprized at Jason's frustration.  It's about making the grade right?  Make it look nice.  At least Nate had the guts to leave, and at least Jason has the guts to speak his mind.

The issue is trust.  GCM broke my trust.  And to recover, is almost impossible, as they still keep doing what they do well, hurt, demand and require.

-Ex

[AgathaL'Orange]

Trust is a big issue with me as well.  That's pretty much why I remain anonymous and to avoid hurting people inside and outside of GCx.

Ex- I really would like to know more of your story if you wish to share it.  You can trust me completely!

Why ARE we so afraid though?  When it gets down to it... they can't hurt me anymore can they?  Although I feel pretty happy and whole, there is still a part of me that is hiding (obviously).  But yet, if someone calls us to ask for support we have a hard time saying, "We're not interested."  We don't support them but we usually use the excuse of not having enough money.  Why is it so hard to say, "We don't approve of your methods anymore."

[theresearchpersona]

Ya, are you meaning that people like Nate, who really work for GCM, act like he is our friend here on this website, but actually has an agenda pro-GCM. Kind of like a GCM CIA. A double agent.

It's this part I'm talking about, I'm sorry about not being clear enough about what I thought was uncalled for. I would not personally be suprised if GC leadership tried to have even more people lie and be underhanded and dirty: I've seen them claiming such things as being part of the NAE when they weren't; slandering the group of people that created this site and claiming it was one; I've heard the many testimonies about how often these men faked and lied and deceived.

I do not trust them either. In that there's much agreement. However as far as accusation of "double agent" go, we need substantiation: explanation. If he were to say "because of this, this, this" then there'd be a reason to listen.

But regarding the thought that there might be double agents: I wouldn't be surprised.

[An ex-GCM pastor]

When Brent Knox sent the letter to Linda's kids, not telling her just writing to them, was a bit issue for me.  It was a huge eye-opener.  I thought I heard all of it at Evergreen and Mark's The Rock, but when the leadership wrote and composed this letter to her family to her kids, that is a huge level of making family against each other, and a deception.  DECEPTION.

Deception.  I wonder why they think sending a letter to Linda's family would do anything.  It just shows how proud this group is, and that they can get away with anything in their mind.

-Ex

[Linda]

I wonder why they think sending a letter to Linda's family would do anything.

This is a good question. Something I also wonder about.

While the letter wasn't specifically written for them (It was a copy of the two page letter they wrote us in response to the letter we sent them when we asked that our names be removed from membership. They included a lengthy copy of a GCLI paper on church government.), I think it was definitely a violation of pastor/member privacy. They wrote us a private letter of rebuke and they sent that letter to others.

Another question that it brings up in my mind is, "Who else got that letter?" It makes me wonder if they sent a copy to many of our friends or the friends of our children.

The obvious motive of the letter was to play their spiritual trump card. We know your parents have left, we think they were "inaccurate", "missed the mark", and "borderline defamed us", we want you to know that the Bible tells you to obey your leaders, therefore, what we think is more important and accurate than what your parents think.

Now, nearly three years after they tried to get between us and our two oldest children and son-in-law, I see that letter as far worse than at the time it was sent. It didn't work, our kids left 4 months later (after listening to a Faithwalkers talk that disturbed them--so in their case, GC was it's own worst enemy!).

We had a close family before we attended our GC church. We have an even closer family now. We are also a wiser family, I think.

I do want to say that I don't know exactly who sent the letter to our kids. All of the Bloomington ECC pastors names were on it. None had physically signed it. I don't know if they all knew it was sent to our children. Also, I choose to believe (having no knowledge) that our friends who are pastors at other ECC locations knew nothing about the letter being sent to our children and hope if they did know, they would have disapproved.

[An ex-GCM pastor]

From my inside connections and what I know, it was Brent Knox who wrote the letter to your family, Linda.  It could not have been Mark Darling, as he does not write so clearly or concisely.  His grammar is horrible.  Read some of his emails!  It was Brent.  Almost guaranteed from what I know.

I'll pray for your family.

-Ex

[Linda]

Mark Darling's name was not on the letter. I obviously can't say whether or not he knew about it and approved, but his name was not on it. Only the Bloomington ECC pastors names were typed on it. None had personally signed it. Since it was a copy of a letter originally sent to us (which, also, no one had personally signed), it is possible that some whose names were on it had no idea that it was sent to our children or even us for that matter.

The names on it were Brent, Spencer, Jeff, Ken, Tim, Bill, and Mike. I would have to say it was one or all of them who thought it was a good idea to try to put a wedge between us and our kids. I have a pretty good idea who was behind it, but since I can't say for sure, don't want to speculate publicly.

At any rate, it didn't work to send it, and I don't spend much time thinking about it. When it comes to mind, it now only serves as a reminder that leaving was the right thing to do.

[MidnightRider]

I wonder why they think sending a letter to Linda's family would do anything.  

Probably somebody read Matthew 10:35 in their morning devotional that day.

[theresearchpersona]

funny...not really, but that you caught that is.

[steelgirl]

Mark Darling's name was not on the letter. I obviously can't say whether or not he knew about it and approved, but his name was not on it. Only the Bloomington ECC pastors names were typed on it. None had personally signed it. Since it was a copy of a letter originally sent to us (which, also, no one had personally signed), it is possible that some whose names were on it had no idea that it was sent to our children or even us for that matter.

The names on it were Brent, Spencer, Jeff, Ken, Tim, Bill, and Mike. I would have to say it was one or all of them who thought it was a good idea to try to put a wedge between us and our kids. I have a pretty good idea who was behind it, but since I can't say for sure, don't want to speculate publicly.

At any rate, it didn't work to send it, and I don't spend much time thinking about it. When it comes to mind, it now only serves as a reminder that leaving was the right thing to do.

When I was in GCM this church seemed like the crem de la crem for some reason.  I recall hearing a friend was not so mature thinking this was a great church.

[AgathaL'Orange]

They were the BEST when I was in GC.  I mean even though it all started in Ames (or whatever), the idea was ECC is the church that really knows how to reach out to young adults.  They are cool, the numbers are growing, they have great music, they had it all in the GC mindset.

[Linda]

Ya, are you meaning that people like Nate, who really work for GCM, act like he is our friend here on this website, but actually has an agenda pro-GCM. Kind of like a GCM CIA. A double agent. We trust people like Nate since he is young and good looking, but at the end of the day, he is working for Short and others doing what they want.

I had a little time and was looking at the Wiki article history page and wanted to point out that while Nate hasn't been posting here, he has been very busy as a watchdog for that site.

Here's the link to the discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Great_Commission_church_movement

I noted in the discussion that Gatorgalen said:

Did Xanthius make clear where to obtain those sources? If so, I missed it, so please point me to that. It is extremely difficult to find most of those old articles, and I have neither the time nor the resources that certain people with certain agendas apparently do.

If GG is reading this, I'm kind of busy, too, and would rather not be chasing down the history of this Movement either. Sometimes you have to take the time to look into things because it's the right thing to do, not the fun or easy thing to do. That's why I have a copy of the article from the November 1978 issue of the Des Moines Register. I got it by going to the Hennepin County, MN Southdale library and ordering the microfiche of the November 26th, 1978 issue of the Des Moines Register. It took about a week to get it.

It doesn't take long to verify the articles from the bigger papers if you want to. I would be happy to send you the copies that I made for you to verify, but then they are copies and probably it would be best for you to see the originals just to verify.

The ordering of that microfiche and reading the article all coincided with my husband's ordering online a copy of McCotter's Leadership book, Martin's Cult-proofing Your Kids book, and Enroth's Churches that Abuse. They all arrived within a two week span in August of 2005. We made our decision in mid-August of 2005.

Here's a little quote from the article:

Part of the taped sermon was based on Proverbs 20:30, which McCotter translates as, "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts."

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

No one as far as I know on the GC board has ever distanced themselves from this man's teachings. In fact, when he showed up at Faithwalkers a few years ago he was welcomed warmly.

Now, maybe the man has changed his views and repented. If that is the case, praise God, but if these men are sincerely trying to correct error, they need to publicly distance themselves from this error. And, every time it comes up they need to keep distancing themselves and correcting rather than attacking the messengers and calling us "detractors".

Oh, and Nate, thanks for keeping up with the Wiki thing behind the scenes.

[theresearchpersona]

What's the leadership book called?

[EverAStudent]

McCotter's Leadership book is called "Leadership: Elders and Apostles."  It is jointly self-published under Jim McCotter and Dennis Clark's names on the cover as the authors, but only Jim McCotter as the author on the title page.  By self-published, I mean that the copyright is held by Great Commission International, Silver Spring, Maryland, 1984, and not by the author (or is it authors?).

How did you obtain a copy of this thing online?  Not via Amazon.com I suspect.

P.S.  Many years ago I wrote a paper that more-or-less takes on McCotter's premises in the book point for point.  My paper is immature in style and format, but the biblical content remains sound (in my opinion, of course): http:// http://thefaithfulword.org/apostlepageone.html

[Linda]

Terry got it at Alibris.com

It was the only copy he's ever seen there, but other used book sources may have it. I picked it up to skim through it a couple weeks ago. It's really poorly written (both in terms of content and writing style).

Thanks for the link to your paper. I look forward to reading it tomorrow.

[puff of purple smoke]

Terry got it at Alibris.com

It was the only copy he's ever seen there, but other used book sources may have it.

Not likely. I've been looking for over a year for that book.