How to raise your children to be robots, oh and better than everyone else!

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[AgathaL'Orange]

http://www.summitview.com/DesktopModules/Podcast/player.aspx?id=1717

This message needs to go in the "Worst of the Worst".

[Rebekah]

Uh, yeah!

The beginning just about made me want to hurl. A 15 month old swallows 2 screws lying on the floor of their church. He dies that day. Young feels so sad for the parents but reminds us that there are worse things than having a child die who's going to heaven.

And what, pray tell, is worse than never getting to see your beloved child grow up? Why, naturally, it's having that child "fall away from the Lord" later in life.

Are you **** me? So, basically, they'd rather we were all dead. It would be easier on their souls.

I've heard another GC pastor say that in some ways it would have been easier if his rebellious teenage son had died while he was still in Christ instead of leaving the faith. That is totally insane and horrible. It's interesting (and telling) that he didn't say he'd have rather died than to see his son fall away. In some ways, I can understand that. But not wishing your son had died before he could rebel.

It just goes to show (along with the rest of Young's message) that they have no effing clue what it means to be a parent.

The other part that really bugged me was the complete misrepresentation of the Day of the Dead celebration that was going on in his son's classroom. "What!? Altars! Conjuring the dead! Those devil-worshipping Mexican Catholics!" (my paraphrase, of course).

[AgathaL'Orange]

It made me very sad to hear him say a lot that his sons "Didn't know any better" when it comes to whether or not they might want to steer their own courses in regards to college and a future life.  He wanted his sons to stay nearby for college and help him plant churches.  And yet, he earlier ridiculed young adults living in their parents basements and with two car loans as completely childlike.  Well, I have to say, at least those people are allowed to make some mistakes and learn from them.  Being told what to do and how to do it is not learning or being self disciplined.  It seems like he wants his children to become him.  Maybe he really doesn't and just speaks in sort of passionate extremes, but that is how he portrayed it.

I'm never going to pretend I have all the answers when it comes to parenting, but I KNOW that can't be right to be the one to decide things for your kids.  If I ever would have heard a sermon like this when I was at GC, I would have left at that time.  I might even have walked out (I did that once at a retreat, it was a turning point for me, although I couldn't even explain why I did at the time).

[randomous]

And what, pray tell, is worse than never getting to see your beloved child grow up? Why, naturally, it's having that child "fall away from the Lord" later in life.

I honestly think you're missing his point here.  For him, of course he'd prefer to see his child grow up.  And I'm certain he would give his own life for him and his relationship with God as well.  What he's talking about is the eternal consequences of that child not following Christ.  He's just placing more value on his child's eternity than his temporal life, and more value on eternal things than the father's personal enjoyment of life with his son.

Which is preferable?  A short life here and eternity with Christ, or a long life here and eternity apart from Christ?  For anyone who believes in an eternal Hell, the answer is easy.  It would be a very selfish love not worth being called love at all that would prefer the latter.  Likewise a short life here and eternity with Christ and many rewards VS. a long life here where one ends up having all their works burnt up and no rewards.  A parent that doesn't want the best for their child is a pretty horrible parent.  All Young is doing is taking a big picture eternal viewpoint.  

Plus in addition to that, even forgetting the rewards issue, Young loves God more than his own son, and if it were his son he would wish that he were in Heaven rather than living a life that glorifies the devil and advances the devil's kingdom rather than God's.  

[Linda]

Again, the either/or situation. Either your child lives a short life, or he falls away from the Lord and goes to Hell. Choose one.

Obviously, to find comfort in the knowledge that your child is with the Lord is a wonderful thing.

However, if you follow Young's thinking to it's natural conclusion, then what you end up with is having someone drink the Kool-aid right after the altar call. After all, you would be doing them a favor by sending them on their way to an eternity with the Lord and that would be a much better thing.

[AgathaL'Orange]

He quoted a grieving father who said it would be worse to have your child fall away "to the world."  A grieving father is trying to make himself feel better, he's grieving!  I've heard the same nutty arguments told to a young mother when her young child was brain damaged severely and couldn't speak.  "Well at least now his eternity is secure!"    This kind of thinking should not the backbone of our thoughts on life, death, and God.  I get it, that some things are worse than death.  I would say maybe a life of torture and being raped daily, a life of murdering people, a life of torturing children, a life as an executioner beheading people.  I would consider those lives worse than death.    But when he goes on in his message, it is clear that he is not referring to those kinds of horrific lives.  


God doesn't ask me to choose between loving Him and loving my children.   I get to love both.  (Thank you, God!)  I understand that he was not saying that we should wish our children dead, but that perhaps "falling away to the world" is worse than dying young before you have a chance.  I think it's a poor choice of an intro to a sermon and just the kind of extremist, alarmist, black and white sermons this group seems to be fond of.

[puff of purple smoke]

The real question to these GC people who would rather have their kids die than become "worldly".. If your children fall away, either from the movement or from God entirely, are you still going to love them like Christ loves them? Or are you going to treat them like the other people who leave the movement? I have a hard time imagining a GC pastor doing any better of a job with their own children, given the way they treat ex-members or anyone critical of them.

[wastedyearsthere]

And in addition -- it leaves God out of the equation.  Remember the prodigal son?  Just because a child becomes "worldly" doesn't mean they won't return to their faith.  Where is the process of life?  

I've known many children who have become "worldly" rebellious (according to GCx) and have eventually returned to follow Christ.  

These teachings remind me of why I left GCx -- every teaching was discouraging and shame producing.  

[calgal]

I would call this 'church think'.  I remember every moral decision, lesson or judgement would require some "leader" to come up with a 'church think' - i.e. the way the followers should think about this subject.  And the way this thinking would take would always be the most extreme.  By taking the most extreme interpretation (along the lines of the verse to forsake your wives, brothers, mothers, heck, I can't remember the verse now - after memorizing so many verses for 10 years I don't even want to look it up! ha.). By taking the most extreme of stances, this shows how 'faithful' you are. They, by stating this 'faithfulness' in public from the pulpit or in small group, or when in a group prayer group, the group then reinforces this as 'favorable behavior'.

The whole memory of this 'church think' makes me want to vomit. Seriously, it makes me sick to my stomach.  It is such a tight, controlling environment where no one thinks for them selves ... and you become numb to the experience to think for yourself, much less be available to listen to God's small still voice ....

My two cents .. or maybe that was a pocket full of change! Ha.

[Rebekah]

Randomous, you're right; I did overlook that aspect of it. But, I think I overlooked it because that wasn't what he was really saying, even though it might have been part of his thinking. He didn't mention hell at all.

Side note: what do they believe about eternal security? It seems odd that, once a child accepts Christ, they'd worry about that child falling away into hell. For surely, 99% of GC kids accept Christ and are baptized before they're old enough to rebel. Do they believe that if someone falls away, they lose their salvation or that they must not have been saved to begin with?

[G_Prince]

 

Randomous, you're right; I did overlook that aspect of it. But, I think I overlooked it because that wasn't what he was really saying, even though it might have been part of his thinking. He didn't mention hell at all.

Side note: what do they believe about eternal security? It seems odd that, once a child accepts Christ, they'd worry about that child falling away into hell. For surely, 99% of GC kids accept Christ and are baptized before they're old enough to rebel. Do they believe that if someone falls away, they lose their salvation or that they must not have been saved to begin with?

Interesting question. I'm pretty sure the teaching on this is that if someone "falls away" their salvation was never genuine in the first place (i.e. by their fruits you will know them). "Works" are the exhibition of your salvation. You have to constantly be doing things in order to prove that you aren't a phony (thanks J.D.).

However, the quote you mentioned from the leader ( "I would rather have my son die while he knew the Lord than fall away"), seems to contradict this viewpoint. It seems that he believes that you can know Christ and then reject him later. Salvation isn't secure? I wonder if GCx has any official stance on this?


Back to Young. What he means by "falling away" really means leaving GCx. Just listen to his sermon. In order to keep his kids saved he has to keep them involved in GCx, plain and simple. Leaving GCx= spiritual disaster.

I've heard lots of "ecumenical" banter coming from GCx about how they are working with other churches...etc. But this kind of talk is just window dressing; it never reaches the core teachings, which remain fundamentally isolationist. If you leave the church you might be leaving God. That is why Young doesn't want his kids to move away. He wants them to stay safely in Salt Lake City and plant GCx churches so that he can monitor their thoughts, decisions and beliefs. Talk about paranoia!  

Parenting in GCx becomes all about the parent. Kid's turn into showpieces which exhibit their parents own Godly character. If a kid was raised "right" they will become a spiritual leader in their church (boy) or submissive homemaker (girl). Anything outside these boundaries begins to reflect negatively on the parent. If a kid "falls away" it certain that the parent is at fault.

"Raising them right" comes down to thinking vs. obeying. GCx kids are taught to obey not to think. Thinking is done for them by their parents...for life! Young isn't going to let his kids out of his sight unless they are moving to another GCx church where leaders he trusts can continue to give them orders. They are robots like Agatha said (this is coming from my personal experience as a Great Commissioned drone child).

I don't claim to know much about parenting...but this seems like the greatest disservice you could possibly do for your kids. "Don't think...obey without questioning" doesn't prepare kids for the big, complicated place life is.  Personally, I've been set back at least ten years due to my upbringing. At 28 I'm just now starting to gain confidence in myself, to not depend on other people to take care of me, to think for myself. I was conditioned to be an adult infant for life, to depend on my parents and leaders to make all the decisions for me. Thank God, no more!  

 

[G_Prince]

Which is preferable?  A short life here and eternity with Christ, or a long life here and eternity apart from Christ?  For anyone who believes in an eternal Hell, the answer is easy.  It would be a very selfish love not worth being called love at all that would prefer the latter.  Likewise a short life here and eternity with Christ and many rewards VS. a long life here where one ends up having all their works burnt up and no rewards.  A parent that doesn't want the best for their child is a pretty horrible parent.  All Young is doing is taking a big picture eternal viewpoint.  

Plus in addition to that, even forgetting the rewards issue, Young loves God more than his own son, and if it were his son he would wish that he were in Heaven rather than living a life that glorifies the devil and advances the devil's kingdom rather than God's.  

Yes, but what Young is talking about is the equivalent of locking your kid in the basement in case a tornado happens to blow by. Sure, no parent wants their kid sucked into a tornado, but that doesn't mean you can't let them play in the back yard. It's a huge overreaction based on fear and misinformation. He is harming his kids much more than helping them (believe me, this is how I was raised).

Basically in Young's sermon, I heard someone who lives a very sheltered and fearful life, having a panic attack about their kid's future. I feel bad for him and his family. It really doesn't have to be that way.            

[everythingchrist]

I believe that GC churches are making "MAKE BELIEVERS" not always "BELIEVERS" and converts to their own opinions, not converts to Christ.  I think we can always "brainwash kids".  God cares about their hearts. They'll have to decide for themselves PERIOD>

[nelliepooh]

I remember reading or hearing a sermon somewhere online from a retreat for leaders about raising a great commission family and the writer said they never let their kids stay the night at a friends home.  Its nuts.  Ill look for the link.

[nelliepooh]

Here is the link: 
http://www.gcnwdads.com/pages/articles.html

[Rebekah]

I remember that too. Yikes! Just scrolling through that list of messages makes me cringe. Anybody read Growing Up Whitney? I bet that's pretty interesting.

[everythingchrist]

I remember reading or hearing a sermon somewhere online from a retreat for leaders about raising a great commission family and the writer said they never let their kids stay the night at a friends home.  Its nuts.  Ill look for the link.

About this sleepover matter, our pastor would let his kids sleepover at some peoples' homes and not others.  He would lie and say they don't allow it at all, but in fact it was happening.  In fact, he lied all the time to fit his needs.

[everythingchrist]

I remember that too. Yikes! Just scrolling through that list of messages makes me cringe. Anybody read Growing Up Whitney? I bet that's pretty interesting.

Anyone who puts their own name, i.e. "Whitney" in the title is ill.  I'll bet his family photo is on the back cover.