I don't know what percentage is love they had for..

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[nateswinton]

"I don't know what percentage is love they had for their old ministry and what percentage is misplaced loyalty or even incorrect theology."

That quote really resounds with myself and my wife.  We've been over this point a dozen times in the last few weeks since we moved on, and we're still laboring over it.  There are SO MANY people that we dearly love from our old church - I think that it would actually be un-ethical of me to attack the church whole-sale, and I'm doing my best to avoid blanket statements (even to myself) and everything as I work through everything that's happened with us.

On the other hand, I'm coming out of several years of being severely mis-managed, under- and over-led, and in some cases being straight-up abused.  In less than 1/10 of those cases do I have any suspicion that there was any bad intentions behind the hurt that myself and my family experienced.  I honestly believe that the pastors of my church meant well, and wanted the best for me and my family.  It just ended up that sometimes they and others were very wrong in estimating "best" for us.

So it ends up just being the points where I'm really tired and worked up about something else that I can even be honest and open about anything, and even admit to myself that I'm frustrated and disappointed and even bitter - those are the only points that I can even talk about this stuff.  All the other times, I think about people in our old GC Church that I love and care about, or I think about the few that I know who really honestly love Jesus and want the best for everyone around them - and I just want to quietly walk away and never look back.

It blows me away to have been working at Apple Computers for just a few weeks now.  The HR manager recognized my talent with people immediately and I've already been promoted to a position where I can fully utilize my giftings.  I'm in a work environment now where people respect and accept one-another, and are always honest and encouraging (and this is totally new to me!).  It's surreal to me now, to realize that I can have a job where I don't get taken advantage of anymore - where my manager is actually a talented people-person, and not just someone assigned to me.  My co-workers are like-minded and likeable.  We've got this "fearless feedback" policy where anyone can "fearlessly" correct anyone else (seriously) if they need to be corrected - and it really works.  I can actually confront my boss if they're wrong on something, and it's totally safe, and they're totally humble and willing to learn.  They ask questions when they don't know something!

It's late, and I'm rambling, I know - I guess I'm just saying that I'm still working through that first statement.  I wish I could just get everything out, but loyalty and respect are keeping me quiet.  Most days I'm just overjoyed with my new job and newfound freedom.  When I'm not feeling overjoyed, I want to give full vent to my anger, disappointment and bitterness.  I guess it'd be cool if you could all pray for me.

thanks.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I have been praying today for you, I just haven't had time till now to post, Nate!  

I think I know what you mean about finding healthy environments outside of GC.  For me, I was involved in GC for 8 years... 8 of my most formative adult years, mind you... most of my college years and the first 8 years of my marriage!  I will never get those years back, and I do have regret for the relationships I could have been building with my family and other people.  Instead, I was building the GC foundation in our city!  

One thing a former GC person and I talked about once was the lack of REAL social skills we found especially among some of the moms in our church.  It was as though they had lost the ability to make friends, be friends, or to even have acquaintances.  It was very strange.  Then there were the strange leader dynamics along with the intense proselytizing and, well, I think I am lucky that I have any friends at all!

Seriously, though, I am lucky that I make friends easily.  My husband doesn't find it as easy to make friends.  He tends to take a long time to develop close friendships and unfortunately the time he spent on relationships there has ended up with us having no lasting friendships from the church anyway!

GC tells you, "You're never going to find friends like us.  The world will chew you up and spit you out.  You're standing shoulder to shoulder with the most amazing people on earth... we're a band of brothers, etc."  I found it to be the opposite.  GC chewed us up and spit us out, and the world has been accepting.  

I'll never forget fighting tears during a very, very difficult painful time in my life.  My son was in desperate need of healing, which never came.  And literally as I was sitting there thinking, "I may not actually make it through this time alive,"  a pastor's wife made a beeline for me.  As she was headed in my direction, I thought... Oh my goodness, God is answering my prayer.  But, no, unfortunately she came over to say only a few words... none even remotely addressing the HUGE problem that she knew I was facing, and instead she said this, "There is a newer couple over there sitting down that came from our sister church.  She needs friends.  Go talk to her."  And that pretty much sums up my GC experience.

Oh, Agatha, we love you, we love you, we love you... now get out there and earn it!

[nateswinton]

It has been a very surreal experience to realize just what you said: the world does generally love and accept me with more grace, enthusiasm, candor and natural sincerity.  

It was the lesbian with the 18-inch rat-tail at my new job that demonstrated TO ME that there is a difference between being tolerant and being accepting.  In conversation it came up that I was a moderately conservative Christian, and she said that she accepted me for who I was, and wouldn't make any assumptions about me, and she was sure that we could be good friends.

Those kind of people are reminding me what Jesus was really like all the time now - He didn't have a core value statement or a 10-step plan or a tract.  Love, acceptance, and grace flowed out of Him naturally.  He wasn't doing it for any reason other than that he really loved and accepted people.  There was no mis-guided zeal there.  The new friends that I'm making are really friends.  They wouldn't be my friends, otherwise.

It was my two friends who hadn't been to church in years that kept calling me these last two months to see how I was doing and just to talk.  They're the ones that really care about me, because they don't get anything out of our friendship but friendship.  No notch in the belt, no step up the social ladder by association - just friendship.

I'm learning that Jesus is much bigger than the Church.

[G_Prince]

Agatha, your story is really heartbreaking. That is just plain wrong...I can't believe it was the pastor's wife of all people. It's crazy that when you needed comfort most they just gave you something to do. And they wonder why people leave!

It's funny that it's those we are told are hurting most are often some of the nicest most unassuming people we could meet. Just like Nate was saying, the real world is actually pretty nice compared to a lot of GCM.

I have a good friend who used to attend a GCM church. A few years ago one of her best friends committed suicide, and instead of comfort and sympathy she was met with blank silence from her church friends and leaders. The only thing anyone would say was that her friend was messed up and had committed a huge sin by killing herself. No hugs...just blame. needless to say that incident turned her atheist.

I don't think everyone in GCM is like this. I still have good friends who attend, but our relationship has never been based around church. Instead it is the SUPER committed people who seem to struggle with the concept of friendship.

[maranatha]

"It's funny that it's those we are told are hurting most are often some of the nicest most unassuming people we could meet. "

Good point, G_Prince.  Reminds me where  I read where the seminary student had an assignment to go to an AA meeting.

..."There were stark contrasts between the nature of the AA meeting and the nature of his church. The attendees at the AA meeting were more reflective and descriptive of their needs, aware of their struggles and openly honest about their emotional and mental situation, than were the members of his church."
"Discouragingly, he understood that if his church friends did not realize and articulate their struggles, then they, regardless of how much Scripture and doctrine they understood, would be unable to realize and articulate Christ to themselves or others. The capture of our struggles and shame leads to the capture of Christ and our true selves. This is the essential story of the broken believer who rightly conceives of his brokenness. My friend continues to attend the AA meetings, not because he is an alcoholic but because of his desire to participate in uninhibited, pure and honest fellowship."

http://www.theresurgence.com/michael_mewborn_2007_6s_and_7s