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August 18, 2018, 12:37:19 pm *
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Author Topic: I don't understand this website  (Read 9957 times)
Rypick
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« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2018, 06:37:38 am »

 Ryan, Your line "Don't take these issues to secular courts....etc.

    You're requesting ECC and the shadow board of trustees do the same concerning the current investigation, correct???


This discussion is about the usefulness of this forum for emotional healing after being hurt by a church. It doesn't necessarily relate directly to the current investigation.
But, to play along... yes, I would request that ECC and the dark forces of their BOT not go on Facebook to call out Suzanne for making up her allegations, if that is what the investigation finds.

     We're talking about this forum not facebook, and secular courts. You implied this forum is a secular court.  But you are okay with ECC and the shadow BOT using a secular lawyer rather than a faith based organization.  That doesn't count.  Got it.

This is still off topic. However, hiring a secular lawyer to perform an investigation is not the same as taking a case to a secular court. Also, are you certain that the investigator is not a believer, or are you just making an assumption?

By the way, thanks for changing "Gotcha" to "Got it" at the end. That is more clear. I was a little offended the first time I read your response, but now I know what you were meaning to say.  Smiley
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Huldah
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« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2018, 12:10:35 pm »

I was so often told "unity is more important than truth" while attending GCx, or some various variation of that. I now wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment.

I disagree with that as well. I've never heard anything remotely like that, or I would probably be an ex GCer too. Is there any context that might lend understanding to what was meant by those comments?

I'm one of the two the resident dinosaurs on this forum, the other being PVitartas. We both go back to immediate post-Blitz days in the movement. I still have one of my old notebooks from Solid Rock days. Maybe some of those notes can shed a bit of historical light on the "unity trumps truth" idea. Please keep in mind that these are only notes, not transcripts. They're pretty thorough notes, but I can't vouch for their being 100% complete and accurate.

Quote from: My Sermon Notes - October 24, 1977 - Teaching by Dennis Clark
Notice Jonathan's love for David. 1 Peter 4:18. This is more important than understanding any doctrine. 1 Timothy 1:5.

I don't know how Dennis defined "doctrine." If we take it to mean something along the lines of "an accurate understanding of the truths of Scripture," then you can see the problem with this teaching. It's a variation of "unity trumps truth"; same idea, different terminology.

Notice how the cited verses have been misused.

1 Peter 4:18. "Above all, maintain constant love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins." Nothing here about doctrine being less important than love.

1 Timothy 1:5. "As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith." (vs. 3-5) Far from saying that doctrine is less important, the context is that sound doctrine acts as a safeguard to love, by preventing divisive speculation.

Quote from: My Sermon Notes - December 31, 1977 - Teaching by Herschel Martindale
No Christian should allow herself to say, think, or do anything that would damage the unity of the spiritual family."

The context here was the local church as a spiritual family, with the elders as implied spiritual parents. Notice that we weren't even supposed to think anything that would detract from group cohesion. They didn't say, "Don't fall for lies that damage our unity," but, "Don't even think anything that would damage our unity."

Based on my general memories of that time, I can assure you that "unity trumps truth" meant exactly what it sounds like: unquestioning loyalty to the group and especially its leadership, for life, without regard to whether or not the teachings and practices were correct. The elders might be wrong on occasion (although that was unlikely), but you were better off going along with them even if they did turn out to be wrong. As I recall, and my notes confirm, there was more preaching against damaging the unity of the church than there was against sins like lying, sexual immorality, stealing, and misusing the word of God combined.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2018, 01:10:00 pm »

Huldah, sad but true.  In Maryland it seemed to be a very prominent theme.  Never think anything negative about a GCx leader or the church - that would be demonic influence.  Certainly, never say anything negative or question a leader or the church, that would be rebellion.  Definitely, never do anything contrary to its teachings, such as and especially the consideration of leaving it, would be hatred toward God, and akin to leaving the faith; and possibly eternal damnation.

There is something I recalled recently that illustrates the mind-control of these teachings in my life.  It is embarrassing to share, but it makes the point of the power of the false teaching of GCx in my very soul.  When I had been particularly unhappy there I began reciting the "loyal" words. "I'LL never leave this church, I'll NEVER leave this church, I'll never LEAVE this church" like a "zombied" mantra to will myself to do something the better part of me wanted to escape.

So, if you have found it psychologically difficult to separate from your toxic church, it may be because lies about Christian loyalty and unity have been planted so deep and for so long that their roots have now entangled around much of your life.  But, they can be beautifully cut off.  I can testify.

Ask God to reveal to you his PERSONAL WILL for your life now.  It's not about your church's will and plans for your life.  It's about HIS.  

« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 06:43:20 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
GodisFaithful
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« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2018, 02:05:11 pm »

I am a DINO too, Huldah.  Boy do I feel old. 

Started out in 1974 in a small "work" by someone from Ames in what was probably an off shoot of the Blitz. I knew nothing of the conflicts and excommunications of the early days until coming  here.  It was truly eye opening.

I took copious notes of teachings over our 18 years but pitched them out long ago.  I am impressed that you have an archive. 

I do not remember the exact words "unity trumps truth" but I remember the vibe of it.  Dennis and Jim, like salt and pepper, regarded as Super Stars for what they started, and I was pretty much Star Struck.  Went to a Christmas conference in, I think, Boulder, CO and slept on the floors of a church.  That was when I was in college. We did not expect to know the whys of decisions made by leaders in the movement, we were there to follow and obey and revere.

I did not find this forum site until years after our family was told to find a different church simply because we expressed some concerns. The forum has helped me process the whole experience, see the aberrant teaching, see the twisting of Scriptures, see and feel for people who were damaged far worse than what I experienced.



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Huldah
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« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2018, 02:31:36 pm »

GodisFaithful, it's great to find another dinosaur here! Ahhh, those wonderful old days when we roamed the primeval jungles with all the other young starry-eyed dinos...

I don't actually have an archive, just an old spiral bound notebook. It's all that survives of my Solid Rock days, except perhaps a few personal letters that may or may not still be around here in a box somewhere.

Eighteen years of service and then they asked you to leave. That's sad. Not that I'm not glad you're out, but still, that had to hurt.
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2018, 03:23:35 pm »

Ha ha, Huldah, you make me laugh!!!  Cheesy I was a baby dino, just cutting my teeth.  Pretty timid. Now hear me roar! Grin Grin Grin Kidding.

It would be awfully fun to have a dino reunion.  We could hand out a few tickets giving entry into J. Park (where it must be held) admitting those who are really curious about what it was like back then in the pre-historic GC era. Or to those who wish to add their theories and postulate about the morphology over the eons and up to the present age. We could have rousing discussions about whether the DNA has changed, and if so, whether there are any missing links. After all, it wouldn't be that much fun if there were only three of us!  Maybe there are other dinos lurking...

Go ahead, tell me I am taking this too far...
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Huldah
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« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2018, 03:43:41 pm »

Well, if they decide to do that, we'll have to make sure Jim McCotter gets an invite.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2018, 04:00:13 pm »

Hey did you two cute little velociraptors meet Jim Mcotter?
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Huldah
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« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2018, 04:16:47 pm »

Speaking just for myself, unfortunately, no. I never had the pleasure.  Wink
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:20:41 pm by Huldah » Logged
Huldah
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« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2018, 04:19:39 pm »

Oh, and I really need to add:

We could have rousing discussions about whether the DNA has changed...

I love this idea!
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2018, 04:23:09 pm »

LOL

Not so sure about the cute part...

Did I meet Jim McCotter?

Yes, I mean maybe not "Hello, I am so and so nice to meet you..." but heard him preach in Ames and at that CO conference and went with a bus load of "saints" to the March on DC or whatever that was called. Dennis and Jim were there. When our "work" was fixin' to have a church split we went with our "elder" to some place or other (a camp?) while Jim and our elder were pacing pacing pacing while our "elder" was asking him what to do.  Jim wanted a peaceable split.  Too many people to excommunicate I suppose and he had bigger battles to fight, I presume.  So we had a painful split where most of the church split off from GC and McCotter. One of our "elders" was a dear older man who did not hide his dislike for Jim McCotter.  But my husband and I were loyal soldiers...

Jim had an aura about him...

Yep, feeling kinda ancient right about now.  Doesn't seem like all that long ago...



 
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Differentstrokes
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« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2018, 04:31:12 pm »

I actually met jim mcotter at my parents church just a couple years ago lol
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2018, 04:49:44 pm »

Wow.  Was he speaking, Different Strokes?  Tell us about it! After all, perhaps this will help people understand this website, so we are actually probably sticking to the purpose of this thread!
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2018, 05:02:31 pm »

Was that in Englewood, Colorado?

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For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
GodisFaithful
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« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2018, 05:30:56 pm »

Huldah, you said it must have hurt after 18 years with the "movement."

I was just adding it up and it was actually 20 years.  But I got involved before my husband. 

I don't remember feeling hurt.  Numb maybe. If I remember right, there were three pastors at the house where we were asked to come to share our concerns.  We had written our concerns out ahead because that is what they asked. Quite obviously they had decided ahead of time that they would tell us to find a different church, that we would never see eye to eye with them.

I remember leaving there stunned, but intact.  We needed to be strong for our kids.  All their friends...  I believe we finished out a month or so with our small group, because my husband is a finisher.  Both of us had this sense that by the pastors telling us this, it was actually God leading us out, which gave us some comfort.

Rather than hurt, I would say traumatic.  The first Sunday we visited a different church we had to troop down to the front row, and they started singing Great is Thy Faithfulness.  It spoke to me. Reassured me. Thus  my name on this forum. And it has been true. "In every change He faithful will remain."
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Differentstrokes
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« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2018, 05:35:53 pm »

Godusfaithful, he wasn't speaking, but was visiting GC churches all over for some reason? It was weird, my dad was friends with him back in the day, so they were talking and introduced us.
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Rypick
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« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2018, 07:38:03 am »

I keep seeing “false doctrine taught by GC churches” as a reason for this forum, and a desire to warn others about these heresies as a reason for some people to continue to post (I remember Linda specifically saying this).

Linda (or anyone else), can you list for me the heresies that are taught by GC? Alternatively, can you point me to a thread where these are already listed out? I honestly want to know what doctrinal teachings are aberrant at GC. I’m raising a family in this movement and am concerned about leading them in truth. I’ve never heard heretical teachings, but maybe they’ve just gone over my head?

I’m not looking for more to argue about, I sincerely want to know. As a matter of fact, if you want, feel free to email them to me, instead of listing them here. My email address is visible. It is a current email address of mine, but is not an email address I check often. So, if you decide to email me, please post a reply on here to let me know that you sent me an email. Thanks.

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margaret
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« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2018, 07:45:47 am »

Why don’t you simply peruse the forum, Ryan? It’s all on here.
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Rypick
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« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2018, 08:17:10 am »

I was hoping for a list, or some other concise form. Like I said, I'm raising a family. I don't really have time to read through years and years of posts. I guess I assumed if warning against these heresies was heavy on someone's heart that they would be able to fairly easily list them out.
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Linda
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« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2018, 08:22:56 am »

Ryan,

Yikes, I've spent the last 25 minutes coming up with links for you, but honestly, I would recommend that you take a bit of time to understand what your church believes and the shepherding movement you have your family involved in and not be dependent on others to do your work for you

As margaret mentioned, there are a number of threads here that discuss bad teaching that needs to be corrected.

Here are a few links. Also, learn about the "shepherding movement". Try Googling it, but maybe you don't have time. GCC churches are shepherding churches.

An overview would be my husband's original blog post.

http://tmdugan.blogspot.com/2006/06/church-what-is-essential-mere-church.html

Here are some threads on the forum that discuss bad teaching and practice. (I apologize for my crazy use of colors and underlining, and bold type.)

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/bad-teaching-that-should-be-corrected/

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/the-worst-of-the-worst-serious-error/

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/is-gc-'orthodox-protestant'/

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