I found this today at No Longer Quivering

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[AgathaL'Orange]

This is interesting.  Defendant Rising, are you here?



http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/09/01/justice-is-no-lady-chapter-1-twisted-communion/

[Linda]

Reading this and the comments after it made me overwhelmingly sad. I'm glad you posted it though. One day, an account will be given for all the lives destroyed by "shepherds" and am so thankful that God opened our eyes to see all the things we had overlooked.

[newcreature]

I found something at the Time Magazine website that made me very angry and very sad.

** BE FOREWARNED ** It is real; it is graphic; and it is repulsive.

Time published this a few weeks ago. It is the cover picture and cover story of a young woman's brutal fate at the hands of devout Muslims.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007238,00.html

I am not worried about a handful of white baby-boomers and their children. Ultimately, they are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ; they are not a threat to my life or my freedom or my relationship with Christ, even if I no longer buy into their GC-XYZ brand of discipleship and discipline.

I am more worried about 2 billion Muslims who reject Christ. They are spawning monsters who perpetrate the cruelest atrocities in the name of their "God" as they reach the world with their "gospel" and continue building their victory mosques.

[Linda]

newcreature,

False teaching is false teaching no matter who teaches it. Sometimes false teaching is very obvious and inflicts permanent and physical damage to the victim, as you just pointed out. In shepherding groups, the damage done is more subtle--a flawed view of God, broken relationships, broken families and marriages. )In one of your early posts, you mentioned that you had "crashed and burned" from your GC experience.) All false teaching needs to be pointed out and corrected, no matter who says it.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Yes, that Time article was sad.  Very horrible.  One of the things I have been talking about with my counselor as I have been processing the years with GC and how crippled and almost stunted I feel because of them is that it's okay and even good to be upset and acknowledge the damage that GC inflicts.  Comparing the gravity of injustices (I shouldn't feel bad because it's not like they hit me, raped me, stole from me, etc) isn't helpful to healing and continues the lies.  The truth for me is that I was discipled (I had no idea I was, btw) and "became" my disciplers.  I chose things not because I wanted them, but because that was what was expected.  I was unable to see it any other way.  The culture was controlled.  The information was controlled.  I was a perfect sincere candidate because of my upbringing and former church culture.  I am thankful that I did get out, but you see I never got to be an adult on my own.  I was looking for a controlling "parent" and GC was looking for followers.  My husband and I became their little children.

Career choices, marriage, children, LIFE are not small matters.  GC provided a "soft" Taliban for people.  I have come to regret my years there very much.

[newcreature]

Yes, Linda, I did say I had crashed and burned; I also concluded that post with this:

"I never responded to all the warning flags at GC until the damage was done in my life. Ultimately, I am responsible for listening to error. I had the Holy Spirit to lead and to guide me, but I let men lead me instead. I am not minimizing the effect of the error preached at GC -- it is tragic to read so many of the stories in here -- but take heart, Jesus is still the Truth, and He will set us free."

And yes, Agatha, false teaching is false teaching (see my quote above about error at GC). Jesus said to "Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees" and Paul said "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." So whether it's misguided zeal without knowledge, or error in teaching, or egotism, or control freaks, or outright malicious sin... it's all damaging to one degree or another.

After my crash, I also got professional counseling. And after I found a new church and felt safe there, I poured out my heart to my pastor. He literally cried for me after hearing my whole story. I eventually began getting my eyes off myself and my problems and my past, and I began "fixing my eyes upon Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of my faith." (Heb. 12:2) I discovered it was quite easy and quite natural to compare my past and my problems with others and then conclude that I had it worse than they. Well, God followed up by saying: "For consider Him who endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin." (Heb. 12:3-4)

God gave me the mind and the Spirit of Christ; and in regards to GC-XYZ, He posted many warning signs and red flags for me along the way. I was afraid of rejection and I was afraid of what others (especially my wife and deacons and elders and apostles) would think if I left. I would also end up "eating crow" in front of my unbelieving family and friends if I agreed with their "cult" assessment. So I gave into my fears and my pride instead of heeding God's voice gently speaking in my soul. It took me a long time to learn that God's perfect love casts out fear. He really did give me the Holy Spirit, not a spirit of fear. I am still forgetting and relearning those lessons, mere mortal that I am. And much to my dismay, I still give into fear or selfishness at times. But much to my delight, His consolations delight my soul nowadays.

I found this website quite by accident last May, and I have only visited and posted occasionally. I doubt that I will visit or post much more (except to respond to any questions or comments you may have regarding this post). It just struck me this week that I was falling back into my "victim mentality" after reading (and writing) negative posts and reactions against fellow believers. Obviously I don't agree with some of the GCI doctrine, or lack thereof. Nor do I agree with some of the behavior, nor some of the Christians at GCI. However, it is not my in my heart to monitor GCI and focus on their problems, big or small. Philippians 4:8 has served me well when I focus on that instead.

I certainly hope I become more fixated on Christ in my old age, because all the past and present heartaches, and all the physical aches and pains, and all the sagging and bagging can be pretty depressing if I focus on those things (as well as Muslim terrorists, or worldwide heresy taught by the Pope and his sychophants, or politicians and their budget-busting policies, etc, etc, etc.). Thankfully there is peace of heart and mind when looking to Jesus. And thankfully, we will get to walk by sight someday soon, and then we will fellowship forever together with Him... and we won't be anonymous anymore!

Take care and may God continue to richly bless you.

[Linda]

newcreature, I am sorry for all the pain you experienced. I don't view you or anyone else here as victims. I agree, we are all responsible for our own decisions.

One of the reasons I post here, on GCM warning, is to warn others. I don't for a minute believe that everyone who leaves a GC church is supposed to comment here. I do believe that God has given me a unique perspective and some insight that I wish I had known and want to share with others who may need it.

When you ask questions, in good faith believe the pastor is telling the truth, and then find out the person you trusted for an answer held back some significant information, it is rather disturbing. I post here so that people may see the other side of the story. It is not my job to judge GC, but I do feel a responsibility to parents whose children have been drawn into GC in college and wish them to have the full story.

God bless you.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Whoa!  In this next installment she says a GC pastor said corporal punishment of wives was permissable!  http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/09/27/justice-is-no-lady-chapter-2-first-prison-break

[Linda]

Oh, my, Agatha. Does anyone know what church she is referring to? Did anyone reading this attend this conference? Sounds like it was in the 90's. Does anyone have any tapes or written material that were distributed at this conference?

To add to my anxiety, Nate had become more tyrannical. We had attended a Great Commission conference in which a pastor from West Virginia advocated using physical force on disobedient wives. If a wife flatly refused to obey her husband, this man taught, her husband could “lovingly compel obedience” using physical force.

When I was eight months pregnant with Jack, Nate ordered me to pick a paperwad up off the living room floor. I refused, and he took me by the forearm and “lovingly compelled” me to pick up the paperwad, while murmuring sweetly in my ear, “I’m sorry, sweetheart, but you need to learn obedience.

”

[blonde]

Is kind of treatment towards women in GCx does not surprise me at all.  I am so glad we got out.

[Huldah (not logged in)]

I also read this at NLQ. Is anyone else aware of any sermons such as this at any GC church?

During my time at Columbus, I never heard anything remotely like this, though that's not to say it didn't happen elsewhere. Is it possible that the writer is confusing some other "Great Commission" church with the same organization we belonged to? After all, it's hardly a unique or original name. Granted, it was at the Columbus church that I first heard of homeschooling and "letting God decide how many children" to have, but never ever did I hear it was all right to "lovingly compel" a wife to obey.

Please don't think I'm trying to challenge DefendantRising's story. I'm simply hoping there's some mistake. It would be very sad to learn that any of the elders ever stooped to advocating wife beating, on top of everything else that happened there.

[MarthaH]

It might be wise to do some more research. The Quiverfull movement is a philosophy that emphasizes childbearing as a way to move the Kingdom forward. It is not rooted in the Great Commission movement. However, there is language that has been introduced in Great Commission that either borrows from this movement or that is similar in its philosophy and has been taught at GCLI (Great Commission Leadership Institute).

The quote from No Longer Quivering was: To add to my anxiety, Nate had become more tyrannical. We had attended a Great Commission conference in which a pastor from West Virginia advocated using physical force on disobedient wives. If a wife flatly refused to obey her husband, this man taught, her husband could “lovingly compel obedience” using physical force.

I should point out that based on the post, a Great Commission conference does not necessarily mean a conference sponsored by GCC. Many movements have conferences on the Great Commission. A title like that should not be unexpected within a movement such as Quiverfull. Also, a pastor from West Virginia does not mean a Great Commision pastor from West Virginia. It could mean a pastor who spoke at a conference on the Great Commission from West Virginia.

If someone can find out more details it would be helpful.

That being said, I have heard several sermons in GC where large families are promoted. Not necessarily a bad thing, but there is a lack of balance (at least in the church I attended). The pastor quoted Proverbs (I think) where it refers to children as being arrows in a quiver. He smirked and said, "the last time I checked, the minimum amount of arrows in a quiver was 5".

John Piper was quoted on the Wikipedia reference to the Quiverfull movement and shared this, "just because something is a gift from the Lord does not mean that it is wrong to be a steward of when or whether you will come into possession of it. It is wrong to reason that since A is good and a gift from the Lord, then we must pursue as much of A as possible. God has made this a world in which tradeoffs have to be made and we cannot do everything to the fullest extent. For kingdom purposes, it might be wise not to get married. And for kingdom purposes, it might be wise to regulate the size of one's family and to regulate when the new additions to the family will likely arrive. As Wayne Grudem has said, 'it is okay to place less emphasis on some good activities in order to focus on other good activities.'"

[living220]

From Tom Short's website. His stand on birth control and children.

Birth Control: If used to prevent conception from occurring, I believe it is permissible. If used to abort after conception has occurred (i.e. RU486), it is sinful and wrong. (Note: see next point).

Children: Are a gift from God. Therefore, be fruitful and multiply! I don't fear that we are overpopulating the earth or that raising kids is too expensive.

[MarthaH]

Apology, I read the other post at NLQ, and at the bottom it does say that she was part of Great Commission International. It seems that the pastor and the conference were, therefore, part of GCI.

I don't find Tom Short's post unreasonable, but that is according to my convictions. My view is more of what was quoted by John Piper (see previous post). I know of many people who have felt bad in the GC church I went to because they didn't have any children or a lot of children. People with larger families were treated more spiritual by the leaders for the most part. Again, it can be subtle, but any honest person would say it was there.

I have heard that one of the national leaders spoke at one of the leadership conferences to other pastors and laid out a Quiverfull type message. In his eyes, it would be only a few generations before GC families were the largest people group in the Christendom (elitist). His conclusion was that "we" (GC) were the remnant because we were populating the earth and making disciples. To the credit of GC leaders, he was reproved. He apologized and retracted his remarks soon thereafter and his message was deleted from the conference messages (as was another he recently gave from the main session from Faithwalkers West 2009).

This idea, however, runs in leadership circles of several GC churches. Many of the young leaders are catching on to it too, which is concerning. I'm happy for my friends and classmates who got married are having children. What concerns me is that this pressure or desire to have large families is not coming from the Lord but rather by being influenced by leadership. So many of them are getting pregnant on their honeymoon. Again, they will say that it is their choice, but when it happens over and over again you have to wonder if the Quiverfull methodology is being presented.

[Huldah (not logged in)]

DefendantRising's story is one of the most disturbing on the NLQ site. If it was indeed a pastor from "our" GCI who encouraged her DH to physically abuse her, then I am more disappointed (in GC) than I can express. Abusive as they were in so many ways, it was comforting to believe that there were lines even they would never cross.

[blonde]

I know for a fact Jim Coleman promoted the Quiver-Full idealogy!  To reach more for Christ.  Very interesting approach.  Can others say that they heard him or others say the more kids you have the more people you will influence?

-blonde

[wastedyearsthere]

I remember hearing Jim McCotter say this. 

[Linda]

We came across some verses, we thought it would be, we said this seems to be a pattern in the New Testament that the women when we met together would cover their heads and wear head coverings...but here's what was going on with us. If we read something in the Bible and we thought it was for us we thought well then,"Let's just do it." I remember the dignity, and the fear of God, and the respect among all the women as they covered their heads and we prayed. I tell you, it made all us guys grow up fast. We thought, "Wow, look at these women. They will bow their heads and cover their hair as a sign of submission to God AND TO MEN."

While listening to a GC history message from Faithwalkers, I came across this quote and found it interesting. BTW, I am not addressing the issue of head coverings. I know many fine Christian women who cover their heads when attending church. The thing I found interesting about this quote was the idea that one of the reasons the "sisters" were covering their heads, was as a sign of submission to the "brothers". (This could explain why the single "sisters" cooked and did the laundry for the "brothers".)

Did GC believe that all GC women were under the authority of all the men? That's what he implied in the talk. As a woman, I find this not only frightening, but confusing. A married woman is under her husband's authority. I agree. (In exchange for that honor, my husband gets to lay down his life for me ). But how does it work out that women are under the authority of all men? It is just the GC men that a woman is in submission to? How about the 20 year old female college student? Is she to submit to the local GC 20 something male college student, but not her father because he's not part of the fellowship? This could very quickly put a knot in the stomach of a new female believer.

I realize this is not exactly a "quivering" comment, but "submission to men" taken to an extreme is where you get husbands spanking wives.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Here's the third installment:
http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/10/19/justice-is-no-lady-chapter-3-company-of-the-faithful/

[Rebekah]

OMG, this GCI story is just beyond words horrible. I'm not sure I'll be able to sleep tonight.