I’m pretty sure GCM doesn’t want to change.

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[sistanchrist]

how about a discussions of specifics that GCM churches could change so that these things won’t happen again. Maybe even ideas as to how they could make the change happen. I think that looking for ways to build up GCM and to encourage change, instead of constantly looking at the negative only would be a good way to start the process of reconciliation, repair, forgiveness, and the wholeness of Christ through out the Body of Christ.

[Samuel Lopez De Victoria]

I totally agree, Sista.



Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D.

[MamaD]

I’m not trying to sound too pessimistic, but I’m pretty sure GCM doesn’t want to change.

The reason I believe that is because we went to many (5 at least) pastors for many hours (more than 35) on many occasions trying to “help them see” how they were being perceived and point out what needed to change.

At our last meeting with one of the founding pastors (who came up from Ames), we were told, “I understand what you are saying. We disagree and would ask that you leave rather than to try to stay and change things here.”

At that point, we knew it was over. Things were as they were by design.

They don’t want to change.

I don’t want to put down your idea though of “constructive criticism”, so maybe what I am saying is…yeah, great idea to list things that they could change, but don’t expect anything to happen!

I guess I am a pessimist!! But, I’m an optimistic pessimist!

[Samuel Lopez De Victoria]

Sista,



I have come to appreciat the “quantum mechanics” of things we see in scripture and because of that, I really don’t care where people are because God is ultimately in control and He can bring gentle as well as cataclismic events into a person’s life so as to get his serious attention. I have often prayed and projected in my prayers healing on the GC guys and that it would come at any intensity necessary to redeem them from their dysfunctions.



That is exactly what happened to me in my life. I am most thankful for God’s “severe mercy” in my life that delivered me from my own “matrix.” I wish, if needed, the same on my dear brothers in GC. I have even communicated it to them, though they responded like a dear looking onto the high beam of an upcoming car. Some day they will know because of the Holy Spirit’s committment to them to not leave them in the same place.



How glorious! I am humbled by this. I am thankful! Amen!



Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Mama D,
I don’t think it’s pessimistic to say they don’t want to change. Sadly, I think this is realistic. I think that in some ways we’ll need to shake the dust off our feet and move on.

In that analogy, as we leave the “city,” so to speak, and shake the dust off, I feel that we are also posting a sign outside the GCM “city” that says, “Warning to all who enter here.” This blog and GCM Warning does this.

I don’t think they want to change or maybe CAN change. I think as we’ve said before the problems are inherent in the DNA of the movement. And as we all know, When something is in your DNA… it’s everywhere and it’s unchangeable. You can only treat the symptoms. To have good DNA you’ve got to start with good raw materials before conception. Conception for GCM has come and gone and now we’re dealing with a complete entity.

We can HOPE for change. We can PRAY for change. We can SUGGEST changes as Sista has mentioned. Maybe something will happen. Who knows? But imagine your old GCM pastor. Imagine telling him what he’s doing is wrong and he needs to change. What is he going to say? First, he will probably minimize the problem. So you show him the evidence: writings, blogs, sermons, personal anecdotes. Then what will he do? Label it divisive and move on, probably.

So I guess what we have here is not “a failure to communicate” (Anyone notice my reference to Cool Hand Luke?), but instead we have a failure on the part of leadership to do what they demand of their followers: submit to someone/something outside of themselves– they are the ones who are “unteachable.”

I would like in the end to have a list of changes we’d like to see supported with our grievances.

Until we have gathered all of that, we may have to be content with alerting potential members, current members, and organizations that GCAC lists as their council of reference.

[Samuel Lopez De Victoria]

Even though in traditional biology there is the common belief that you cannot change DNA (I don’t hold to that belief 100%. There are scientists challenging that construct.) I do believe that, though VERY hard as it may be, an organization can change. If the leaders change the organization will. It all depends on their hearts and the will of God’s Spirit in working with them knowing all the facts taken into consideration. Hey…I was stuck and a few others of us on the National Leadership of GC were stuck. Though it took massive pain, we changed. It was infernal but we, indeed, changed.



It is my hope that the brothers in GC are able to change gently, but if that never transpires then, because God loves them, may the purifying fire come.



Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D.

[nateswinton]

sam,

good thoughts. i’d love to hear your story. i was a history major and still a real history nerd. it’s always made me uncomfortable how scattered and incomplete all the history of GCM seems. kinda reminds me of the principle that the winners of wars write the history books. in a slightly less insidious sense, though.

i know from experience that the *heart* behind keeping alot of the old stories quiet is to protect people that fell into immorality, etc. from slander and gossip. to be honest, i don’t know if that’s right or not. maybe it all comes down to your motivation?

some days i think purifying fire will come down hard and soon, and other times i think there is an immense amount of hope to be had. i’m seeing some heroic efforts being made in ames to even be unified with other churches in town, and to be backing and serving them.

because i’m on staff i’m privy to alot more info about changes in the NET and GCM headquarters. some changes make me uneasy, and i’ve talked to some people from the home office that have been really smoked in the last 2 years by “gcm drama”, but i’m also seeing alot more bare-bones scripture following and wide-spread unity coming around as well. i am speculating that maybe all the “gcm drama” is a more gentle flame than we deserve coming through our midst.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Sam, I agree. Even if something seems impossible or improbable, God can make it change it. So maybe we shouldn’t give up hope for change.

[MamaD]

Nate, you wrote,

“i know from experience that the *heart* behind keeping alot of the old stories quiet is to protect people that fell into immorality, etc. from slander and gossip.”

I just have to say it is not slander, libel, or gossip to have immorality exposed. If people in leadership are covering up sin, it is wrong.

The “plurality of leadership” has failed totally if pastors fell into immorality and the church was not told. If elders are hiding their sin or the sin of other elders, it is wrong and someone needs to put a stop to it before others get hurt.

To cover up sin does not demonstrate a heart for God or a heart for people who may be future victims of the immorality of leaders.

Remember, this is a system where people are told to “obey their leaders”.

I sometimes think the way the system works it that the elders think they are the church. So, if a pastor/elder falls into some major sin, and Matthew 18 comes into play, the “tell the whole church” part in their eyes means “tell the elders and no one else”.

[nateswinton]

mamad,

about the “heart” issue, i wish that this were a face-to-face dialogue right now. i’m going to try much harder to communicate with the most precise language i’m able to muster.

i meant to explain, not excuse the heart of the matter. i think it was on the topic posted above this one where “heart” came up and someone posted that they know people’s hearts as well, they know they’re genuine, but they’re still wrong. i want to belabor this point.

i know that i must be psycholgically hard-wired different (am i crazy?!) than the average person, because i have experience that would lend to me being very very bitter and righteously angry and vengeful towards some in GCM, but even at the larger american church. my stories would be right at home here. i’ve been removed from leadership before. my wedding date was manipulated by my leaders. i’ve been through counseling for my wounds acquired in the past few years. but here i am, trying to make peace and understanding between two groups that seem completely opposed to one another.

i said what i said about the heart so that you would be willing to accept that the evil of most of the leadership you allude to is largely not concious evil.

there is the issue that the pharisees in the bible were yelled at, while the ignorant were treated with compassion. the difference was that the pharisees were proud leaders that claimed they were not blind. this is a severe conclusion to come to when looking at church leaders that give out false (or even misleading) teachings, and claim to know God’s law (i refer to the perfect law, fulfilled by Christ, the law that His blood reconciled us to).

i can’t say with conviction that the pharisees clearly were conciously disobeying God. but they WERE disobeying.

because of my current position in GCM, i am not privy to the deepest inner circles of the “plurality of leadership” you refer to, but i know that in most cases in my church, leadership mistakes are made, and generally repented of. i know that was the case with the overbearing treatment my wife and i recieved in our church. granted, it was a year after the wedding, but the repentance and apology were genuine and the person and i are good friends still.

the things that give me chills are the offhand comments made by men that i don’t know very well. the authoritarian leadership and elitism are things i’m very familiar with, but i’m not in a position in the GCM hierarchy to address effectively.

I’m not going to “rise up the ranks” with an agenda other than to really love and take care of the young men and women that i’m entrusted to. this issue of rebuking and correcting is not something i’m going to give special attention to, but something that i’ll give appropriate attention to based on what my concience and The Word tell me.

i’ve intervened in another situation with a dear friend in another church who was abused by a “deacon-ish” leader. i brought it to the attention of the pastor of that church and we had a meeting and the matter was resolved for the most part. i believe it’s still a sensitive issue, but it’s no secret. i was frankly impressed with how the pastor handled it.

i completely agree that it’s wrong to cover up sin. years ago my girlfriend and i (now my wife) struggled badly with lust issues. we didn’t keep our purity and fell into sexual sin. i confessed it to my leaders, and then to my entire team and stepped down. it was an agonizing and deeply shameful process, and i felt very unsupported (but not completely condemned, for the record. i felt some level of grace. the rest of my team were young believers for the most part and didn’t know how to handle it).

i build my thoughts on sin issues in church leadership around this. that’s the model i feel is right (the part about confession, repentance, and stepping down) the body should have an opportunity to know of and deal with the sins of their leader, and the leader should step down until he’s able to live in victory over that sin issue. how else will he be able to really lead in intrgrity.

and just to throw a huge grenade out there, i don’t feel restricted to say only “he” when talking about leaders. i’m still working out my theology there… maybe i need forgiveness there?

[Genevieve]

Whoa. Thanks for your honesty. You seem like a really smart, good guy.

Are you reading your own posts? That crap ain’t normal, and it ain’t good. It’s really admirable of you to make peace with those who have hurt you and to forgive, but that doesn’t mean you have to stick around.

I’m sure Ames has lots of good, healthy churches you could serve God in.

But I think it’s especially hard for those to leave who were born into the movement or saved through it, so no pressure! :-) Just keep thinking all of this through and don’t play the martyr or try to be their savior.

[nateswinton]

genevieve jones,

“That crap ain’t normal”?

What church do you go to? Clearly they don’t have GCM’s issues, or I doubt you’d be raising all these flags for me.

And for the record, if you ever go back in time (I’m being sarcastic to make a point), you’ll probably want to avoid the churches in Corinth (they’re immoral), Galatia or Phillipi (they’re legalistic), and Colosse (they’re heretics). I say this in jest to make a point. But in all seriousness, these churches had these issues.

I feel comfortable in GCM because I’ve participated in many of the predominant denominations in the midwest, and find equally “condemning” concerns for all of them.

I know that the fact that all churches struggle is no reason not to call sin, sin. But it is a reasonable reason to stay where you are. Or at the very least, it is a reasonable reason for me and my wife.

Persecution aside, I’m willing to accept the broader verse that says “In this world you will have trouble, but take heart”.

Wasn’t it Lewis that wrote “It is a serious thing to walk among immortals”? I read that today, maybe it was around here even? I’m going along with the thought that we’re not always going to be in these churches, in these bodies, with these misunderstandings. This is a temporary condition.

I’m going to make the best of it. All of us already have a martyr and savior, thankfully. So I don’t really need to do anything in that sense.

[MamaD]

Nate,

You wrote:

“my wedding date was manipulated by my leaders.”

Then, you went on to humbly confess some sin that was in your life and the agony and shame involved in dealing with it.

I appreciate your honesty.

The part of your comment that bothers me is the”my wedding date was manipulated by my leaders” part.

I Cor. 7:9 says: “But if they can not exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.”

And, I Corinthians 11:3 says:”But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

Putting those verses together, my question would be, “Why would a wise leader manipulate a wedding date and what business is is for a leader to manipulate your wedding day?”

I guess one good reason would be if you wanted a certain pastor to marry you and he was going to be out of town that day so you had to change your day! But that’s not exactly manipulation. Another acceptable reason would be if one of you wasn’t a believer, or was in violation of some other scriptural reason to not get married.

Other than those very specific biblical reasons, the only people involved who should have any real say in the matter are the parents of the bride and groom.

If the pastor thinks you need to make more money, be more involved in church, read your Bible more, eat more carrots, whatever, it’s okay to say it, but I wouldn’t want to be the guy responsible for extra temptation on someone because I wouldn’t marry them for a non-biblical reason.

I think this gets to the heart of the issue that some of us have. The Bible is clear that there are leaders in the church. It’s one of the gifts.

However, the Bible is also clear that there is one teacher, Christ, and we are all brothers and sisters. Read Matthew 23:8-10. Any system that puts a leader or leaders in the “Guru” position is a bad one. The Holy Spirit speaks directly to all believers.

Pastors are to be examples to the flock. They are not to be the Holy Spirit to the flock. There is a big difference.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Nate, I hear you about other churches having their issues. I posted some comments I think in September about some churches I have been to in the past.
There is a big difference though between those churches and your church and my GCM church. And that is the issue of church governance. However you slice it the church governance of your church has some major failings. And NO CHURCH should ever get into their followers lives like yours has gotten into your life. I am so glad they apologized if for no other reason than it makes it easier for YOU to forgive THEM. But, this kind of thing just CAN’T happen. It just can’t. I heard of a very similar thing happening in my church with the wedding date, etc. This was based on a church event or something. Anyway, they did like you, accepted it and moved on.
Nate, hear me out for just a second, WHAT IF the church governance was set up in such a way, that authoritarianism can creep in super easily. It would be like placing a child in the middle of a candy store and saying, “Don’t eat any candy.” I guess what I am trying to say is, “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
In other words, the church governance is set up in such a way, where these authoritarian decisions will be made and repented of againa and again and again.
It really isn’t loving of us to keep placing men in these positions where it is very difficult to lead properly. There must be checks and balances, and there should be some input from the congregation.
This is not just the American view of government, many churches throughout the ages have had some great church government setups.
To expose sin in the leadership is not only just, it is imperative so that the congregation is aware and on guard. And maybe, it might cause some in the congregation to get out of the same sin themselves.
And I don’t think it is unreasonable for you and your wife to stay, it really is none of my business. It may be different when you have kids. That was our big catalyst. We knew we could discern, but we figured it would be awhile before our kids could discern right teaching from wrong teaching… so we fled.
This has been so far an excellent dialogue, everyone… thanks for all the input.

[Samuel Lopez De Victoria]

With respect to whether sins or leaders are hidden or opened up for church scrutiny, I would be careful about being too dogmatic in this area. having pastored, having started a few churches, and having worked with whole Latin American regions of churches, I say each case is unique and each case needs careful administration of grace on our part. If a particular sin was done in public or with public consequences then that sin probably should be confessed and repented of publicly. If it does not fulfill that kind of criteria (based on Peter’s public hypocrisy with the Gentile believers when Judiaziers

approached in Galatia) then it would be kept private. Example, if your husband has been looking at porn on the internet and he is a pastor, should he immediately go before the church and repent publicly? See the problem? It is not always clear cut and should be handled with kids gloves lest we damage God’s work, a man, a family, a church, etc.



I would like to add that it is great to have Nate here. You’re a cooool guy, Nate. I love your heart and your humble honesty.



Just my two cents.



Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D.

[nateswinton]

Mamad,

I should have been more clear in my earlier post, My (now wife) girlfriend and I falling into lust and me stepping down happened several years before our wedding. We have a rough story *before* you throw GCM into the mix.

My date was “manipulated”, and I mean that in the least sinister, well-meaning sense possible, because I was leading a “team” here in town and we wanted to get married in September. Anyone who has ever done dorm outreach knows that September is a busy month. It was strongly suggested that I move the date. With alot of weeping and gnashing of teeth (zero exaggeration), we submitted and moved our date forward a few months to a more calm time of the year.

Then my wife’s dad got deployed to Iraq, and she couldn’t bear the idea of being married without him walking her down the isle. So we moved the date back to where it orignally was, much to the dismay of all my leaders (who all managed to be silent at the time and not oppose the new decision). My grandpa, who is a retired Methodist minister, did the ceremony. Partly because we knew he would, and we were nervous about asking our pastors, but mostly because we really like him. He’s a great grandpa, and gave a great message.

When it became clear that I’ve got oldschool GCM blood in me - in that I put the mission over my family - and I barely skipped a beat in the dorms after getting married, people kinda came around. By my 6-month anniversary it was clear that my marriage wasn’t going to fail and people started apologizing.

After my wife’s dad died a few weeks ago the apologies came in earnest. Clearly it was right that we got married when we did. Clearly God was leading us. My pastor said told me he’d never question something like that again after seeing what happened. We only really see eye-to-eye on occasion, but he’s a very honest man.

If something like this happens again within my field of view, I’ll be deeply concerned. I journal alot. I’m not going to forget all these life experiences. I love history and believe we ought to understand it, because it not only helps us understand today, but helps us believe that we can affect tomorrow.

I agree, the authority thing is scary and a huge temptation. *For all people in authority* GCM just has a track record of alot of people giving in to that. It wasn’t my pastor that directly “manipulated” the wedding date (though I’m sure he was connected), it was a yonger man that was discipling me.

He made a mistake, I gave (some) grace, he apologized, I forgave. Now if this becomes a common interraction between us, I’ll be concerned, but it was honestly a mistake. All of us young men are constantly making mistakes. I’m constantly begging God to make me more wise, because I hurt people on accident too. Just not in authoritarian ways.

There are checks and balances in a genuine plurality of leadership. When that system fails, we have a tragedy. I believe that there are checks and balances in my church. I see them. Mistakes are called mistakes and corrected.

We aren’t going to achieve a utopian state here on earth, guys. I wish we could. The most GCM burned guy I know personally told me “I gave up believing in utopia on earth through the church when I moved to GCM headquarters”. And that’s not necessarily GCM’s fault. That’s a wrong expectation about life on earth. “In this world you will have trouble”!

I completely agree, it is not “ok” for these things to go on. But is it reasonable to expect man to continue sinning? Of course. I’m not here to stop people from sinning at all. Christ came to solve that problem, because He knew we couldn’t stop.

I do think we ought to be actively fighting urges to sin in our lives, and I am very vigilant in my life and with my brothers and sisters to help them with that. Don’t panic.

Maybe I’ve already made the transition in my mind from hoping for utopia today to accepting the task of doing damage control pre-heaven.

[MamaD]

Nate,

I’m very sorry to hear about the death of your father-in-law.

[Anonymous]

Other than those very specific biblical reasons, the only people involved who should have any real say in the matter are the parents of the bride and groom.

Well, now that you mention marriage..

In the small groups I was involved with, it was common knowledge that if you ever wanted to get married in the church, you had to prove to your discipler that you were dedicated to God (read: GCM) by attending nearly every meeting, doing all that your discipler told you, and waiting until someone above you gave you permission via “counsel” to marry a certain person before you approached them. Failure to do this meant you were not ready to get married. Stories were constantly told of couples who were married in this manner, and re-told in sermons. Never once have I heard any small group lesson or sermon on marriage that gave an example of someone in the church who didn’t do it this way.

In a case where a girl of the group got engaged to another believer outside of the church, without approval of a GCM leader, most of the small group refused to go to the wedding. The message in several life groups/sermons I attended was that as you dedicated more and more of your life to the church, God would show you someone who was also dedicating their life to the church, and as you grew you would eventually grow to the point where you were “ready” for marriage. I think marriage is often used in the college groups as a sort of carrot on a stick to keep people coming to meetings and saying the right things. When talking about marriage the only verses that ever seemed to come up were the ones from proverbs on seeking counsel before making war, not the actual verses on marriage.

[Genevieve]

Nate,
I’m also very sorry about the death of your father-in-law. Thank you for telling your story so openly and honestly.

I’m shocked and appalled that that kind of authoritarianism (the “crap” I referred to earlier) happens even in Ames with Dave Bovenmyer fighting so hard against it.

I’m so glad they apologized and that you’ll be watching out for this in the future. I’m also so glad you went ahead and did what you and your wife knew was right. Many people would not have that strength.

It goes back to GCM working like a military unit. The mission is more important than the soldiers. The fact that you knew you had to “prove” yourself all over again is another telling sign.

You obviously know this is wrong and see the weaknesses, which I’m thankful for. Keep your eyes open.

[TerryD]

Nate said:

“some days i think purifying fire will come down hard and soon, and other times i think there is an immense amount of hope to be had. i’m seeing some heroic efforts being made in ames to even be unified with other churches in town, and to be backing and serving them.”

I applaud your openness and optimism. In my opinion,the purifying fire will not have finished its work until it burns away some deeply rooted foundational GCM beliefs—having to do with the founders’ views of the body of Christ and the nature of biblical leadership and discipleship.

It is a failure to understand the fundamental Matthew 23 principles of how Christians are to relate to one another, and a failure to fully apprehend the principle of the priesthood of every believer (I Timothy 2:5} that lie at the theological root of all authoritarianism and unhealthy, controlling practice in GCM or any other group. While I have no doubt that these errors were unintentional (nearly all are)and were generated and perpetuated more by youthful zeal rather than malice, GCM’s traumas of the past and recurring run-ins with critics and ex-members seem to have always centered on these issues.

There is to be no master/servant, rabbi/devotee relationship between believers in the new covenant. “…you are all brothers.”Mt.23:8 ESV Jesus said this in the context of contrasting what we are to be like as opposed to the scribes and Pharisees, whose doctrine was basically sound but who were inordinately preoccupied with recognition and position.

Of course there are Spirit-given ministries of diligent leadership and bold teaching. But every office in the church, every ministry, every discipling and mentoring strategy must be measured against what Jesus said about believer relationships. Whenever a discipler/mentor crosses the line, damage is done. One way that line is crossed when any extra-biblical conformity is required of the disciple—personal decisions about dating, marriage, family life, career, church affiliation, money, education etc.—in the name of “submission” to a mentor or a leader. The careful, mature discipler steps back, terrified lest he insert himself into the precious relationship between the believer and his Master “you have one instructor, the Christ.” Sadly, many zealous groups have modeled and taught something else in the name of discipling. This is nothing new and not limited to GCM.

Every thought about governance must be measured against I Timothy 2:5 “there is one mediator….” and Eph. 4:4 “There is one body and one Spirit…one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” Whenever church structure unduly elevates and isolates leaders (singly or in plurality), and provides no real place at the table for its members (via presbyterian, congregational or some other form) and provides no real final accountablilty to the congregation, something of great New Testament significance is lost for both members and leaders. The careful, mature church creates a polity based upon New Testament, not Mosaic precedent. Whatever arrangement you choose, if what develops in leadership is a sort of priestly “order,” where leaders become the filter for the voice of the Spirit through the Word, be wary.

As I read and hear the stories of people on this blog and elsewhere, it seems to me these might be the doctrinal threads linking them together, and at the root of many of the alleged ”abuses.”

Purifying fire will produce real changes, a public correction of some teaching, new freedom and a new participatory role for members, new focus on the glory and sufficiency of Christ and away from human effort and zeal, new emphasis on the authority of the Word and away from the authority of men—and ultimately tangible changes in church structure and polity, because these too can be traced to the same habits of thinking. The doors of your organization will be thrown open, counsel will be sought from other established evangelical groups, speakers will be brought in from the outside (surely you have noticed that GCM tends to hear almost exclusively from its own) Anything short of this is at best lip-service and window-dressing, mere sentimentality, and ultimately inadequate.

Is it possible for something like this to happen? Of course it is! As you describe some of your leaders, it sounds like maybe lots of people are ready for something new.

“Unity,” as you perhaps are being taught to think of it, may have to go on the back burner for a while. The heroic search for truth will have to dominate and that could be a painful, contentious business for some time. It’s not by accident that many people are anonymous on this blog, even years after leaving the movement.

The wisdom and experience of others would probably suggest to you that you’re in for a bit more than you think when you engage something so entrenched, but God bless you for trying to help your organization get it right.

And here’s some unsolicited “fatherly” advice. Do get some input from somebody besides GCM people and ex-GCM people. Read voraciously. You might read up on the ICC (Boston Movement) to get a sense of what happens when some of these teachings get an additional twist on them. Connect up with college group pastors and leaders and members from other established churches—CMA, EFree, Assembly of God and others (all imperfect in their own ways, of course). Bounce things that you struggle with off them and see what they think. Don’t forget about your own parents and other family members. However imperfectly, they may be looking out for you more than almost anybody else and see things you don’t. And if things don’t work out, there is no disloyalty to Christ in moving on and finding a church home somewhere else.

This comment got way too long. If you made it this far, apologies.