Is This Forum Harming the Name of Christ?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[EverAStudent]

McCotter the GCI apostle [Alexander the coppersmith] did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed [scriptural] teaching. (2 Timothy 4:14-15)

I wrote something to the church; but Darling [Diotrephes], who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. (3 John 1:9-11)

and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Clark and Hopler [Hymenaeus and Philetus], men who have gone astray from the truth saying that they are the husbands of the church, their bride [the resurrection has already taken place], and they upset the faith of some. (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

for McCotter [Demas], having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to New Zealand to make money [Thessalonica]…  (2 Timothy 4:10)

For who regards GC [you] as [the] superior church? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? You [claim you] are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you. (1 Corinthians 4:7-8)

Can it truly be said that there is a difference between putting the names of false teachers onto online forums versus naming false teachers via handwritten correspondence as the epistle writers did (see above) then circulating those letters to every church in history?  

Is not the content virtually the same and only the technology has changed?

Should bad teachers be identified by name at all?  Certainly the apostles and the prophets thought it was a good idea.  

However, it is valid to ask whether naming unsound teachers and calling attention to their poor doctrines will harm the name of Christ.  Answer: NO!  Not according to Scripture.  The harm done to the name of Christ is not in exposing false teaching but in the false teaching itself:

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; (2 Peter 2:1-2)

It is “because of…false prophets…and false teachers…that the way of the truth will be maligned.”  It is not maligned because people try to expose and correct the false teachings.

[False teachers] … must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. (Titus 1:11)

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, … In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1, 6)

What do you think?  
Is this forum improper for pointing out the unsound doctrines of GC?  
Is this forum causing the way of the truth to be maligned?  
Should this forum be terminated?

[Linda]

Well said, EAS. Thank you for taking the time on a beautiful Summer day to articulate this point.

[Innerlight]

I am reminded of a message John Piper gave on criticism vs. gossip. In the explanation he said it is not gossip to criticize President Bush (at the time he was president) or John Piper with regards to things they say/teach publicly. He went on to say that public figures, subject themselves to public critique in regards to their beliefs and actions.

How do you think John Piper would react if he knew this verse ws in anyway connected with this website?

[Linda]

First of all, this is not a verse, this quote was my paraphrasing of something John Piper wrote a few years back.

I can't pretend to speak for John Piper, but I would imagine if he heard that a pastor/national leader said, "And so even to give the controls over to God, that's hard, but the real kicker here is God is saying, "give the controls over to people that I work through, and these people are fallible, these people make mistakes, these people are weak at times. You-outta work through it anyway," that's what God says," he would say something like, "Whoa, Nellie, this is not a good idea. This is certainly not Protestant theology. This is not sola scriptura."

I have heard/watched John Piper, in person, hold up his Bible and say, "If you read this book, and find anything I say in disagreement with what this book says, you listen to this book."

I believe John Piper supports the right of people to post on forums and say, "Christian hedonism is a bad thing. Here's why."

As I recall, JP recently had a few things to say publicly about Rob Bell's theology. I support his right to publicly disagree with Bell and I support Bell's right to speak his mind and disagree publicly with Piper.

[Innerlight]

Well I have much to say,  but again let me stress:  I am not in any way condoning bad teaching, or doctrine, let alone cheerleading for GCC.  I have read enough of the posts, that I see they have deeply hurt many people, and they seem to exhibit some very controlling behavior.  Having said that:  I know people who wouldn’t go to church anywhere else and think the world of their respective GCC church.  They believe the same tenants of the faith, and no doubt they have led many to Christ.

The churches addressed in Revelations had much to condemn and to praise.  No church is perfect, nor is any pastor, deacon, elder or Sunday school teacher…nor are we who sit in attendance.  There is an old adage:  “when you find the perfect church, don’t go there, as you will ruin it”.  Martha (I believe) said it correctly; there are many ways to approach theology, the Bible, and all the opinions that swirl around it.  I also know that the Bible warns about “knowledge that puffs up”, and divisive quarrels which solve nothing, and everyone goes away mad.  We are to show love and unity, with plenty of grace for all.  Knowledge displayed arrogantly helps no one.     

In Jesus’s day the Rabbis were said to argue over how many angels could fit on the head of a pin, or the rhetorical question:  “Did Adam have a belly-button”.  I have a friend whose son is a Torah scholar, and lives in Jerusalem.  They have to memorize the thing before they even get accepted.  After that, they sit in a room, and argue for hours over the meaning of some obscure verse in Leviticus.  One of the things I should have taken to heart by pastor/mentor/friends was to stay away from this type of thing.  It usually leads nowhere, and for the most part they are correct.  Typically, the one who is quick to grab his Bible and commentary to prove some point, has a personal issue they need to deal with…namely they have gotten their self-esteem wrapped up in their religion.  I have been guilty of this as well, and need to keep this in check….my bad!

Regardless of what John Piper said, and opinions about what constitutes slander, gossip or constructive criticism, what is being spoken of in James (in Greek) is Katalalein or the noun: Katalalia, and it is the sin of slander.  It generally refers to slandering someone when he is not there to defend himself.  It can also mean to “speak harshly of”, and when it is used in Corinthians it is used in connection with gossip.  No matter what anyone says…this has occurred on this site numerous times.
   
This sin is condemned throughout the Bible: 

Psalms 101: 5
Whoever slanders his neighbor in secret, him will I put to silence; whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, him will I not endure.

Romans 1:30
slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents

2nd Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
1st Peter 2:1
Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.

This is making a huge mockery of the admonition to “Love your neighbor as yourself”

In addition, as James goes on, you are setting yourself up as judge, something that is reserved for God and God alone. 

“We might think that to speak evil of our neighbors is not a very serious sin.  But Scripture says it is one of the worst of all, because it is a breach of the Royal Law and an infringement of the rights of God”
-Barclay

Well, this is the end of Part One.  No sighing!  I’m out to grill some steaks. 

[Linda]

Well, then, by your definition, isn't what you just typed slander against the posters on this forum?

[Innerlight]

So then we both agree:  There are slanderous comments on this blog.   

what exactly did I write, which you viewed as such?

[Linda]

I was pointing out that you had redefined slander to mean speak harshly of. If that were true what you posted would be slander. I do not agree with your definition of slander.

[AgathaL'Orange]

When someone stands up and says, "God says to do this," and it's not what God said to do, then yes, I am going to stand up against that.  If someone hurts someone and said that God told them to do it and that goes against everything I know to be true about God, then YES, I'm going to stand up against it.

Again, I don't think it's good to say that "Joeschmoe is an evil man, an abuser, and had an affair" on a public forum.  Well, unless it was very very very serious abuse that was corroborated and likely to occur again.  But for the GC type of oddities/borderline abuse/sometimes actual abuse, I think it's fair to call out the specific teachings and practices that are bad, without condemning the person who did it.  

We are all sinners.  We fail again and again.  We do our best.  

I think it hurts Christianity for people to think it's a super controlling, joyless, weighty, and depressing journey where you are just a tool and a recruiter.

Christianity is so so so so so much more than a ticket to heaven.   I hope I don't malign the name of Christ here.  I hope to do the exact opposite, to show that Christ's behaviors were different than GC's teachings.  Have I messed up here?

Oh probably.  For any errors or sins that I have committed, I am truly sorry.

But I love Jesus.  And His teachings.  And I am a fan of the underdog, so naturally I want to right wrongs when I can.

[AgathaL'Orange]

For what it's worth, this is a similar problem that many women in abusive "Christian" marriages deal with.  Those who take a hardline stance on submission will tell them to go home and win their husband without a word, using scripture to justify abuse, instead calling for peace and harmony.

Well, peace and harmony do not exist by overlooking bad behavior.  I'm a pacifist for the most part, but I don't believe in standing idly by while someone is getting beat up and say, "Jesus said turn the other cheek!"

If you read forums where people have left the faith after abuse, what they often can't understand is why no one helped them, defended them, or called out the behaviors that were bad.  So, I stand by my belief that "overlooking" serious issues in the name of defending Christ's name is dangerous, and in my opinion, wrong.  It's wrong. 

[EverAStudent]

Agatha, thank you for your comment.  I agree.  Scripture demands something of us when we see false teachings and when we see abusive Christians: "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them" (Ephesians 5:11).

Yes, our God given mandate is to expose those who "deceive you with empty words" (Ephesians 5:6a) and not to ignore them with sheepish silence.  Why?  Because "... all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light" (Ephesians 5:13).

In other words, by being obedient to this Scripture and focusing light on GC's bad teachings and abusive oversight style what they did secretly and in darkness must be explained away or changed by them.  When they change their sinful patterns (because of being exposed) their dark practices will become light.

Now some may argue that "...it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret" (Ephesians 5:12), and therefore it is disgraceful for us to speak of what GC has done.  Verse 12 cannot be made to contradict verse 11.  Verse 12 simply means that the dark deeds are so disgraceful that even speaking of them to expose them is distatesful to the righteous, but we must put aside our personal discomfort and expose them anyway.  It is not possible to legitimately force some kind of ban into verse 12 to make it trump verse 11.  The two verses work together to show that while exposing sin leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, it must be done so that the sinners will stop what they are doing.

Blessings to you Agatha.

[Linda]

McCotter the GCI apostle [Alexander the coppersmith] did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed [scriptural] teaching. (2 Timothy 4:14-15)

I wrote something to the church; but Darling [Diotrephes], who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. (3 John 1:9-11)

and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Clark and Hopler [Hymenaeus and Philetus], men who have gone astray from the truth saying that they are the husbands of the church, their bride [the resurrection has already taken place], and they upset the faith of some. (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

for McCotter [Demas], having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to New Zealand to make money [Thessalonica]…  (2 Timothy 4:10)

For who regards GC [you] as [the] superior church? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? You [claim you] are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you. (1 Corinthians 4:7-8)

Can it truly be said that there is a difference between putting the names of false teachers onto online forums versus naming false teachers via handwritten correspondence as the epistle writers did (see above) then circulating those letters to every church in history?  

Is not the content virtually the same and only the technology has changed?

Should bad teachers be identified by name at all?  Certainly the apostles and the prophets thought it was a good idea.  

However, it is valid to ask whether naming unsound teachers and calling attention to their poor doctrines will harm the name of Christ.  Answer: NO!  Not according to Scripture.  The harm done to the name of Christ is not in exposing false teaching but in the false teaching itself:

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; (2 Peter 2:1-2)

It is “because of…false prophets…and false teachers…that the way of the truth will be maligned.”  It is not maligned because people try to expose and correct the false teachings.

[False teachers] … must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. (Titus 1:11)

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, … In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1, 6)

What do you think?  
Is this forum improper for pointing out the unsound doctrines of GC?  
Is this forum causing the way of the truth to be maligned?  
Should this forum be terminated?

Innerlight, EAS started this thread with a great post and I wanted to get back to it. It would seem that according to your view, Paul and John are slanderers since Alexander, Diotrephes, Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Demas were not around to defend themselves when they were written of in a negative way for all to read for all eternity.

I think what sometimes happens is that the concepts of sinning against someone and false teaching get mixed up in people's minds. Matthew 18 applies to when someone is sinned against. Verses like the ones EAS pointed out above apply to false teaching.

I understand there can be meaningless quarrels over doctrine, but for a church that considers itself protestant, teaching that we are to give the controls of our lives to the pastors is not one of those meaningless quarrels.

[Innerlight]

Well let’s be honest with each other.  This site came into being to correct perceived and real doctrinal errors in the GCC community of churches.  I am assuming one (maybe more) person (s) decided to begin an on-line blog, due to their disagreements with church leadership. 

The justification for this is that we all have a mandated Christian duty to seek out and expose false teaching wherever it is found, correct and rebuke that teaching.
 
Titus refers to the false teachers on the Island of Crete.
 
1st Timothy is clearly talking about “doctrines of demons”…is that what you are accusing GCC of, or as an example of how we are to correct false teaching?  Is Paul not talking directly to Timothy as to how he should preach and work within the church.  Is that not the pastor’s job, or are you saying it is the duty of every Christian?

As far as the other verses (which have been proof texted), and persons name’s inserted, that is beyond the pale.  Whoever did that, needs to have serious inward look at the damage they have inflicted on a fellow-brother.  You do not know their motives, only God does, and only God can impartially judge….Manipulating scripture and inserting words…

Jesus warns us in the Sermon on the Mount, in very familiar verses:

You are known by your fruit:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

That applies to us as well.  Does this website produce grapes and figs or thorns and thistles?  Explain to me how this website builds up (edifies) the body of Christ!

“Judge not lest ye be judged”, what many don’t understand, the same measure you used will be used against you as well. 
Jesus does not prohibit judgment, but he does warn the same measure will be used against you.  He also requires that our judgment be completely fair. 

According to the teaching of some rabbis in Jesus’ time, God had two measures that He used to judge people. One was a measure of justice and the other was a measure of mercy. Which measure do you want God to use with you? Then you should use that same measure with others.

Are you judging with mercy and grace…or are you being judgmental?

Judging and being judgmental are two different things!

Romans 16:  17-18
I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.  For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 

Divisions in the church…even in Paul’s day. 
“smooth talk” or “plausible”  Greek:  chrestologos  This is the man behind smooth talk and a facade of pious words, leads people astray, not directly but by subtlety.  They pretend to serve Christ, but in reality are destroying the faith.

The man who has brought strife to the church will answer for it someday, as will the man who puts up hindrances, as will the man who causes anyone to stumble.  They will answer to Christ who is King and head of the Church.

I ask again:  is this website building up or tearing down?       

Does not love, grace, mercy, unity and forgiveness trump all???

[Linda]

Does not love, grace, mercy, unity and forgiveness trump all???

I say a loud and resounding, "NO!"

Truth trumps unity!

You apparently see it the way Jim McCotter & Dennis Clark saw it in their book on leadership.

Unity is the cardinal doctrine…There must be unity at all cost. When believers divide over so-called doctrine, they are always trampling under foot the cardinal doctrine — UNITY.

Also, the primary purpose of this site as stated here:

"De-Commissioned, a forum for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, and the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology."

In my view, it is more to warn people of aberrant teaching, rather than to correct doctrine. We tried patiently to point out the error to the elders. They don't want to change. They don't understand. At some point, the loving thing to do is move on and warn others. Perhaps you can't fully understand since you have never been part of a GC church.

Honestly, this is kind of old news. Most of us "regulars" posting have made our reasons for posting clear. It would be helpful and kind for you to read the old posts and explanations before you assume to know our motives.

[Innerlight]

Linda,

When Christ returns, and asks for an acocunting of what I did with my gifts and talents, it is my sincere prayer that I can say, I helped where I could, I gave generously, I protected the orphan, and cared for the widow.  I used my talents of teaching and the grace you gave me to get through seminary to spread the gospel, and teach faithfully.  I pray he will say:  "Well done faithful servant".

I do not want to say:  I ran a website to obstensibly correct false teaching and doctrine, but it was really a cover to settle a score with GCC, and it's leadership.

I pray that a DVD (or whatever) is not shown in heaven, showing the damage, the mighty fire started by the tongue (since we started in James), that this website caused to current and potential Christians.  There are already atheists posting on this site, who must be laughing it up, along with a few demons as well. 
 
Remember:  "what you bind on earth is binding in Heaven"  I would make peace with Mark Darling or whoever, while you still can, leave your gift at the altar, and do it quickly. 

EAS:  Quite frankly, you ought to know better.  A man with your biblical knowledge engaged in this.  Since you are such a fan of Rob Bell....Love really does win in the end!

Goodbye all! 

[EverAStudent]

Linda, I think you have voiced the short version of what I was thinking in regards to any lengthy response to Innerlight's comments which began with, "Well let’s be honest with each other.  This site came into being to correct perceived and real doctrinal errors in the GCC community of churches."

His entire mistaken idea that love "trumps" justice or "trumps" sound doctrine makes a mockery of the Scriptures and a mockery of God's own nature.  God's love never trumps His nature of justice, truth, or jealousy.

Moreover, the lengthy comment from Innerlight was filled with baseless accusations, torturings of the meaning of well-understood Scriptures, and an angry passion against those who have used this forum to warn others to "be on guard against GC yourself."  As such, I feel there is little need to address the comments further, unless something he said confused someone else and they need some clarification (in that case, just write to me).

No one here has any idea how desperately I wish that this forum had been in place when I first joined GCI.  I would have fled its influence which would have allowed me to (hopefully) engage in more righteous and God-honoring pursuits with the remainder of what was then a young life.  If this forum has caused any Christian to investigate more fully the doctrines and practices of GC, then the forum has been well worth it, whether such a person has actually entered GC with their eyes open or left GC knowing that some of those doctrines are indeed inspired not by God but by His adversary.

When I stand before God, I suspect I will give no answer for my sins.  Christ will speak for me, as my advocate and mediator.  If He finds that I have been inadequate in providing warning to others of false doctrines which I clearly knew about (among other things) I shall surely be much ashamed.  If I was overly zealous in providing warnings, then too shall I be much ashamed, but I will know that I at least tried to be a faithful servant with the knowledgee that I did have.  I would not be much of a minister for Christ if I did not address and expose false teachings, would I?

[Linda]

Thanks for your post, EAS.

I would like to clarify two things Innerlight implied in his apparently final post.

One, I did not start, nor do I run this web site. (Not to imply that I have a problem with those that did/do. I, in fact, like EAS, appreciate what they have done.)

Two, I do not have a score to settle with anyone in GC.

[nelliepooh]

In my opinion this site is focused on one set of churches, it is not about all churches.  There are many christians that post here as well as non christians but its not a forum about how a church is evil or a cult or whatever, its a place where people can be free to discuss things they have experienced with the group.  It is also a place where people can go if they have chosen to leave to find peace in that they are not the first or only person that thought this church wasn't healthy for them.  Its a place of love and support, not a place of idol gossip and slander.  To say the forum is harming the name of Christ is rediculus, save that label for the websites that are blasphemous to God.

[blonde]

I know I speak harshly about Mark Darling, but it must be understood that the very reason I do that is because he speaks so harshly in his sermons at others that do not go to his church, and that he has hurt a lot of people all the way back even in Ames, Iowa. 

Leaders like him need to be addressed in such ways.  I see it as criticism.  Not as slander or gossip.  For damn sure he has yelled a lot about others, like Catholics.  He is a Catholic-hater.  I have heard him even comment about South Asains in a bad manner.  Almost like a red-neck.  Maybe more, like an un-educated, un-cultured pastor, high school drop out from Iowa.   

He needs to grow up, that Darling.  The world does not revolve around his world-view.