Leaving

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[trthskr]

Friends...

I've decided to take down some posts because in my early stages of realizing truth...I may have said some things in anger...and some that didn't exactly aid in hiding my identity.  I'll write more on this later...

Love,
trthskr

[trthskr]

comments? Please? 10 people have looked at this in 15 minutes....

[puff of purple smoke]

Do you have another place in mind? It might be easier to transition into another healthier church group from your current one, a little at a time, than to just walk away cold turkey.

[Truth Lover]

April 28, 2008

Dear Truthskr,

Please believe that our heartfelt prayers are going up to God on your behalf and our sympathies are with you.  Yes, we can identify with you since most of us here have been through similar situations.  Just know that God will lead you to a better place as you continue to trust Him.  Sometimes it takes a while to find a new place but I agree with Puff that it would be good to find a new and better place soon.  One website we have found helpful is BibleBB.  In the upper left hand corner is a tab called: "Looking for a good church?"  Click on that and then scroll down to your state.  Hopefully they will have one listed in your town's vicinity.  Check it out.  All the churches there teach the Bible, although I'm sure each has different "personalities".  It is a trustworthy site with many good resources there to feed your soul.  Just know that since we all have been in GC and had to leave (please read my bio at Hellos & Testimonies to understand our situation), we also know that God will use this to grow you in your faith, hope and love and also your understanding of Him and His Word.  He will draw you close through this if you let Him.  Read lots of Psalms.  Keep in touch with us, either privately or on the forum.  Trust the Lord.  He is sovereign and all loving and all powerful ~ indeed He is our most gracious God and Savior and He will uphold, strengthen, and comfort you.

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort; who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.  For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ."  ~ 2 Cor. 1:2-5

[Truth Lover]

Here is the link to Biblebb ~

http://www.biblebb.com/

Remember too:  

"And we know that God causes ALL THINGS to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."  Romans 8:28

[MovedOn]

I'm sorry to hear you are going through this hard time.  When we left, we lost quite a few of our friends.  I still had my husband and our son by my side, and I knew that God was on my side, so that is all that mattered.  It was hard, but we were also relieved that we were moving on to find a church that wasn't so focused on gearing so many of the sermons to non-Christians.  That was our main reason for leaving.  I was also in the church band, and had experienced some decisions in the band that didn't seem biblical to me. When we left, I had no idea about all of the problems about how the church was founded or the letter of apology.  My husband did call the head pastor of our church prior to our leaving. We didn't want rumors starting about why we left.   I think my parents were glad to hear we were leaving.  They attended a few of our services and had some concerns, which unfortunately we dismissed because of pride.  Please know that you are in my prayers.  I had many friends that I had known since college, and I have not talked to them since we left. I have no regrets though. I am thankful for the few friends that I still keep in contact with. Some of them have left the church, and a few are still attending.

[wastedyearsthere]

When we left it was pretty traumatic -- it felt like a death or a divorce.  I had many friends but when I left I wasn't "priority" anymore so they didn't keep in touch.  I have to question whether they were true friends because I have friends who go to other churches and denominations.  There are some that still keep in touch (once a year by Christmas cards or will call when they are in town).  

I wish I had left years earlier so I think it is great that you have the courage to go forward.  I agree -- it does  help if you have a new church to get involved with.  

Over time, the hurts have healed and I have a new set of friends and a new church.  

Virtual Hugs and prayers

[Postpre]

I don't even know if it is worth it to talk with leadership because I am told by several others who have left that it is impossible to present your side or concerns with them because they simply say you are not listening to their authority.

It wouldn't be wise to refrain from speaking with leadership about your concerns simply because others are telling you that they won't listen.  Do you really think that it would be "impossible to present your case?"  I find this hard to believe.  Whoever is saying this must be embellishing, because if your church leaders were like this, then it is highly unlikely that, under this type of leadership, there would many in your Church "striving to live for the Lord."

However, my major concern is that this church was funded on sin. Prideful sin. And this is the root of the same issues we are dealing with 30 years later. And I wasn't told the whole truth. We are told Jim McCotter and 20-30 students went on a blitz to start the church. But why? Because other churches weren't living out the commandments of the Bible. How horrible.

Why does it matter so much today if the Church was founded in this manner?  In other words, why should this historical fact color your view of the body that you are currently serving with?  Many Churches (and most denominations) have been founded by men who broke off from an existing group.  It's not necessarily pride that causes this, but a quest to mirror the Church (whether in doctrine or in practice) as founded in the New Testament.  The facts that you point to, in my opinion, are rather irrelevent, especially if your current Church is pretty healthy and Christ-centered.

I've been attending this church for over 2 years. I love these people, they are my only friends, and on Friday I am going to loose a vast majority of them.

Considering this, I don't think you should do this without first going to your leaders.  Why do you think that the Church's authority is oppressive?

[Linda]

Hello trthskr,

I'm sorry for what you are going through. Before we left our GCx church we spent dozens of hours over many months speaking with many pastors. Looking back, I now consider it a waste of time because I believe they are so indoctrinated with the old ways that they are unable to think clearly enough to even hear what you are saying.

We know many who have just left without speaking a word. I think life has been easier for them. It's hard to leave either way, but if you just make your move quietly there isn't the back stabbing that comes when people misunderstand your motives and judge you as a rebel (or as they say in Scientology an SP--"Suppressive Person").

Great Commission has taken their stand. Their beliefs are now quite public (unlike when we left). "Give the controls of your life to the men God works through" and  "commit to your local church for life unless the elders give you permission to leave" are their mantras. If you find these theologically wrong, there is really no need to go to them unless perhaps you want to warn them in love.

Our particular former GCx church states currently on it's web page that it was founded as a "dream in the hearts" of two of the pastors. As it turns out, that isn't quite true. It seems that these two pastors and a bunch of others were sent up to Minneapolis in 1985 by Jim McCotter as part of a massive national evangelistic campaign by the Ames church.

When leaders have withheld significant information from you (especially about their beginnings) and as a result you have been misled in significant ways by them, they can no longer be trusted (which is a really sad thing--especially when they are your friends).

So, my advice would be that you have no obligation to "ask" them for permission to leave. As you leave, if you feel a need to tell them why, be as clear and as loving as you can be (keeping in mind that you will probably be accused of being rebellious and not being loving).

God bless you.

[EverAStudent]

Hi trthskr,

Yes, since you did "join" the fellowship, you probably ought to explicitly sever membership as well, as a courtesy if for no other better reason.  No need to be angry or upset doing so.

Sadly, our leaving was made horrific by the elders.   We had seen the errors of doctrine in GCI over the years, and my wife and I had found a wonderful Baptist church in the area.  At mid-day, one Sunday, we matter-of-factly told the elders we were leaving to go to that church, they began acting as if they were physically ill to their stomachs.  

At midnight that same night the elders showed up at our apartment to explain we were committing the sin of divorce against the church (yes, the midnight gestapo imagery was obvious to us even then).  Then they launched into a type of "trial" against my character, while putting my wife on a pedestal (I think they were trying to drive a wedge between us--divide and conquer).  My wife begain pointing out to them the errors of fact they were speaking, and eventually called them liars to their faces.  They finally left, but what an unnecessary drama!  And yes, we lost all our friends that day.

I am grateful to God for His kind treatment of us since.  

In spite of the drama of that day, I still believe telling them is the proper thing to do, not by using accusations, just telling them the level of disagreement is sufficient that a break has become necessary.  http://thefaithfulword.org/leavingchurch.html

[Immortal_Raven]

"So do not fear, for I am with you.  Do not be dismayed, I am your God.  I will strengthen you and help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." -Isaiah 41:10

That verse helped me through so much, not just leaving my particualr GC church.  The weird thing for me when I left was that my wife and I weren't doing it because we couldn't stand it anymore.  Our GC church was our college church.  She had received a student teaching job and I had landed my own job in another city that didn't have a GC church.  But when we told people about it, they started trying to get us to stay.  And it wasn't the, "We'll miss you, and we really love having you around" speech.  It was a "You're not respecting church authority, What would Jesus do?" speech.  

It's been about 2 and a half years and my wife and I still keep in touch with a few people, but a lot of them we don't.  I'll admit that my old GC church is pretty mild compared to some of the stuff I've heard on this forum, but some of the core values like local church authority and womens' roles are still prevalent and I don't agree with them.

One more thing.  Linda is right.  You don't have to ask them for anything.  Go gave you the free will.  Feel free to use what God has given you.  Be prepared for the backlash.  It seems like an inevitable part of leaving a church.  Just know that if you truly believe in God, he'll take care of it.  So be strong, keep going, and post on here if you need more.  One thing I've never seen on here is turning away a brother in need.

God speed,

-Immortal_Raven

[Linda]

Yes, since you did "join" the fellowship, you probably ought to explicitly sever membership as well, as a courtesy if for no other better reason.

I agree that you should officially "unjoin" your church if you were a member. You can do that in the form of a simple letter if you wish.

A couple that is VERY close to us met with an ECC pastor at a Caribou to tell him of their plans to leave and their reasons for it. This pastor listened for less than 20 minutes and then when they asked him where they had gone wrong in their thinking, he picked up his things and WALKED OUT ON THEM saying that my husband and I had hurt him too much by our leaving and he couldn't go through this again. This was very bizarre to say the least. I think that there are some pastors who are "on the edge" and see that something is "off", but are instructed to just walk out if they start to be persuaded that the doctrine is unsound.

At midnight that same night the elders showed up at our apartment to explain we were committing the sin of divorce against the church (yes, the midnight gestapo imagery was obvious to us even then).

This is amazing. How long ago did this happen?

We just had one elder show up with a letter of rebuke (a year after we left--I know I keep mentioning it, but it was so bizarre that I can't forget it). We have a plan in place that if any elders show up unannounced, no matter what time of day, they will not be let in.

I do believe that sometime in the very distant future, an elder may wish to apologize to us. Our door would always be open for that (but they would have to call first and not show up at midnight with the gang!).

[lone gone]

If you feel uncomfortable and worried about pressure from them, then you have every right to not meet them in person alone. Bring a friend.

If you are a young Christian, you may well be bullied into submitting again.Write them a letter telling them of your decision.

When I left the Ames church I wrote a letter thanking them for what I had received but also letting them know I was no longer going to fellowship with them.

I was shunned after that but they never visited me or contacted me again.

[trthskr]

...

[trthskr]

Also, everyone, if you haven't seen the earlier post, please do pray for Jessica Darling.  We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, one body and one bride, and even if we may disagree on some things, there must always be love for one another.  always.

[DesiringTruth]

trthskr, I wish you well and will pray for your situation.

I wanted to add to something Linda said in a post above:

Our particular former GCx church states currently on it's web page that it was founded as a "dream in the hearts" of two of the pastors. As it turns out, that isn't quite true. It seems that these two pastors and a bunch of others were sent up to Minneapolis in 1985 by Jim McCotter as part of a massive national evangelistic campaign by the Ames church.

I was present in a key meeting held in Ames during which Jim, Dennis Clark, and other national leaders met with leaders in Ames and around the Midwest region at the time to discuss sending out leaders and people to various places around the country as part of Invasion '85, including the Minneapolis church.  There was a great deal of vigorous discussion about Jim's Invasion '85 strategy to send out so many people, leaving the churches at the time cut to the bone regarding leadership and resource support.  Lots of concern voiced by local church leadership, especially in Ames, and I remember Brent Knox being particularly concerned about this.  Even though there was a great deal of sharing by Jim McCotter and other national leaders, the overall feeling I had at the time is that local leadership, including pastors such as Brent Knox, thought it was a mistake to send so many people out, but the conclusion of the matter was that Jim's presence over the issue weighed heavily.  People ended up following Jim against their own judgment.  I was amazed at the degree of vigorous discussion and submission to Jim during that time.  But I also was young and had firmly planted in me the principle of submission to older elders - in this case, apostles - so submission was in operation during this meeting and the events that transpired after that.  Linda, it was also my impression that people like Brent moved out as they hitched their dreams to Jim's.

[Linda]

The Invasion '85 thing has always been kind of vague to me. Could you explain it a little more?

My understanding is the national leaders (McCotter, Clark?) came up with a plan to "send" leaders and "worker bees" various directions to start new churches. A big question to start with would be why start a new church in cities that already had a bunch of good Bible believing churches. That in itself smells of sectarianism.

Also, it leaves me with the impression that the churches are much less "independent" than originally thought if they were all a result of some national people orchestrating the church plants.

Were people just told by the elders to move? Or, was it a little more subtle?

We really had no clue about this when we joined ECC. We noted that ECC was a member of two associations. Willow Creek and Great Commission. We had no understanding of what being a member of Great Commission meant in terms of doctrine and history.

Since you were there, it would be interesting to get your perspective on how Invasion 85 worked.

[trthskr]

And with any concerns about Jim McCotter, you are met with the defense that, yes, he messed up, but he is no longer a part of our association.  Yet here I sit with a copy of "The Secret of Success" by Jim McCotter...obtained at the 2006 Faithwalkers.  The first page states "1 Peter 1:5-6...If there is a text verse in my own life on the subject of humility, this is it"



Freedom in Christ...I am tasting it for the first time in 2 1/2 years, and how Sweet it is...

[AgathaL'Orange]

Oh yeah, I know!  We heard in a sermon once that our pastor respected Jim McCotter more than any other Christian he had ever known (or something to that effect... don't remember the EXACT wording).

[Linda]

I love these people, they are my only friends, and on Friday I am going to loose a vast majority of them.

I just reread this. I am so sorry. Many of us have been in this position, or at least felt alone. It sounds like you have a great family though who will support you and, of course, God is good and an ever present friend.

For us, it wasn't so much that GC people were our ONLY friends, or even our BEST friends, but they, over the course of 10 years, became the people we spent the most time with. Several days a week. So, they became our "social" life as well as our church. This is often the case in sects and cults, so leaving them turns into leaving your "friends." It is a wicked thing.

Last Saturday we had dinner with an 81 year old retired Bible teacher. He was also a pastor, an evangelist, and is currently preaching as needed at a small CMA church. I asked him about a church he attended for years and left about 20 years ago. I asked him why he left.

His answer was interesting. He said, "I didn't leave the church. The church left me."

(In his case it took an ultra charismatic prosperity road).

However, in many ways it describes my experience. It seemed like we were on the same road for a while. And perhaps we were, but then there was a "fork" in the road. The commitment to the local church and leaders for the rest of your life had never been taught as gospel till shortly before we left. They took that turn. We went the other way.

Commitment to people and groups is a subtle heresy. But then I would imagine most heresies are.