Leaving

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[puff of purple smoke]

I have decided to NOT speak to my "authorities" or whatever  .. I spoke instead to one of my close friends who is big in the movement. I explained my reasonings

And they most likely told every leader in your church what you told them, so you've been able to speak to your "authorities" indirectly.

[Truth Lover]

My husband was one of the authorities.  He was a pastor for many years.  When he tried, over a long period of time, to graciously and humbly explain to the other pastor where their differences were and what was the more Biblical way to "do church"  (meaning just teaching the Bible instead of having light entertaining messages for unbelievers) or even regarding certain doctrines clearly taught in the Bible ~ he wasn't really understood either.  It was very hard.  He was told he was not humble, messing up the unity...  It was good that he tried ~ we could look back with no regrets, knowing that we did all we could to help them see the light (but they didn't).  But don't expect that they will understand, agree, or be warm and gracious about anyone who leaves.  We all need to do what is right as far as we can, and then leave the results to God as He works ~ either letting them go their own way or beginning to soften their hearts.  Just know that if you stay close to the Lord and others like us here, you will find a better place to worship the God you love and the hurts will lessen with time.  As with any deep pain relationally, it still hurts when you think about the past, but you begin to see how God's sovereign plan worked out for your good, and even the pain of being misunderstood or misrepresented is something we can use to help us identify a little with Christ as He was perfectly holy and was the One most misunderstood and unfairly treated.

Anyway, I'm praying for you, Trthskr ("Vowelseeker"  )

For our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ~

[MidnightRider]

...
 I spoke instead to one of my close friends who is big in the movement.  I explained my reasonings, and when met with the divorce idea I almost fell over.  

I have heard this idea from a few different sources, though not always stated as strongly as "divorce" and not always from GCx. I noticed that not very many people tell you this until you are leaving their church. Somehow they forgot to tell you when you showed up that you shouldn't be divorcing whatever church you just left.

Carrying the analogy a little further, since they never told you that you were getting "married" to the church when you joined, this is really more of an annulment than a divorce. And you might tell them it is VERY RUDE to marry someone without their knowledge and permission.  

I thought he knew better...but I explained that this was not my conviction and therefore knew I was not sinning agains the Lord.  See Romans 5:13 and 4:15...and I don't interpret any verses in the bible to say that this is a divorce.  No Law, No Sin.  The Bible is a lot more liberal than I originally realized.  And Acts 23 was huge for me too.  I thought I was turning over tables, but wow, Paul, just wow.  And the Lord was pleased with his actions and told to go do it elsewhere as well.

So you called him a whitewashed wall and told him you were on trial because of the resurrection of the dead?

A lot of girls I told beforehand really flipped, and the ones who were christians before GCM were completely understanding

You have probably noticed this by now. People who have had a Christian life before GCx tend to do a lot better than the ones that got saved there in terms of how they operate inside GCx and how they get along when they leave.

[trthskr]

Weird thing is...before the Lord really revealed all of this to me, as I look back on things...I've always said that the things I've heard were said that were a little off were off because the people saying them hadn't been to other churches and known that other churches spread the gospel too.  Other churches love the Lord, too.  I excused all this before, knowing that they were new Christians and didn't know better...  

I went out today and bought a new bible, knowing that I need to re-learn what I believe and what I was taught through GC.  It's like starting from the beginning.  All I know right now is that Christ died for my sins and I am going to heaven.  Its refreshing...exciting to gobble up the word...and in a strange way it feels like a new salvation.

I wondered why I used to like listening to my old school music so much...my DC talk and Newsboys...I think it brings me back to high school where my faith was free-er(sp?) and I was allowed room to make mistakes...given...my mistakes were large and not good, but I've grown from them.  I love it.  I'm in love with my saviour more than I was before.  He's the only one I feel like I can be completely honest with about some things...I'm allowed to be angry and say angry things when I'm talking to Jesus, because he already knows how I feel.  But I'm getting less and less angry and more just thankful and joyful for this newfound realization.  FREEDOM in Christ!  I feel like I'm walkin' through a field of daisies with him.  The only entities I will now allow to call me a girl...are my parents and grandpa's...and Jesus.  I am his little girl.  I am a child of God, but a Woman of the faith.  As such, I trust myself to discover the Lord's will for my life.  And I love it.  I love it.  I love it.  The other day, before this all went down, I was studying in a coffee shop and not my bible...it was patho as I remember..but I just got this overwhelming feeling of love from the LORD and I can't explain it.  I AM IN LOVE!!!  One verse I think is important for healing:  Romans 14:18-19 "Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.  So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding"  

Love to you all

[EverAStudent]

One verse I think is important for healing: Romans 14:18-19 "Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding"

Amen!

Joining a local church is not "getting married."  Use of the "divorce" passages of Scripture with regard to moving from one local church to another is yet another example that some GCx elders often lack the ability or will to interpret passages of the Bible accurately and honestly with their congregations.

We are the bride of Christ.  Our lifelong committment is to Him.  He bought us with His blood, and we are His possession.  When church "leaders" accuse a person of "divorcing" the church because they leave, they run the serious risk of setting themselves up as a surrogate Christ, yet they never gave their blood for us, redeemed us, or justified us before God.  

Follow God.  If His spirit leads you to another church, go.  If He leads you to stay, then stay.  But to go is not a divorce in any biblical sense, for we remain the Bride of Christ regardless of which local church we join.

[Linda]

We are the bride of Christ. Our lifelong committment is to Him. He bought us with His blood, and we are His possession. When church "leaders" accuse a person of "divorcing" the church because they leave, they run the serious risk of setting themselves up as a surrogate Christ, yet they never gave their blood for us, redeemed us, or justified us before God.

Follow God. If His spirit leads you to another church, go. If He leads you to stay, then stay. But to go is not a divorce in any biblical sense, for we remain the Bride of Christ regardless of which local church we join.

Well said.

[Peggy]

I  too have been thinking of leaving. I have been part of a GCM church since 1990. I struggle because I know I will loose all my friends.  I have given so much of my life to this church. I have mixed feelings because I got saved as a result of this location and have since had a personal relationship with Christ.  They will be moving into their new building around June 1st. I am thinking this mught be the time to step away without too many people noticing. I have mentioned my thoughts on leaving to 2 pastors they both seem upset and tell me not to leave and just wait things out or that churchs are 80% goos and we will find 20% that we don't like, that there is no such thing as a perfect church. I see some things in recent years I do not agree with. I have voiced my concerns but in the end it seems it just rolls off their backs. I also want a more in depth walk and more in depth teaching. It seems like everything is geared to the new believer and finding new believers, but little to maintain the ones who have been there for a while.   Questions that still nag at me is about the church : over 18 years I have seen thousands come and go, why can't they keep the people that get saved there? Why do so many go on to other locations. Shouldn't a healthy church be able to keep the ones already there as well as lead new belivers to Christ? Shouldn't it be a growing congeration?  I am trying to find a good church in the area and hope to spend this month going to the GCM location on Friday and then Sundays check out the other churchs.  I am hoping the Lord will lead me in the right direction as to where he wants me to go.

[Linda]

Anything I wish I had done differently? Yes. There are a few people in the church I was fairly close to. I wish I would have sat down with them and told them why I was leaving. As it was, the church leadership got to spin that to everyone. Or maybe I just disappeared into the memory hole. I don't know.

I was just re-reading some posts and this comment stuck out. I feel the same way.

We were worried about "slander", so we said very little to other people that we knew quite well. We were there 10 years and knew a lot of people. Terry was in the band, so was quite visible. And, I wondered why no one asked about our departure. I think the leaders must have gotten to people first and given them some generic reason for our leaving that satisfied them so they felt they didn't need to ask us.

I also think that some of the leaders were misinformed as to why we left and the specifics of all our discussions since not all leaders were involved in the discussions.

I agree that not telling people allowed the church leadership to spin our reasons for leaving.

Just to note:

We thought it very odd that our friends NEVER asked us why we left yet in spite of that received a lot of comments from people that demonstrated that they thought we left because we didn't like the changes in the high school ministry. That must have been how they spun it. They would say things like, "It's too bad that you left because you would really like the changes they have made in the youth group. Parents are really involved now."

Just to note for new readers:

We have in our "documentation" an e-mail from an ECC pastor asking us to agree to a generic two sentence statement of why we left and TO SAY NOTHING MORE IF ASKED. We, did not agree, obviously. I wonder if others have been asked for statements of silence.

We actually joked about agreeing with the statement and if asked we would pull an index card out of our back pocket and read it word for word and then say, "I'm sorry, I can say nothing more."

Obviously, as I look back, I realize that how we were treated after our departure indicates that our decision to leave was a wise one. A sad one, but a wise one.

[EverAStudent]

Peggy wrote:

I too have been thinking of leaving. ... I have mixed feelings because I got saved as a result of this location and have since had a personal relationship with Christ. ... I see some things in recent years I do not agree with. I have voiced my concerns but in the end it seems it just rolls off their backs.

Everyone here is thrilled that you were saved 18 years ago!  GCx has always been bold about evangelism...certainly their strength.

I also want a more in depth walk and more in depth teaching. It seems like everything is geared to the new believer and finding new believers, but little to maintain the ones who have been there for a while. Questions that still nag at me is about the church : over 18 years I have seen thousands come and go, why can't they keep the people that get saved there? Why do so many go on to other locations. Shouldn't a healthy church be able to keep the ones already there as well as lead new belivers to Christ? Shouldn't it be a growing congeration?

Immaturity of leadership with regard to the ability to learn, interpret, and accurately teach the Word of God is one of their weaknesses.  Part of that weakness is their inability (unwillingness?) to see or admit this weakness.

I am trying to find a good church in the area and hope to spend this month going to the GCM location on Friday and then Sundays check out the other churchs. I am hoping the Lord will lead me in the right direction as to where he wants me to go.

No church is "perfect."  Every church, "traditional" or GCx, is composed of sinners, redeemed sinners, but sinners nonetheless.  You must place yourself under leaders who are are growing ahead of you and are thus able to guide you.  We only grow to the extent that our teachers have grown, though I might add that with the Holy Spirit and ready access to the Word, these also being our teachers, it is possible for the sheep to outgrow the elders.  Find a church where the "shepherds" are able and willing to feed the sheep.

They will be moving into their new building around June 1st. I am thinking this mught be the time to step away without too many people noticing.

As with trthskr, I would encourage you to formally sever membership if you do decide to leave.  But do so without anger or accusations (just as you have already indicated you desire to do).   http:// http://thefaithfulword.org/leavingchurch.html  

Oh, and, Welcome to the forum!

[MidnightRider]

We have in our "documentation" an e-mail from an ECC pastor asking us to agree to a generic two sentence statement of why we left and TO SAY NOTHING MORE IF ASKED. We, did not agree, obviously. I wonder if others have been asked for statements of silence.

We actually joked about agreeing with the statement and if asked we would pull an index card out of our back pocket and read it word for word and then say, "I'm sorry, I can say nothing more."

You should have counter-offered your own 2-sentence statement that they would be required to stick to.

Mine would have been something like this: "MidnightRider left our church because of our amateurish Bible teaching and increasingly authoritarian church government. He will be looking for a new church that will help him understand what the Bible says and doesn't tell him to submit whenever they come up with a bad idea."

I am sure all of you can do better.   :wink:

[EverAStudent]

"MidnightRider left our church because of our amateurish Bible teaching and increasingly authoritarian church government. He will be looking for a new church that will help him understand what the Bible says and doesn't tell him to submit whenever they come up with a bad idea."

Outstanding!

[MidnightRider]

Everyone here is thrilled that you were saved 18 years ago!  GCx has always been bold about evangelism...certainly their strength.

I once thought that, too. I am not so sure now. They practice a lot of a cetain kind of evangelism. But that does not mean they are doing Biblical evangelism.

At the very least, they are not being up front about telling potential converts all the stuff they are committing themselves to (submission to elders, marrying the church and not divorcing, etc.) when they get evangelized.

[Linda]

Mine would have been something like this: "MidnightRider left our church because of our amateurish Bible teaching and increasingly authoritarian church government. He will be looking for a new church that will help him understand what the Bible says and doesn't tell him to submit whenever they come up with a bad idea."

In M2Z Larry Pile included a copy of a 1976  prayer letter. It mentions the "works" (that's the word the GCI literature used) in various states and who is heading them  up.

The names in MN were: Jim Coleman, Steve Johnson, Don Schonberg, and Duane Anderson. It says they were active on the campus of the U as well as in the city.

Pile writes about it:

It was during the Michigan conference (and with the advice and counsel of the Norman elders meeting there) that Kandy Kline was excommunicated from the fellowship in Norman, again on the old familiar charge of "faction" as it had been understood in the case of Bill Taylor three years earlier. In addition, the Blitz fellowship in Minneapolis, Minn., was willfully split apart on the advice of elders from Ames, who, during the Michigan conference, urged Minneapolis elder Jim Coleman to separate from his co-elder, Don Schonberg, because the latter disagreed with the Blitz "strategy." Effected in mid-September 1979, the split resulted in the formation of two new churches--one of about 30 adhering to Jim Coleman, and another of about 70 remaining with Don Schonberg. Obviously, in spite of other, positive reforms there was no immediate softening of the Blitz stance on the "strategy."

What I have never heard is what happened to the Minneapolis work. How did Coleman happen to leave and how did the new wave of Ames people arrive and take over the GCI work in Minneapolis in the mid-80's. Who made the decision to send new people here? And, what happened to Coleman?

[lone gone]

I once thought that, too. I am not so sure now. They practice a lot of a cetain kind of evangelism. But that does not mean they are doing Biblical evangelism.  At the very least, they are not being up front about telling potential converts all the stuff they are committing themselves to (submission to elders, marrying the church and not divorcing, etc.) when they get evangelized.

That same thing could be said about any Christian organization that shares the Gospel. No one  that I am aware of tells an seeking person... "Here is the good news of salvation and also here is how we do church and what we expect of someone who chooses to fellowship with us."

[DrSam]

Mine would have been something like this: "MidnightRider left our church because of our amateurish Bible teaching and increasingly authoritarian church government. He will be looking for a new church that will help him understand what the Bible says and doesn't tell him to submit whenever they come up with a bad idea."

In M2Z Larry Pile included a copy of a 1976  prayer letter. It mentions the "works" (that's the word the GCI literature used) in various states and who is heading them  up.

The names in MN were: Jim Coleman, Steve Johnson, Don Schonberg, and Duane Anderson. It says they were active on the campus of the U as well as in the city.

Pile writes about it:

It was during the Michigan conference (and with the advice and counsel of the Norman elders meeting there) that Kandy Kline was excommunicated from the fellowship in Norman, again on the old familiar charge of "faction" as it had been understood in the case of Bill Taylor three years earlier. In addition, the Blitz fellowship in Minneapolis, Minn., was willfully split apart on the advice of elders from Ames, who, during the Michigan conference, urged Minneapolis elder Jim Coleman to separate from his co-elder, Don Schonberg, because the latter disagreed with the Blitz "strategy." Effected in mid-September 1979, the split resulted in the formation of two new churches--one of about 30 adhering to Jim Coleman, and another of about 70 remaining with Don Schonberg. Obviously, in spite of other, positive reforms there was no immediate softening of the Blitz stance on the "strategy."

What I have never heard is what happened to the Minneapolis work. How did Coleman happen to leave and how did the new wave of Ames people arrive and take over the GCI work in Minneapolis in the mid-80's. Who made the decision to send new people here? And, what happened to Coleman?

Jim is in Colorado as an assistant pastor in some church. His email is:
Jim Coleman <revspeaks@earthlink.net>;

[MidnightRider]

No one  that I am aware of tells an seeking person... "Here is the good news of salvation and also here is how we do church and what we expect of someone who chooses to fellowship with us."

Not true. Right now I am a member of a Presbyterian Church (PCA). We attended about 5 years before joining. And we asked them about it, not the other way around.

I had also visited an Eastern Orthodox church for a while. They told me to take as long as I wanted to decide about joining, and find out everything I could about them.

[DesiringTruth]

Jim Coleman is pastoring at Abundant Life Church in Mead, Colorado.  He lives with his wife, Pam, in Berthoud, Colorado.  This couple are truly wonderful people.  I've known him personally from his days with GC in Colorado and after GC (a little).  I did not know him very well during his times in Minnesota.  After leaving GC in Minnesota, he came out to Colorado to be part of a Denver-area GC church, but did not function as a pastor.

[Linda]

Jim Coleman is pastoring at Abundant Life Church in Mead, Colorado. He lives with his wife, Pam, in Berthoud, Colorado. This couple are truly wonderful people. I've known him personally from his days with GC in Colorado and after GC (a little). I did not know him very well during his times in Minnesota. After leaving GC in Minnesota, he came out to Colorado to be part of a Denver-area GC church, but did not function as a pastor.

I spoke with someone a couple years ago who goes back to the pre-ECC days as I was trying to learn more about the relationship between the old GCI church and ECC. They spoke very warmly about Jim Coleman.

Was he asked to leave when Invasion '85 came about? Were a bunch of leaders "replaced" by the Ames invasion? I still think it's very odd that the history of ECC is so vague. Seems like it shouldn't be so hard to figure out how a church came about.

[trthskr]

...deleted by poster...

[exshep]

I just saw your post. I am sorry to hear you are leaving.  That is a painful process to which I can relate. You have support in the forum.    I have read some of the responses. Nevertheless feel free to continue sharing what is on your heart and mind.