let's take a step back....

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[boboso]

All,

This website has been therapeutic for me as I needed to know I wasn't the only one seeing the pain GCx has been passing out in "their" churches.

However, I've noticed a little too much vindictiveness in the tone lately --

Remember, many in GCx "leadership" (if not all) are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

1. Many in GCx *choose* to be led like this and don't want to know the full freedom that Christ bought for us. It's a lot harder to make your own decisions and live by them!  

2. I honestly think the "leaders" believe they are doing the best they can to serve the people in "their" church. Yes, they are confused and yes their view on leadership is absurd, but I do believe they believe it's the best for everyone.

Yes, I know most of you all were hurt by some of the "leaders" -- some worse than others -- and yes, I know many have given the benefit of the doubt. I'm not suggesting that you don't acknowledge the pain, I'm just suggesting to have a larger perspective.

Actually, I sometimes think that most of these harmful acts can be chalked up to simple willful ignorance and ambition to "lead". I think some know what they're pushing is wrong but they're tied up by other factors (salary, family, etc.) It doesn't make it better, just makes them human.

If any of you have a chance to win some of these "leaders" over, I say, forgive and help them overcome this mess. Your willingness to love them despite the pain some of them caused you will be a great witness for all.

Mercy overcomes judgment!

[Angry]

Who let Dr Sam post as "boboso"?

In your first sentence, you state that you have seen the pain gcac/slick50/rock has been passing out.  What is worse, to acknowledge the harm and allow it to continue, or to try and stop the pain from spreading further?

If a child molester lives on your street, do you just say "live and let live"... or do you caution the neighborhood children from going to his house to sell Girl Scout cookies, play video games, and drink Jesus-juice?

I'm with the group of parents who step up to the plate and say "NO, YOU STAY AWAY FROM OUR CHILDREN AND STOP HURTING THEM!"

Blitz/gcm/h20 is a dangerous group and it would be wise for a child to avoid going up to their door and knocking.

Happy Hannakah all -
Angry

[nateswinton]

If my daughter, Cayleigh, went to college and hooked up with GCM, I'd freak out.

[boboso]

Angry,

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying to ignore the pain GCx has caused or pretend it never happened.

Of course, call a spade a spade. Of course, if someone is passing out GCx kool-aid, call them on their false views of leadership and correct them in love.

I'm just saying, a lot of the pain they're causing is not necessarily deliberate. Yes, there are days I'm extra angry and disgusted. From a larger view though, understand that some of these "leaders" are looking for a way out and need us to help them. I regard one of them I knew very well with pity more than anger now.

I don't think these "leaders" are sitting around dreaming of ways to make their congregations miserable.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Hmm.  No one has seemed exceptionally angry or vindictive lately in my opinion.  Was there something specific Boboso?

I would say that I too feel pity for the majority of people in GC, including many leaders who live lives of constant self-hatred and self-doubt.  It's the ones who started this whole pattern and perpetuate it that upset me.

It is a psychological tool used to control and manipulate... even if it is UNINTENTIONAL!

In a recent example a GC leader calls people who didn't attend a certain meeting "rebellious."  The meeting was an "extracurricular" political meeting regarding citizenship, not really the kind of meeting that strikes me as particularly important.

Now it's that sort of thinking that is scary.  Who decides who is rebellious?  Who decides what constitutes rebellion?  God sees the heart, not this leader.

I think people came down hard on Randomous because he was becoming part of the "Bad" side of GC... the ones who judge everyone else and say they're rebellious, or factious, or slanderers, or whatever is the current evil at hand.

And we here are saying, "Enough. You can't follow us here and lay guilt trips on us.  We can forgive, but we are not subjecting ourselves to any more guilt.  Nor will anyone else be allowed to pile the guilt on other weaker people when we're around.  Sorry, it's just not going to happen."

[boboso]

"In a recent example a GC leader calls people who didn't attend a certain meeting "rebellious." The meeting was an "extracurricular" political meeting regarding citizenship, not really the kind of meeting that strikes me as particularly important. "

I actually saw some of this too and I agree, this is completely unacceptable.

I'm not saying we should lay guilt trips on ourselves at all. I am with you 100% Agatha.

I think Randomous is confused, not evil. Again, it doesn't make the results of their confusion any better.

I'm just gently saying not to de-humanize them (I've done this in my own thoughts) as I think this is wrong too.

[G_Prince]

It's easy to go overboard, especially when you are dealing with lots of bitterness and anger. But I don't think we have been dehumanizing anyone here...well maybe just a little. I wont pretend we are always right. And I think we could always use more civility and grace.

At the same time, and I know this is unChristian, I don't mind GCx getting what is coming to them. With all the negative, presumptuous and judgmental  bile they've spit over the years it's nice to see a little Karma taking effect. I look at this site as one of the many problem children GCx has spawned over the years. The reality, which GCx would hate to admit, is that they were the one's who created this site. If you mistreat enough people you can't expect all of them to cow to your authoritarian, muffling tactics.  Some people are going to say exactly what they think of you.

[Linda]

I'll weigh in on this discussion with a quote from G.K. Chesterton about his brother:

My brother Cecil Chesterton, was born when I was about 5 years old; and after a brief pause, began to argue. He continued to argue to the end; for I am sure that he argued energetically with the soldiers among whom he died, in the last glory of the Great War. It is reported of me that when I was told that I possessed a brother, my first thought went to my interminable taste for reciting verses, and that I said, "That's all right: now I shall always have an audience." If I did say this, I was in error. My brother was by no means disposed to be merely an audience; and frequently forced the function of an audience upon me. More frequently still, perhaps, it was a case of there being simultaneously two orators and no audience. We argued throughout our boyhood and youth until we became the pest of our whole social circle. We shouted at each other across the table, on the subject of Parnell, or Puritanism, or Charles the First's head, until our nearest and dearest fled at our approach, and we had a desert around us. And though it is not a matter of undiluted pleasure to recall having been so horrible a nuisance, I am rather glad in other ways that we did so early thrash out our own thoughts on almost all the subjects of the world. I am glad to think that through all those years we never stopped arguing; and we never once quarreled.

In a way that is how I feel about this forum. This is not a quarrel, this is a group of people making an argument for Biblical truth. That discussion is worth having.

To think someone is wrong in this Oprah generation, seems to mean that you hate that person. That's very sad and makes contending for the faith more cumbersome because you have to be navigating the murky waters of the nuances of how you said something, or why you said something, or whether or not you like the person who has the opinion that differs from yours.

In fact, I am reminded of what one pastor said to us when we went to him after a pastor (GCx, but not from our church) said something that was wrong. The pastor said, "I believe that teaching was off, but I can't correct him because that would be questioning his motives." Incredible. So, if I say 2 plus 2 is 5, someone shouldn't correct me because that would be questioning my motives? Perhaps it's just questioning my understanding.

Warnings, for the most part, are loving things. I am a loving mother when I warn my child not to touch the hot pan. I am appreciative when the tornado sirens sound to let me know that I need to seek safe shelter. So, why is it that a bold warning about an idea that we think is contradictory to the message of the supremacy of Christ, is considered unloving and slanderous? And, apparently, heretical, since Titus 3:10 was used in reference to critics of GCx.

Perhaps our boldness in speaking out is a measure of our love for GCx leaders and attenders. We are warning them so they might rethink the old ways and measure them with the truth of the Gospel, looking to Christ alone, which may involve recanting the old ways.

[boboso]

As I said before, I think the site is great and I know it's helped a lot of people open their eyes to what is really happening at a GCx. I am glad there is such a warning out there --

I am all about boldness and honesty, but I think we should also be about self-control. So long as we keep our own hearts (mine especially included) in check and work to gently help others out of the GCx mire, it's all good to me.

That being said, it's hard to hate the sin, but still love the sinner. I've had to ask myself so many times: am I out to help/correct them? or to seek revenge?

[Jason Stauffacher]

Everyone:

Here is an email of a friend of mine, a former GCx youth leader of mine back at Evergreen....well, this woman was at the Mark Darling recognition in Ames.  Crazy.  She was involved way back then.

What my point is citing this email is three points and then the choice email:

      1) If this boboso/Sam wrote this about "us" being mad at the leaders in GCx, we do have a reason.  We do.  If everytime you walk by that old house, and that damn dog barks its head off at you and scares the pants off you and your girlfriend as you walk home from school, how likely will you walk by that old house anymore?

      2) Life is full of gains and failures, at many differing times.  Many have lost many needed life experiences in GCx, as we were told at pre-Evergreen, early-Evergreen circa  said that it was wise to witness at the University of Minnesota BUT not advised to go to that liberal school.  Witness-witness-witness.  (I wish I finished college sooner, as I followed the Evergreen lead, so I did not, and finished in my mid 20's).

3) This email from my old youth pastor, AGAIN, shows what a person experienced at GCx in Iowa under Mark, and, also what I experienced under Mark and Brent Knox talking about "weigh control" at Evergreen.  My mom was over-weight, and my best friend's mom was over-weight and both women were part of a support-class run by Barb Brown, of the famous Bill Brown (former national leader).  Brent disbanded this Bible-memorizing and support-group weight watchers class as the women did not lose weigh fast enough.  I guess one month is not fast enough.  Brent disbanded it AFTER 4 weeks of not losing weigh.  (Ironically now, Mary Knox runs a Christian Weight-Watchers group.  And Brent supports that one, weight-loss or not.  Mary is at the helm.  It's gotta be stellar. There could nothing be wrong there? Hmmm?)  

So Sam or boboso, whoever you are, the leaders just keep the same dysfunctional gift going, and going and going like the Engenzier Bunny.....

Here is that email from her about Mark Darling's recognition and Mark's view of the heavy people.  It just keeps on going and going and going:

"I have NEVER recognized Mark Darling as an Elder. I
walked out on his recognition. I have counseled with him
before about a job situation, and as one person to another he
was very encouraging. I think he is prejudice and uses the
Bible to justify it. I think he uses the pulpit to try to control
people with shame. Two examples: One time there was a
special meeting about the mission of the church. He ranted
about how it was sin that we didn’t volunteer any more than
we did. He especially put the pressure on the singles
because we don’t have children; there we’re supposed to
have all this extra time on our hands that we are sinfully
wasting our time. It was more his attitude and presentation.
You went out of there, not motivated and encouraged, but
with your tail between your legs feeling like you could never
make the grade. Another incident: During one of his
sermons he was going off on people who struggle with
obesity. He was saying how that was just sin and they
should repent and stop eating so much and display some
self control. He was offensive and insensitive. I don’t want to
follow, support, or be involved with a man, or woman, like
that. You know, since I left, no one has contacted me but
you. Isn’t that interesting?"

[Jason Stauffacher]

And the fact that she walked out on Darling's Ames recognition was profound.  WOW!  I told her that took guts.  Lots of guts.  

-Jason

[theresearchpersona]

All,

This website has been therapeutic for me as I needed to know I wasn't the only one seeing the pain GCx has been passing out in "their" churches.

However, I've noticed a little too much vindictiveness in the tone lately --

Remember, many in GCx "leadership" (if not all) are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

1. Many in GCx *choose* to be led like this and don't want to know the full freedom that Christ bought for us. It's a lot harder to make your own decisions and live by them!  

2. I honestly think the "leaders" believe they are doing the best they can to serve the people in "their" church. Yes, they are confused and yes their view on leadership is absurd, but I do believe they believe it's the best for everyone.

Yes, I know most of you all were hurt by some of the "leaders" -- some worse than others -- and yes, I know many have given the benefit of the doubt. I'm not suggesting that you don't acknowledge the pain, I'm just suggesting to have a larger perspective.

Actually, I sometimes think that most of these harmful acts can be chalked up to simple willful ignorance and ambition to "lead". I think some know what they're pushing is wrong but they're tied up by other factors (salary, family, etc.) It doesn't make it better, just makes them human.

If any of you have a chance to win some of these "leaders" over, I say, forgive and help them overcome this mess. Your willingness to love them despite the pain some of them caused you will be a great witness for all.

Mercy overcomes judgment!

All Christians are commanded to oppose, expose, rebuke, and contend against error openly and publicly so long; we're commanded to be discerning, vigilant, and not to be deceived...the Church is the Lord's, not for men's visions. Its is not to be PC or acceptable or "orthodox" in the world's eyes, but rather to be washed for His eyes. Did Athanasius stop when seemingly the whole Christian community turned to heresy? No, he labored agonizingly until the truth triumphed. In the event a teacher falls into error they necessarily need correction because of the harsher judgment they're promised: and no they aren't to be given mercy (perpetually) as it's the Lord's flock they come to misguide if they're in error.

[Genevieve]

I know I've struggled with anger. Sometimes it feels like righteous anger and sometimes it doesn't. I don't want anger or bitterness to consume me, but looking at the truth of what this group (or specific leaders) has done to people is maddening. So, I guess I'd rather be angry than apathetic or blind.

So, how do we keep from sinning in our anger? How do we not turn a blind eye on the one hand or let the past consume us on the other? Anyone have any ideas?

[boboso]

I'm with you Genevieve -- I struggle often.

For the record to clarify:
1. I'm not Dr. Sam
2. I would not suggest to deny the truth of GCx's actions
3. I would not suggest to deny your experiences (or pretend the pain didn't exist)
4. Of course, use your mind to make judgments about the teaching you hear and measure against the Bible. No question -- call sin what it is.

I think I may have thought out loud about something I myself am struggling some with when I suggested objectivity (not ignorance or denial) to the forums. I am personally hoping to have enough maturity to overcome personal feeling in case one of the "leaders" needs me to help him get out of the GCx bonds.

If any of you all have had the chance to help others in "leadership" get out of this mess, I would like to hear your story.