Letter from John Hopler

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[2xA Ron]

Well, a few months back I noticed a repost of the 2010 Explanation of Criticisms, went and read it, and it got me good and mad.  As someone who had tried to resolve things for over a year privately through the "proper channels" before leaving the church and posting on my blog, I took offense to the assumption the Explanation made that people only posted critical things online about the GCC because either they were (1) offended by something way back in the past, which the GCC had already fixed, (2) had a person issue and didn't care to resolve it privately, or (3) opposed the gospel.  I was tempted to go straight to my blog with this, but so as not to prove Explanation number 2 right even in this one case, I filled out one of those "contact us" forms on the GCC website for John Hopler telling him about my disagreement with the Explanation of Criticisms.  To my surprise, he actually got back to me about it, apologized, and apparently went to some effort to have the document (which no longer represented his views) removed from the Wikipedia article where I had found it and assumed it was still current.  The link is still there, but it no longer leads to anywhere and the GCC website itself has a number of other documents which offer much more acceptable reasons for why someone might criticize the GCx.  I had suggested a more public apology since I was not the only one offended, but after the original Explanation fell off the Wikipedia article, I'd assumed that would be the end of it and posted to that effect.

However, Hopler has surprised me yet again.  He sent me the below letter and asked me if I would be willing to post it here.  I have a .pdf of it here (http://issuu.com/aaduwall/docs/2013_reconciliation_letter__gcc).  In the letter, he offers to try to resolve any concerns people bring to him, whether doctrinal or relating to a specific person.

Of the latter, I can say that I brought to him my conflict with the girl whose friendship I had lost due to complications and conflict with the church over emotional purity and dating issues (as explained in my first post http://forum.gcmwarning.com/hellos-and-testimonies/hey-look!-i'm-not-alone-here!/).  He got in touch with the pastor of my church who started wading through the church's hierarchy to investigate, which seemed to take way too much time.  But in the end, I did get back in touch with said girl.  She and the leader responsible for separating us and kicking me off the small group both apologized to me.  The girl has herself arranged to meet with me and a mutual friend (not associated with the GCC) acting as mediator (my idea, to keep her from freaking out if there's a misunderstanding and also to make sure there's someone to help me run interference on any dumb ideas she may have picked up from "council" in the church) next week to find a way to move forward in our friendship .  I'm very happy about this (hence, the happy face ), and though it does not resolve all of my concerns with my former church it is a starting point for me.  Maybe I'm a fool, but I have high hopes.  Maybe nobody here will believe the offer in Hopler's letter is genuine--and hey, maybe it's not (I obviously can't see through everything or I wouldn't have had such problems with the GCx in the first place, right?)--, but I don't know that it would hurt to try one more time.  John Hopler seems to check his email pretty regularly and generally seems more understanding and more willing to take action than anyone else I've met in GCx leadership, which is definitely an improvement.

[2xA Ron]

Oh, it seems like Issuu's .pdf viewer may be a major pain to work with for some.  The interface seems to have been designed for a smartphone or something weird like that  .  If it's too much of a problem, I can copy+paste the letter to a post.  Just let me know.

[Linda]

I'll read this more carefully later, just had time to skim it.

My first question though is why did Hopler have you post? He reads this forum and he could comment any time he wished. When we received a letter from two of our pastors last year (7 years after we left!!!!) we were told in the letter that they were asked by Hopler to write us because we post by name and he was going through the forum taking the names of people and having them contacted. (Head's up to the rest of you who are anonymous, but have important things to say, STAY ANONYMOUS!).

Secondly, the buzz word with GC is "reconciliation". I have no problem with any GC pastor. Would sit down for coffee with any of them at any time and ask about their life and family and truly care. There is nothing to reconcile. Mr. Hopler might be surprised to know that some ECC pastors (not all) have some problems with us and one, in fact, has shunned us in writing. The ball is in their court. I have nothing against them.

My problem with GC (which we spend over a year and much missed work time for my husband discussing privately) is their doctrine and practice. You do not reconcile bad doctrine. Ever. You point it out to the person who is teaching it (we did that numerous times over many months), then you leave. (In our case, MD asked us to leave rather than to stay and point out problems in their teaching.) They are not teachable.

You then, as needed, point out the bad doctrine to others being misled by it. We chose this forum since it was searchable and public. This doesn't mean you hate the person, or need to reconcile. I have Catholic friends, atheist friends, some Baha'i friends, even Obama supporting friends . No need to reconcile with them. We are friends. There is nothing between us. We disagree strongly on some important matters, but we are friends.

In the case of GC, their teaching is one that denies the Lordship of Christ. That's a big deal.

In addition, people/families are being hurt by this teaching. Their teaching is public. It needs to be addressed publicly by the leadership. Correction needs to be very public. The GC way seems to be to intimidate people to go private (so they don't have to make public correction). They love to take the teaching (or in this case the statement) down and "destroy the evidence". To my knowledge, they have never made a public correction of bad teaching.

[Linda]

A couple more thoughts.

First, it's good that Hopler realized there could be more reasons for Internet posting and added one. Exposing false teaching. Glad he recognizes that.

It is interesting that he suggests people go to the "national office" with concerns. I have several thoughts on that approach.

1. He reads this forum. He knows the concerns. He could address them here for all to see. Why do we have to do it on his terms? These are issues of public teaching. We are not talking about resolving personal offenses on the Internet. It seems to me that if he were truly concerned with the accuracy of GC teaching, he would be more than willing to clarify/correct things publicly.

2. Why is it that GC always finds fault with the messenger? In this case, Hopler suggests that people should have gone up the GC chain, so to speak. This is interesting for several reasons. First, we didn't realize there was a national organization because the local church had not made that clear. They had always presented themselves as a bunch of people who got together and started a church in Minneapolis. We didn't know they were a church plant from a church in Ames with a founding apostle. Had we known, clearly we would never have attended. We had no idea who John Hopler was. We did know that ECC was a member or two organizations: Great Commission and Willow Creek. It would never have occurred to me to contact Bill Hybels about concerns with the teaching of ECC because I understood the word "association" to be just that and not "denomination". A second reason the idea of contacting GC headquarters with our concerns was unnecessary is that our concerns were with the specific teaching of MD and BK who sit on the national board. We actually had gone to the top, so to speak and MD said they would never change. He then asked us to leave rather than to stay and point out error. So, we left.

3. The part that sort of offers the excuse about local pastors teaching things that are not on board with national policy doesn't fly with me. We are talking about things that are taught nationally (Faithwalkers, etc.) by national leaders and some of them are the "core values" of the organization.

4. Correction of error must be public. It also must be repeated as often as necessary. There must be no excuses. Blame must not be assigned. If a person is guilty of false teaching, the only appropriate thing to do is correct it humbly and as often as necessary. Private meetings are of no value when hundreds, perhaps thousands have been misled.

5. This forum is a great public place to start that process.

[Linda]

For starters, here is a link to some bad teaching that should be corrected, not just taken down.

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/bad-teaching-that-should-be-corrected/

[2xA Ron]

Well, I don't know much about your situation personally.  I haven't been on this forum that much.  As you say, Hopler does seem to read these forums but he never posts.  Maybe that's because of that statement he wrote for the NAE, or because he thinks it would only escalate it (I think I remember seeing some old posts by someone pro-GCx getting run off the forum once, maybe he's afraid that'll happen to him?).  Point is, I'm sure he has his reasons that seem perfectly legitimate to him.  You say you've done your part by speaking to these people whose initials I don't recognize (like I said, I'm a newby) and the ball is in his court.  Well, I'm sure you have your reasons for saying that which are perfectly legitimate by you.

In my own case, I know I'd done absolutely everything I could think of and then some to repair a relationship that shouldn't have been broken in the first place, that wouldn't have been broken if not for the actions of others.  For my efforts, I was told to take a hike.  I had no need to go crawling back to them and I wasn't going to...and they weren't going to come back to me either.  I said the ball was in their court, they said it was in mine.  If we'd both held to that position, we'd still be eyeing each other like strange dogs through a fence of our own stubbornness.  Thankfully, in my case I finally realized that it didn't matter who's court the stupid ball was in, it only mattered who realized first that the ball needed to be moved and worked up the guts to do it.  Despite the fact that I was the one the most wronged by false teaching, false practice, and false people, I was also the one who made the first attempt to put things right again.  Maybe I'm an idiot for taking the ball when it wasn't in my court, but at least I'm an idiot who's got his friends back and has a pretty good headstart on making them see that not everything their GCx leaders say is the very word of God.

But of course, that's my case, not yours.  I know you have every reason to feel your in the right and I know that you feel you've done your duty and done it quite well enough.  I'm not questioning that you have.  I know you say the ball is in his court.  Fine, the balls there, in his court.  I'm not questioning that it is.  I'm just questioning how much good your being in the right and doing of your duty will do yourself, him, or any of the victims of false teaching you're concerned about if you just leave the ball where it is.

I'm not an expert on these people (far from it), but unless I misread the letter, he's offering you an opportunity to make a difference for some of those people.  Now, maybe he's lying.  Maybe the opportunity's not real and all you'll do pursuing it is waste a few good emails.  Maybe he really just wants you to stop posting here.  If he does, he doesn't have the power to make you do so, even if you contact him, so really, I don't see anything you've got to lose by taking him up on the offer.  And if it doesn't pan out, well, you'll have an extra nail to put in his coffin and that of the GCx as a whole for false teaching and evil acts.

[Linda]

2XA Ron,

The best thing John Hopler could do for the cause of Christ is to publicly correct the false teaching that has been perpetuated by this group for over 40 years.

I understand that your situation was a personal offense. It was right to handle it privately.

Bad teaching is a different thing. It needs to be publicly exposed and then corrected.

I posted initials in an attempt to be kind to the pastors involved. If you go to the Board of GC page, you will find them listed. The point isn't to call attention to these men, but rather to put an emphasis on their bad teaching. (BTW, I do have some sympathy for these men. They were exposed to this heresy early in their Christian walk and have known nothing else.)

Private meetings, conversations, phone calls won't help. My concerns about teaching and those of others have been expressed on this forum. I even gave a link to some. He could start by addressing them publicly. Here. On this forum.

[2xA Ron]

Well, maybe you can talk him into doing such a thing.

I know I'm also concerned with false teaching in the GCx and I know that my personal quarrel would not have developed (or ended as badly as it did) without it.  I agree that the best way to put an end to the false teaching is for someone (or, likely, more than one someone) in GCx leadership to publicly denounce it as such.  Until then, this forum is probably as close to public as it gets.

The only problem I see with that is that this forum is not enough.  Our posts here have obviously not convinced the leadership of the GCx that it needs to repent of/take a stand against the false teaching going on in their churches.  We can post about it all we like here, but it isn't winning back anyone who lost him or herself to this stuff, nor is it preventing new people (like me, like my friends who are still in the GCx, like I girl I know who even now is getting excommunicated over stuff like this in the GCx) from getting hurt or hurting others through these false teachings.

Yes, if we see false teaching, we have a moral obligation to expose it as such, and public false teaching is not something the GCx can truly rectify by any private means.  No, we should not have to talk with them privately about what they're publicly teaching.  No, we should not have to point out privately to anyone what the GCx needs to do to set themselves straight, especially not after printing it out publicly on the forum.  We have done our part in publicly denouncing it ourselves.  We have the right to sit back and demand from this forum that the GCx do the rest.  The problem is that exercising that right won't help any of the people who are being suckered by false teaching in the GCx and hurt by as we speak.  If we really care about them more than we care about our right to stop at the limits of our duty to expose false teaching publicly, I think we ought to take a chance we're given to make a difference for such people--people who, like me a couple years ago, have no idea this forum or any higher leadership in the GCx exists but are definitely feeling the effects of problems those two (the forum and the leadership) could work out if they would both got together made an honest effort to do so (no doubt with a lot more needing to be done on the leaderships part than otherwise).  No, it's not fair that we should contact leaders privately to remind them to do what they ought to know to do already.  And no, success is not guaranteed, I realize that.  But there is a chance that some change may be made by going the extra mile here, and there is some chance of sparing future know-nothing like me who stumble into the GCx a little heartache and spiritual harm.  To me, that's better than nothing. 

[EverAStudent]

Dear 2xARon,

I am reminded from reading your last post that the minor prophets spent their lives/careers writing blogs (um...ok, writing sermons that were collected into books) against the bad doctrine and bad practices of the priests and kings, and yet, ultimately the people did not repent and both kingdoms eventually fell.  Their good work was in their sermonizing against heresy, not in how the people responded. 

Blessings.

[Linda]

Great point, EAS.

2xA Ron, to clarify. I post here to warn others about GC. I don't post here to try to persuade GC leaders that their teaching is flawed.

Please understand, we spent nearly 2 years and many hours talking with GC pastors to get to the bottom of GC teaching. When it was all said and done, we realized that some things about GC (like commitment for life and obedience to pastors) were part of their core values and what they believe makes them "special". Two of the people we spoke with sit on the national board. One of those told us they would never change and asked us to leave rather than stay and try to change things.

When we left, they asked us to stick to a 2 sentence generic statement of why and to "say nothing more" if asked. (Obviously, we did not agree to that. Ironically, no one asked, but that's probably because I learned from someone much later that she had been told to not ask us why we left. As a side note, every time I tell my non-GC Christian friends about the "Statement of Silence" their jaws drop. This is clearly crossing a line.) They also sent a letter to us telling us they thought we were wrong and then, without our knowledge or permission, they copied that letter and SENT IT TO TWO OF OUR GROWN CHILDREN who still attended.

GC has been dealing with the consequences of their flawed teaching for a long time. It landed them on cult watch lists. They even wrote a 13 page statement of error (which we heard of by Googling, but our pastor, the one on the national board, couldn't find a copy of). When we finally saw the statement (after a call to Larry Pile), we realized that most of the things they apologized for were things they were still doing and teaching and the things we were troubled by. They don't want to change. They think their teaching is correct. It's a core value.

I post here so people will understand that there is something more going on at GC than meets the eye and when people do a Google search, like we did, they will find info (especially quotes from GC messages) that will help them get an accurate picture of the teaching.

Hopler is aware of the issues. He can listen to the Faithwalkers messages and other messages just as easily as anyone. He even has access to the ones they removed (but never made public correction of like Rick Whitney's 2008 Commitment for Life). When an intelligent person listens to a talk, is in a position to correct the teaching, and does nothing, you have to assume it's because they like it that way. There is no need to personally contact him. He knows. It wouldn't help for him to tell me, "Yeah, I know this teaching is bad. I'll take it down. I'm sorry we taught bad stuff." I already know it's bad. They don't need to take the talks down, they need to stop teaching the stuff. What would help would be if they would very publicly denounce their commitment for life and obedience to elders in all matters teaching. It would take a lot of doing and they would have to repeat themselves and prove their sincerity, but that's what would make it "right".

[Linda]

2xA Ron, you said, "But there is a chance that some change may be made by going the extra mile here, and there is some chance of sparing future know-nothings like me who stumble into the GCx a little heartache and spiritual harm," and I didn't catch that till just now.

I am so sorry. This seems to be the legacy of GC. Heartache and spiritual harm. Lost friendships. Shunning. People who love Jesus and his true Bride who find themselves alone and confused. It's a horrible legacy.

Like a restaurant where the presentation is lovely and the fellow diners are fun to be around, but the customers get food poisoning, sometimes you have to warn people to not eat there because it's not healthy and they will get sick.

[2xA Ron]

I want to make one thing clear.  I am not saying we should stop posting on this forum.  I am not against warning people publicly.  Maybe that's a misunderstanding here?  I don't know.

What I am saying is that our public warnings on this forum and on our blogs aren't making much more than a minor dent in the casualties.  In general, the people who need to see them (like I did before and during my time at the GCx) don't until its far too late for them to do anything but pick up the pieces and to confirm what they already know.

I like your restaurant analogy:

Like a restaurant where the presentation is lovely and the fellow diners are fun to be around, but the customers get food poisoning, sometimes you have to warn people to not eat there because it's not healthy and they will get sick.

Except we aren't really warning people not to eat there from a stand outside the restaurant, but from the Emergency Room of the hospital.  By the time they get there, they're already sick and all we can do is confirm to them where it came from.  We are not, however, taking any effective steps to prevent them from getting sick in the first place or to stop the restaurant from poisoning people.  The management, however, has declared it's willing to talk to us.  But you're saying we shouldn't since the obviously already know they're poisoning people.  So why bother?

Why bother indeed, when we can sit here cozy in our booth at the Emergency Room telling people who come in to get their stomach pumped that they really ought to avoid that restaurant?  It would be way too much bother to pick up a phone and call the manager who's supposed to be responsible for not getting those people sick in the first place, or (failing him) the board overseeing restaurant safety (the NAE in this case) which is supposed to shut such people down to try to convince some people with the power to prevent cases from walking into our Emergency Rooms that they really ought to get up and do their jobs.  Of course, if they happen to wander over to our stall, we'll be happy to talk to them, but heaven forbid we should actually contact them ourselves, especially since one of them just gave us his number and a personal invitation to do just that.  No, far better to just sit here and watch new cases walk in and remind them that the food they're vomiting up is poison.

EverAStudent is right, a lot of prophets spent their time in very public rants.  But a lot of them also went privately before kings and priests, even when they knew these people would not repent.  If we want to style ourselves as prophets but only deal in public sermons even when we have the opportunity to do otherwise, I think we're hypocrites.  So also, if we want to say we care about the people who are being hurt by GCx teaching but won't take a chance on a phone call or an email that might do them more good than the forum we're posting now (which they won't see until it's too late), we also prove ourselves untrue.

Forgive me for saying so, but it seems that if we are unwilling to even try to put a stop to heresy and its hurts when we are told we have an opportunity to do so we prove that we really don't care about the heresy or the hurt at all.  If we did, we'd take that chance and try to stop it.  If we don't, we obviously have other priorities that override those concerns (perhaps some will say we just like denouncing heresy too much to actually do anything about stopping it, or maybe we'd rather it didn't stop 'cause then we'd have nothing to complain about).  In the end, we prove that the mindset behind the 2010 Explanation of Criticisms was right after all: we really are just people who love to talk trash about the church: because when the church offers us a chance to change it, we refuse--not because it would interfere in our missions here on this forum, but because changing the church is of no real importance to us (the only thing we'd care about then is talking trash about it).

I hope that is a gross mischaracterization of what this forum is about, but if I'm wrong then I'm very sorry I joined it.

[EverAStudent]

I think maybe there really is a divergent range of sincere opinions as to why this forum does exist.  For my part, I use it to document GC abuse so as to warn future congregants that if they join a GC church they are doing so with full knowledge about those past abuses so as to guard themselves and the current church against repeating them.

If a candidate congregant does not avail himself/herself of the internet so as to research the background of the church he/she is about to join, then my warnings will go unheard.  But no forum has the capability to make the willfully-ignorant invest sufficient care or discernment to conduct research before making such important decisions as joining a church.  Resources like this one are for those who already take church membership seriously enough so as to conduct due-diligence research before joining.

Perhaps other members of this forum see the forum as a mechanism for changing GC from unsound doctrine to sound doctrine, and doing so from the outside in.  And perhaps such changes can and will occur, which will be a good outcome.  But that is not the goal I have for being on the forum.  My goal is to inform and warn, and in the worst situations, to comfort those who got smashed on the hidden reefs of GC's bad doctrines and practices.

When my wife and I left GC we explained our observations about their aberrant doctrine to the leadership.  The were angered and instead of repenting began sputtering out excuses, lies, and slanders about others so as to avoid having to address their own culpabilities.  It is not that they did not know what their unsound doctrines were, they just did not want to change them.  So, as for confronting GC leadership head-on about their poor doctrine and sinful practices, I have done that already.  

So long as concerned parents and sober-minded potential recruits into GC have a place to go to become informed about GC's history (and GC's present activities and beliefs since many new members have provided updates on this forum) then I feel this forum has served its biblical purpose well.  

...and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. (1 Thessalonians 4:6)

When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand. But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life. (Ezekiel 33:8-9)

One of the few illegitimate uses of this forum would be to stop warning others and to pretend that GC's history is no better and no worse than any other church.  If we stop warning others, we have failed in the biblical mandate.

[Linda]

EAS, well said. Thank you.

It is not that they did not know what their unsound doctrines were, they just did not want to change them.

Totally agree with this.

2xA Ron, please understand, people have been going to GC leaders for nearly 40 years with the same concerns. John Hopler is fully aware of what many consider harmful teaching. My husband and I spent many hours bringing up these concerns with many different GC pastors. Two of those men sit on the national board. Mark Darling told us they would never change and asked us to leave rather than try to stay and change things. When people ask you to leave, the polite thing to do is leave. So, we left.

There is no need for "reconciliation". There is a need for public correction of error.

[araignee19]

I personally think one other purpose of this forum is to help those who have been hurt by GCx to heal. Finding this forum was instrumental in my own healing. It showed me I was not alone, and that the things I was struggling with were real and valid. It also has helped me to see what the false teachings I had accepted were, and to start to change them in my mind.

If GCx won't change (and I know many people have been trying to get them to change for years) then they will continue to hurt people. Those people who have been and will be hurt need a place where they can safely process through some of the hurt and find some answers. This forum provides that, and I don't think it is wrong that the healing process is public in this case.

[Janet Easson Martin]

2XRon,

I think its great you're very concerned about those still in GCX, and that this concern is driving you to seek a way to better help them.  Perhaps God is just around the corner from bringing certain things together to do this.  I personally believe from what he has spoken to me through his word that bringing false teachers to exposure and their unbiblical ravaging ways to an end is his work and he is sending his message to any who will hear.  I tried to find this site about two years before I actually did discover it, but I believe it was not God's timing for me.  Several people while still in GCX or just leaving have posted that God led them to it.  I believe numbers of people are being effected and helped by it, but many of them don't necessarily choose to post.  

I also hear your frustration with the seeming slow results of it, and have wondered myself why more does not seem to be "happening" too.  Then I recall that it was God hinmself who spoke to me (through a Beth Moore Bible Study "When Godly People Do Ungodly Things") to even approach this outreach two-and-a-half years ago.  It was something I attempted to address on my own nearly 20 years ago, but God knew I was not yet ready; and so he immediately closed the door.  Like many others posting here, I know and believe it was God who supernaturally brought me here at just the right time.  

God is teaching me to stop looking for evidence of "something happening"; and instead to begin praising him for what he has already said in His Word he will do (before I SEE it).  He is training me again to walk by faith, not sight.  He is so much more patient that I can even comprehend.  I feel from what I believe he has said to me (through quiet times and bible study) that perhaps he is giving his people TIME to turn away from trusting in GCX to trusting Him Alone, patiently waiting for them to turn back to him before he must do something more drastic to get their attention.  It really does hurt him more than it hurts us to have to discipline us in order for us to correct our ways.  I personally do not like his discipline, but I know from his word its because he loves me.  He never WANTS to crumble things in our lives, but sometimes it is the means necessary.  The recent post "Blindsided Believers"  was not posted by me because I felt like writing it.  God would not let me have peace until I wrote it.  I felt it was urgently on his heart to warn his people out of GCX.  Much of what I post is specifically prompted by God.  This is his work and his mission he has chosen us to be a part of.  

Perhaps he may be calling you to do something more or something different in regard to this work of his.  I'll pray for you in this.  I do believe God HAS a next step.  I don't know what that is or when.  But I do know what he has promised and assured me (personally) of regarding GCX, in coming to "nothing".  I know for me that my present step is to PRAISE HIM for it even though I can't see it yet.

Hope you weren't too worn out by my longwindedness, but wanted you to be encouraged that GOD IS WORKING IT!

"I will go before you and will level the mountains;
I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron.
I will give you the treasures of darkness, riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name."

Isaiah 45:2-3

Learning to Walk By FAITH instead of Sight,

Janet Easson Martin

[Huldah]

I have no idea who's reading this forum. I only know that if something like this had been available back when I was in college, my parents and I might have been spared much heartache. Who can say whether or not some anonymous reader has been helped by this forum? It may be someone none of us will ever meet or hear of, this side of heaven.

That's why I hope those who have something to say here will keep saying it. It's not just about the leadership, much as we'd love to see them renounce their errors. It's about the followers or potential followers who can still be reached. I ignored many red flags to become part of Solid Rock, which was admittedly foolish of me. Even so, I do believe I'd have taken it to heart if there had been a website like this one. I could have left SR/GC with much less trauma, or better yet, stayed out of it in the first place.

[2xA Ron]

I do appreciate this forum as a place for warning others.  Myself, like araignee19, I found it mostly a place for healing, the warning parts coming a bit too late.  I'm not saying we should stop posting here.  In his letter, Hopler doesn't even say we should stop posting here.  All I'm asking is why we don't do something more in addition to posting here.

I realize that many of us, including myself, talked to leadership about our problems until we were blue in the face and were then shown to the door.  I realize that there is every reason to believe that talking with leaders again is unnecessary and will accomplish nothing.  I understand that the rational thing to do seems to be to give up on talking to the leaders and blow off Hopler's letter as just a bit of GCx propaganda.  Maybe that's the right thing to do, too, but it doesn't seem that way to me.

I still care about some of the people in leadership at GCx.  I still care about the people who are still going there, about the people who will go there.  I don't want to see them hurt.  Maybe posting here is all I can do for them, but maybe it isn't.  Maybe trying to talk the leadership into mending the GCx's ways is a lost cause, but it's also a cause I care about.  I would feel like I was betraying them if I just gave up.  I can't because I care.  Maybe not everyone is so compelled, and maybe someone smarter than me would be cool enough to sit back and let the GCx come to them and come to its senses by itself (which, by all indications, will happen the Tuesday after Hell freezes over), I don't know.  I know I can't do that though.  Whatever else they may be, the men and women in the GCx are a part of my Christian family and if I've learned anything it's that you don't give up on family, even if they give up on you.

[EverAStudent]

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1)

I believe that the Lord directs our memories and desires (our "hearts" being all of our memories, thoughts, and wishes put together) to wherever He wishes.  Therefore, if a righteous desire dawns upon us, like going back and talking yet one more time to a GC pastor, it may be that such an idea is the gentle prodding of the Spirit.  It is not a prophecy or a commandment to be sure, but it may be a good idea to pursue for the person who gets that idea, though not being a prophetic commandment it is subjective and optional.

For those of us who whose hearts find prompting in other righteous directions we are free to also follow those alternative avenues of actions as well. 

This is not a matter of right and wrong, but of which person God most strongly stirs to act in any number of divergent and proper ways.   

[Huldah]

2xA Ron, please don't think my post was directed at you. I was speaking in generalities. It would have been so helpful to have had a source of information like this when I "made a lifetime commitment to GC" (which I never did, nor was I asked to; I was simply informed after the fact that, "God put you here, so only God can remove you").

It's my profound hope that others are being helped by this forum, even if they never join or post.

I appreciate the fact that you're still trying to reason with the leadership. I don't believe God is calling me to do that (and I have my doubts about whether they'd listen to a woman anyway), but if you're called, then may God reward your efforts.